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easter calculation

Jason.Wike

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Ok, so I know the OE church uses the oldest method of calculating Easter but that is pretty much it.

Does anyone know of a website that explains, or can someone explain, how it is calculated and why the west changed it?

I think it has something to do with that the Jews changed how they calculate Passover and they followed along, sort of like how most Protestants use the Masoretic text... but I could be wrong.
 

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The west changed their calculation of Easter when Pope Gregory XIII changed the calendar. Becasue of the difference in calendars caused by this change, we now have two different ways of calculating Easter, neither of which have anything to do with the Jewish religion.
 

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Pascha is celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

More info: http://www.dneoca.org/articles/dateofpascha0593.html

The east/west difference owes to the 13-day difference in the two calendars, thus the vernal equinox can differ. Depending on when the vernal equinox is, they can be up to 5 weeks apart.

As far as I know, Roman Catholics use the same formula. They just use the Gregorian calendar. The canons that both churches hold in common forbid the use of the Jewish paschalion for calculating the date of Pascha.
 

Jason.Wike

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Thanks.

But, the vernal equinox isn't really ambiguous so shouldn't they still come out to the same day?
 

LizaSymonenko

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age234 said:
Pascha is celebrated on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

More info: http://www.dneoca.org/articles/dateofpascha0593.html

The east/west difference owes to the 13-day difference in the two calendars, thus the vernal equinox can differ. Depending on when the vernal equinox is, they can be up to 5 weeks apart.

As far as I know, Roman Catholics use the same formula. They just use the Gregorian calendar. The canons that both churches hold in common forbid the use of the Jewish paschalion for calculating the date of Pascha.
That's not exactly correct.  It's not the first astronomical full moon that you see in the night sky, but, the Paschal Full Moon.

This year the PFM falls on the 11th of April, and therefore, Pascha falls on the Sunday after that, which is the 15th.

 

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age234 said:
The canons that both churches hold in common forbid the use of the Jewish paschalion for calculating the date of Pascha.
This seems to be a matter of dispute. Some argue that the rule is not simply to not use the Jewish paschalion, but that the Christian Pascha must come after the Jewish Passover.

I'm not qualified to weigh in on who's right, but I'd be interested to see a discussion of this.
 

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Jason.Wike said:
Thanks.

But, the vernal equinox isn't really ambiguous so shouldn't they still come out to the same day?
I think so, and that's why my head is spinning.
 

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Jason.Wike said:
Thanks.

But, the vernal equinox isn't really ambiguous so shouldn't they still come out to the same day?
In the ancient world, getting everyone in the Christian world to follow the same astronomical calculations was difficult, so, for purposes of calculating Pascha, the "vernal equinox" was affixed to a date (March 21) rather than constantly gleaned from the current movements of the heavens. As the Julian calendar drifts, so the Julian vernal equinox continually drifts away from the actual vernal equinox.
 

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This link http://www.factmonster.com/spot/easter1.html is to a page on "Fact Monster" that comments on all of this, I am certainly not in a place to verify it, but I got the link from my aunt who is a Matushka if that helps.
 

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Does it really matter as long as we are celebrating it after fasting for forty days?
 

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Iconodule said:
age234 said:
The canons that both churches hold in common forbid the use of the Jewish paschalion for calculating the date of Pascha.
This seems to be a matter of dispute. Some argue that the rule is not simply to not use the Jewish paschalion, but that the Christian Pascha must come after the Jewish Passover.

I'm not qualified to weigh in on who's right, but I'd be interested to see a discussion of this.
I also thought that we could not have Pascha before Passover and that this was decided at the First council at Nicea.  Is that true?
 

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PrincessMommy said:
Iconodule said:
age234 said:
The canons that both churches hold in common forbid the use of the Jewish paschalion for calculating the date of Pascha.
This seems to be a matter of dispute. Some argue that the rule is not simply to not use the Jewish paschalion, but that the Christian Pascha must come after the Jewish Passover.

I'm not qualified to weigh in on who's right, but I'd be interested to see a discussion of this.
I also thought that we could not have Pascha before Passover and that this was decided at the First council at Nicea.  Is that true?
Undoubtedly there will be people who will insist that it is true. The problem I have with that is that it makes the determination of Pascha dependent upon the Jewish calendar which MUST be consulted if we are going to assure ourselves that Paschal follows the Jewish celebration of Passover. I find it hard to believe that this was the intention of the Fathers at Nicea.

