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Does Nontrinitarianism have any kind of "Apostolic Succession?"

Volnutt

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I've been discussing this some with a Nontrinitarian recently. I maintain that, whatever Scriptural exegetical arguments one might make against the Trinity (not that I accept those arguments), it's ultimately a moot point simply because Arianism (or any form of Nontrinitarianism) failed to survive as a movement from antiquity to today. If the true Church is meant to be Nontrinitarian, then the gates of Hell will not triumph over her no matter how much persecution the Nicaea-accepting Empire might throw her way, right?

Best as I can tell, Arianism enjoyed official sanction from the Visigoth monarchs up until the 8th Century or so, after which time it vanished as an institution until Michael Servetus, Grzegorz Paweł z Brzezin, Faustus Sozzini, and others revived it in the 16th Century--for it to take root in Poland, Transylvania, and elsewhere and give rise to the modern Unitarian churches. But they are not in the same lineage as Arius or the Ebionites (maybe), they're Johnny-come-lately imitators just as much as the Jehovah's Witnesses are.

Claims that "they must have existed in the Middle Ages as small persecuted bands in that nobody has ever heard about," seem insufficient to me. At least the Landmark Baptists can make fallacious appeals to the Bogomils, Cathars, etc. Neo-Arians don't seem to have anything for the better half of a millennium.

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way or know the history incompletely, though.
 

Volnutt

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hecma925 said:
It is not the Apostolic faith, so no.
Agreed, but before one can even get to point about arguing that point, it seems to lose simply because it has a gap of successions of any kind for centuries.
 

Luke

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Jehovah's witnesses?  There are also some branches of Christianity who consider Jesus either to be a man or someone created by God.
 

Volnutt

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NicholasMyra said:
Eh, maybe? I mean, the insistence on belief in Muhammad for salvation probably wouldn't have been recognizable to Arius.
 

Volnutt

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Luke said:
Jehovah's witnesses?  There are also some branches of Christianity who consider Jesus either to be a man or someone created by God.
Right, today. But my question is "Where were the Nontrinitarian bishops after the kingdoms of the Goths either died out or quit being Arian?" If Nontrinitarianism is going to have any chance to be taken seriously, it needs to show that it could possibly be the church that Christ said would not be triumphed over by Hell.

Now, I believe in the Trinity and agree that it's not that, but I'm just saying that it seems like a complete nonstarter.
 

Tzimis

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Some Arian Protestant groups have figured out a way of twisting scripture and bypass apostolic succession. They claim that the churches in asia minor are a future event rather than historical. So they name themselves after these churches. Here is an example.  https://www.pcog.org/
 

Volnutt

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Tzimis said:
Some Arian Protestant groups have figured out a way of twisting scripture and bypass apostolic succession. They claim that the churches in asia minor are a future event rather than historical. So they name themselves after these churches. Here is an example.  https://www.pcog.org/
Yeah, I'd say it's about the only way they could do it but it seems pretty silly to me in light of Matthew 16:17-19.
 

andrewlya

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I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
 

Briven

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andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
 

andrewlya

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Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
 

Arachne

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andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
 

Briven

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andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
It's what I call Arians who follow the heresiarch Mohammed's ideas. He took inspiration from one of your friends in the desert.
 

biro

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Our traditions were made by Christ. Christ is True God and True Man.

They are not man-made traditions.
 

Ainnir

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andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
andrewlya, either discuss and debate or don't.  Avoid ad hominems such as calling people brainwashed.  I'm giving you 20 points because this rodeo isn't new to you.  If you'd like to appeal this decision, you may do so via PM.  --Ainnir
 

andrewlya

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Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
 

andrewlya

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biro said:
Our traditions were made by Christ. Christ is True God and True Man.

They are not man-made traditions.
Ok, show me a verse where Christ's says we can bow down before icons of the saints?
 

andrewlya

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Ainnir said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
andrewlya, either discuss and debate or don't.  Avoid ad hominems such as calling people brainwashed.  I'm giving you 20 points because this rodeo isn't new to you.  If you'd like to appeal this decision, you may do so via PM.  --Ainnir
Standard persecution...I bless you
 

andrewlya

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Briven said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
It's what I call Arians who follow the heresiarch Mohammed's ideas. He took inspiration from one of your friends in the desert.
What do you know, Arius was hundreds years before your muhammed. I follow Bible not Arius.