I have read some discussion on forums that describe an evolution of the Jewish method of calculating Passover and that this was what was to be avoided: following the Jews in their new method.

A time machine would be helpful at this point to know exactly what the thinking was  :).
 

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I wouldnt mind revisiting this.

Is it possible that we arent calculating this as accurately as possible? I have a hard time understanding why we use the Gregorian calendar for all our feasts except for this one. I know this issue is obnoxiously complicated, and it always has been. Are there any recent efforts to rectify this issue, and possibly get everyone on the same page?
 

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Holy Light descends after the date in Orthodox calculation so I think is not wise to modernize.More than that some churches in communion follow old calendar anyway so why change ?
 

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pasadi97 said:
Holy Light descends after the date in Orthodox calculation so I think is not wise to modernize.More than that some churches in communion follow old calendar anyway so why change ?
As I understand the main reason we celebrate Pascha by the Julian is so we all celebrate on the same day.  I figure the reason we don't make the Old Calendar people change is because the date issue is more of a sticking point for them.  As we are more flexible calendarically speaking we are willing to make the adjustment.
 

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homedad76 said:
pasadi97 said:
Holy Light descends after the date in Orthodox calculation so I think is not wise to modernize.More than that some churches in communion follow old calendar anyway so why change ?
As I understand the main reason we celebrate Pascha by the Julian is so we all celebrate on the same day.  I figure the reason we don't make the Old Calendar people change is because the date issue is more of a sticking point for them.  As we are more flexible calendarically speaking we are willing to make the adjustment.
You mean all the Orthodox celebrate on the same day? And when you say "Old Calendar" are you referring to the Old Julian Calendar (as opposed to the new/revised) or Julian altogether?

Sorry. Calendars have always confused me.
 

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Timon said:
homedad76 said:
pasadi97 said:
Holy Light descends after the date in Orthodox calculation so I think is not wise to modernize.More than that some churches in communion follow old calendar anyway so why change ?
As I understand the main reason we celebrate Pascha by the Julian is so we all celebrate on the same day.  I figure the reason we don't make the Old Calendar people change is because the date issue is more of a sticking point for them.  As we are more flexible calendarically speaking we are willing to make the adjustment.
You mean all the Orthodox celebrate on the same day? And when you say "Old Calendar" are you referring to the Old Julian Calendar (as opposed to the new/revised) or Julian altogether?

Sorry. Calendars have always confused me.
Same here.
 

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homedad76 said:
pasadi97 said:
Holy Light descends after the date in Orthodox calculation so I think is not wise to modernize.More than that some churches in communion follow old calendar anyway so why change ?
As I understand the main reason we celebrate Pascha by the Julian is so we all celebrate on the same day.  I figure the reason we don't make the Old Calendar people change is because the date issue is more of a sticking point for them.  As we are more flexible calendarically speaking we are willing to make the adjustment.
Indeed.
 

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I know this has been beaten to death here, but for the sake of my own understanding, someone please verify if this is correct. I want to be able to clearly explain this to friends and family if necessary.

The reason that we celebrate Easter on a different day than the West is because we still use the Julian Calendar to calculate Easter. We developed a way to calculate when Easter would be that was pretty accurate. Over time, it became less accurate as our calculations didnt actually match what was happening in the sky. The Gregorian calendar corrects these issues. (With leap years?) We did revise the Julian Calendar to match the Gregorian for the most part, but we still use the original Julian Calendar for Easter as we believe the Church (Orthodox Church) should celebrate Easter all together as some people who are particularly attached to the "old" calendar dont want to switch to the revised. Celebrating together is more important than fussing over calendars since the God whos resurrection we celebrate is not bound by time or calendars anyways.

Does that seem like an OK explanation? If not, should anything be changed?

 

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Timon said:
I know this has been beaten to death here, but for the sake of my own understanding, someone please verify if this is correct. I want to be able to clearly explain this to friends and family if necessary.

The reason that we celebrate Easter on a different day than the West is because we still use the Julian Calendar to calculate Easter. We developed a way to calculate when Easter would be that was pretty accurate. Over time, it became less accurate as our calculations didnt actually match what was happening in the sky. The Gregorian calendar corrects these issues. (With leap years?) We did revise the Julian Calendar to match the Gregorian for the most part, but we still use the original Julian Calendar for Easter as we believe the Church (Orthodox Church) should celebrate Easter all together as some people who are particularly attached to the "old" calendar dont want to switch to the revised. Celebrating together is more important than fussing over calendars since the God whos resurrection we celebrate is not bound by time or calendars anyways.

Does that seem like an OK explanation? If not, should anything be changed?
I would agree that you've kept it down to a simple summary. Just a couple of points (that don't really affect what you've already said): The Revised Julian Calendar that many of us use is actually somewhat more accurate than the Gregorian - the formula for calculating leap years is more complex and the difference won't show itself until AD 2400 I believe; also, I think the mathematical formulae that determine the full moon differ slightly between the Orthodox and Gregorian calculations which is why the two Easters are a week apart this year. You can easily search out sites that give a far more detailed explanation than any of us ordinary mortals really ought to know  :).

The last sentence of your main paragraph ought to be repeated every time the old vs new calendar debate surfaces.
 

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genesisone said:
Timon said:
I know this has been beaten to death here, but for the sake of my own understanding, someone please verify if this is correct. I want to be able to clearly explain this to friends and family if necessary.

The reason that we celebrate Easter on a different day than the West is because we still use the Julian Calendar to calculate Easter. We developed a way to calculate when Easter would be that was pretty accurate. Over time, it became less accurate as our calculations didnt actually match what was happening in the sky. The Gregorian calendar corrects these issues. (With leap years?) We did revise the Julian Calendar to match the Gregorian for the most part, but we still use the original Julian Calendar for Easter as we believe the Church (Orthodox Church) should celebrate Easter all together as some people who are particularly attached to the "old" calendar dont want to switch to the revised. Celebrating together is more important than fussing over calendars since the God whos resurrection we celebrate is not bound by time or calendars anyways.

Does that seem like an OK explanation? If not, should anything be changed?
I would agree that you've kept it down to a simple summary. Just a couple of points (that don't really affect what you've already said): The Revised Julian Calendar that many of us use is actually somewhat more accurate than the Gregorian - the formula for calculating leap years is more complex and the difference won't show itself until AD 2400 I believe; also, I think the mathematical formulae that determine the full moon differ slightly between the Orthodox and Gregorian calculations which is why the two Easters are a week apart this year. You can easily search out sites that give a far more detailed explanation than any of us ordinary mortals really ought to know  :).

The last sentence of your main paragraph ought to be repeated every time the old vs new calendar debate surfaces.
Thanks! And a simple summary is what I'm looking for. Maybe is just my inner convert speaking, but I really wish we were all on the same page. East and West alike. I guess its my desire to celebrate the same time as the rest of my family and friends. It seems like we are the ones who are being stubborn. I know the Julian Calendar is what was used at the Ecumenical Councils, but surely it would have been a more accurate calendar like we have today if the science was around back then. It seems that Orthodoxy is perfectly happy to work alongside science rather than attempt to contradict it like many modern forms of Christianity, but for some reason the calendar issue we dont seem to want to.

Those thoughts are just things that roll around in my brain if I'm honest. Im not particularly attached to them. Even though I just shared some honest feelings, Im capable of accepting, with humility, that the Church surely has reasons for being cautious about this issue that are far greater than my understandings.
 

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http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/roadsfromemmaus/2015/03/31/no-pascha-does-not-have-to-be-after-passover-and-other-orthodox-urban-legends/
 

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Christina said:
http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/roadsfromemmaus/2015/03/31/no-pascha-does-not-have-to-be-after-passover-and-other-orthodox-urban-legends/
Thanks! I read that a few days ago, and found it pretty helpful. I was definitely one of the ones spreading the rumor about our Pascha having to be after Passover. Whoops.
 

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Me, too!  I also read all of the comments, and apparently there have been more than 11 meetings to discuss correcting the calculation according to the best scientific methods available.  I know the Church moves at a snail's pace, but seriously?!
 

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When people ask  why the Orthodox date of Pascha is different than the western churches, I say:  Explain how your church calculates that date of Easter then we can discuss the differences.  ;)

love, elephant
 

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Sadly, Father Damick took a great deal of abuse from some for simply posting an interesting article. To me that is more scandalous than Christians being unable to agree upon the correct calculation of the date of our Saviour's Resurrection. To some, you can't even talk about certain subjects. I guess that is what centuries of polemic passing as catechism in both the western and eastern churches will cause. Sad.
 