And you idol kisser...I used to be one like that,I thank Yahweh my Father has opened my eyes.
 

biro

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andrewlya said:
Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
OUR TRADITIONS ARE NOT MAN-MADE.

 

Briven

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andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
It's what I call Arians who follow the heresiarch Mohammed's ideas. He took inspiration from one of your friends in the desert.
What do you know, Arius was hundreds years before your muhammed. I follow Bible not Arius.

And you idol kisser...I used to be one like that,I thank Yahweh my Father has opened my eyes.
Mohammed isn't "mine", he founded the heresy Islam. Are you this ignorant in the deep South?
 

biro

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andrewlya said:
biro said:
Our traditions were made by Christ. Christ is True God and True Man.

They are not man-made traditions.
Ok, show me a verse where Christ's says we can bow down before icons of the saints?
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.


There you go. All humans are made in the image and likeness of God. Icon means image.
 

Volnutt

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andrewlya said:
Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
Her point is that Christ (the Word of God) gives us truths that don't necessarily have to be spelled out in the Bible.

andrewlya said:
biro said:
Our traditions were made by Christ. Christ is True God and True Man.

They are not man-made traditions.
Ok, show me a verse where Christ's says we can bow down before icons of the saints?
Romans 10:15 and Acts 5:15 are both instructive, then there's also the fact that they were not just encouraged but ordered to bow to an image in Numbers 21.

But if you don't grasp the idea of authoritative unwritten tradition, we're likely not going to get too far.
 

andrewlya

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biro said:
andrewlya said:
Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
OUR TRADITIONS ARE NOT MAN-MADE.
Really, where do you get traditions of bowing down before icons, kiss them etc? Praying to saints instead of our Father as Commanded in the Bible? Those traditions are not Bible based. So, where did you get them from?THINK before answering.
 

Arachne

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andrewlya said:
Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
As a fellow member put it some time ago: "The Bible?  You mean the library the Church received, collated, maintained, and canonized?  You're welcome."
 

Ainnir

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andrewlya said:
Ainnir said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
andrewlya, either discuss and debate or don't.  Avoid ad hominems such as calling people brainwashed.  I'm giving you 20 points because this rodeo isn't new to you.  If you'd like to appeal this decision, you may do so via PM.  --Ainnir
Standard persecution...I bless you
Another 20 points for publicly complaining about moderation.  You may direct appeals to Dominika, global moderator.  Thanks.  --Ainnir
 

Volnutt

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andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
It's what I call Arians who follow the heresiarch Mohammed's ideas. He took inspiration from one of your friends in the desert.
What do you know, Arius was hundreds years before your muhammed. I follow Bible not Arius.

And you idol kisser...I used to be one like that,I thank Yahweh my Father has opened my eyes.
Strictly speaking, you don't follow the Bible- you follow Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter... ie. all men who spoke inspired by God. The Orthodox do the same thing, it's just that their pool of teachers is larger than just the ones in the canon.

And, you may not want to claim Arius, but you kind of need him. Part of the point of the OP is that his movement is your only shot at having some kind of real continuity with the Early Church.
 

biro

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andrewlya said:
biro said:
andrewlya said:
Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
OUR TRADITIONS ARE NOT MAN-MADE.
Really, where do you get traditions of bowing down before icons, kiss them etc? Praying to saints instead of our Father as Commanded in the Bible? Those traditions are not Bible based. So, where did you get them from?THINK before answering.
NUMBERS 21: 8-9.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+21&version=DRA

8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.

9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.
 

andrewlya

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Briven said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
It's what I call Arians who follow the heresiarch Mohammed's ideas. He took inspiration from one of your friends in the desert.
What do you know, Arius was hundreds years before your muhammed. I follow Bible not Arius.

And you idol kisser...I used to be one like that,I thank Yahweh my Father has opened my eyes.
Mohammed isn't "mine", he founded the heresy Islam. Are you this ignorant in the deep South?
I don't know what you are talking about, let's just leave it at that.
 

andrewlya

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biro said:
andrewlya said:
biro said:
Our traditions were made by Christ. Christ is True God and True Man.

They are not man-made traditions.
Ok, show me a verse where Christ's says we can bow down before icons of the saints?
And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.


There you go. All humans are made in the image and likeness of God. Icon means image.
So, where does it tell us to bow down and kiss them images?
 

andrewlya

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Volnutt said:
andrewlya said:
Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
Her point is that Christ (the Word of God) gives us truths that don't necessarily have to be spelled out in the Bible.

andrewlya said:
biro said:
Our traditions were made by Christ. Christ is True God and True Man.

They are not man-made traditions.
Ok, show me a verse where Christ's says we can bow down before icons of the saints?
Romans 10:15 and Acts 5:15 are both instructive, then there's also the fact that they were not just encouraged but ordered to bow to an image in Numbers 21.

But if you don't grasp the idea of authoritative unwritten tradition, we're likely not going to get too far.
Peter was alive, then. Why do you pray to saints, based on which verse?

24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

You see Peter did not allow a man to fall before his feet,so why do you fall before the icon of Peter? If he did not allow bowing before him when he was around why would he accept you venerating,falling before his image??
 

andrewlya

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biro said:
andrewlya said:
biro said:
andrewlya said:
Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
I say the Bible, you place man made traditions and your church above the Bible-shame on you
OUR TRADITIONS ARE NOT MAN-MADE.
Really, where do you get traditions of bowing down before icons, kiss them etc? Praying to saints instead of our Father as Commanded in the Bible? Those traditions are not Bible based. So, where did you get them from?THINK before answering.
NUMBERS 21: 8-9.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers+21&version=DRA

8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.

9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.
This is NOT  Command to venerate IMAGES of the saints is it?
The Bible prohibits it!
 

RaphaCam

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Volnutt said:
NicholasMyra said:
Eh, maybe? I mean, the insistence on belief in Muhammad for salvation probably wouldn't have been recognizable to Arius.
Muslims would argue the contrary, though. Ebionism definitely inspired Islam in some sense, but Muslims have some doctrines that would be abhorred by any Christian sect I've ever heard of, such as the denial that Christ is the Son of God.
 

andrewlya

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RaphaCam said:
Volnutt said:
NicholasMyra said:
Eh, maybe? I mean, the insistence on belief in Muhammad for salvation probably wouldn't have been recognizable to Arius.
Muslims would argue the contrary, though. Ebionism definitely inspired Islam in some sense, but Muslims have some doctrines that would be abhorred by any Christian sect I've ever heard of, such as the denial that Christ is the Son of God.
Agree!
 

Volnutt

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RaphaCam said:
Volnutt said:
NicholasMyra said:
Eh, maybe? I mean, the insistence on belief in Muhammad for salvation probably wouldn't have been recognizable to Arius.
Muslims would argue the contrary, though. Ebionism definitely inspired Islam in some sense, but Muslims have some doctrines that would be abhorred by any Christian sect I've ever heard of, such as the denial that Christ is the Son of God.
Yeah, it doesn't make too much sense for a modern Nontrinitarian Christian to try and claim that Islam gives them some kind of unbroken chain to antiquity.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Arachne said:
andrewlya said:
Briven said:
andrewlya said:
I'd like to get involved in your discussion but I know you are too stiff necked being brainwashed by pagan man made traditions. It's easier to reason with Protestants because they put their trust on the Word of God that is the Bible but you Orthodox and Catholics alike put church and man made traditions above the Bible, so anything I would try to prove you would be out of the Bible but you don't follow it. You follow your church and traditions. As Yahweh our Elohim says NOT to add anything to His Word and this is what you do.No wonder you are in a such a mess..

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.''-Deuteronomy 4:2,
:'in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”Matthew 15:9 &
'Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION of MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.'-Colossians 2:8 &
Galatians 1:8-9
'But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!' We must be careful if we heed the teachings contrary the Gospel that we have received...
The devil has truly pulled wool over your eyes and turned you into a pseudo-mohammedist.
Is it what you call people who follow the Word of God rather than man made traditions?
The Word of God is a person, not a book.
Unnff, theology...
 
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