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podkarpatska said:
Sadly, Father Damick took a great deal of abuse from some for simply posting an interesting article. To me that is more scandalous than Christians being unable to agree upon the correct calculation of the date of our Saviour's Resurrection. To some, you can't even talk about certain subjects. I guess that is what centuries of polemic passing as catechism in both the western and eastern churches will cause. Sad.
Absolutely! Particularly for a Church that proclaims fidelity to the Ecumenical Councils, it is tragic that some Orthodox today are willing to subvert the clear guidance that (a) we cannot base our calculations on the Jews' calculations for Passover, and (b) it is to be first Sunday (real day) after the first full moon (real, observable full moon) after the Vernal Equinox (real and observable). I added the comments in parenthesis to emphasize the unreality of what we are doing now. I apologize to all who are on the Old calendar and what I am about to say applies to only a fraction of Orthodox, but I am amazed that some are still attached to a man-made calendar as if it is a holy thing.
 

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Timon said:
It seems like we are the ones who are being stubborn.
I don't think continuing to do things as we always have is the same thing as being stubborn. If the bishops of all canonical Orthodox churches can all agree (I wouldn't hold my breath) to use the actual astronomical Equinox without creating schism I'd be all for it, but thankfully it is above my paygrade. However, an attempt to try to force such a thing down the throat of Orthodox brothers and sisters would be a great sin and would cause schism.

Timon said:
WeSome local Orthodox jurisdictions did revise the Julian Calendar to match the Gregorian for the most part, but we still use the original Julian Calendar for Easter as we believe the Church (Orthodox Church) should celebrate Easter all together as some people who are particularly attached to the "old" calendar the majority of the world's Orthodox Christians dont want to switch to the revised. Celebrating together is more important than fussing over calendars since the God whos resurrection we celebrate is not bound by time or calendars anyways.
Creating a common date for was one the main reasons for the council of Nicea, so celebrating together is important. For new calendar churches to push for universal adoption of the revised calendar would be very unfortunate, it would likely create schism and separate these "New Calendarists" from the bosom of Orthodoxy, I would hate to see that.
 

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podkarpatska said:
Sadly, Father Damick took a great deal of abuse from some for simply posting an interesting article. To me that is more scandalous than Christians being unable to agree upon the correct calculation of the date of our Saviour's Resurrection. To some, you can't even talk about certain subjects. I guess that is what centuries of polemic passing as catechism in both the western and eastern churches will cause. Sad.
That is very unfortunate. I hope it gets more press and people can swallow their pride and begin to think.  Do you have examples of the "grief" he got? I don't see too much negative in the comments. It has been frustrating to hear otherwise intelligent people continue to say that line just because they've always heard it. I've always asked people to provide me an example of how the supposed "after Passover" rule actually affects to date, and they never can. It is just that in our time, using the currently method of the determining the "Ecclesiastical Vernal Equinox" it can't happen.
 

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Bob2 said:
Timon said:
It seems like we are the ones who are being stubborn.
I don't think continuing to do things as we always have is the same thing as being stubborn. If the bishops of all canonical Orthodox churches can all agree (I wouldn't hold my breath) to use the actual astronomical Equinox without creating schism I'd be all for it, but thankfully it is above my paygrade. However, an attempt to try to force such a thing down the throat of Orthodox brothers and sisters would be a great sin and would cause schism.
I understand what you are saying. And again, please understand I am not necessarily advocating for a change or trying to argue, but rather trying to wrap my head around the circumstances. Yes, we do it the way it has always been done. But the calendar used at Nicea was surely thought to be accurate at the time, but it turned out it wasnt. I suppose the Gregorian isnt really either. But it seems that its assumed there is some reason, other than the fact that it was the go-to calendar at the time, that we HAVE to use the Julian calendar, and Im not sure there is. But i could definitely be wrong. I know people have been pondering this for centuries. I just want to make better sense of it for myself.

This may be too bold, and even inappropriate for me to say, but if the Fathers from Nicea were around today I wonder if they wouldnt tell us to go ahead and use the most scientifically accurate calendar.
 

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
........  (b) it is to be first Sunday (real day) after the first full moon (real, observable full moon) after the Vernal Equinox (real and observable). I added the comments in parenthesis to emphasize the unreality of what we are doing now........
Exactly. I really don't understand why East and West can't just look up at the sky and agree on the same date. It's not difficult in this day and age to know when these things will occur.

Also puzzled as to why a Christian festival is based on the moon - any (hopefully simple!) explanation for that?
 

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eddybear said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
........  (b) it is to be first Sunday (real day) after the first full moon (real, observable full moon) after the Vernal Equinox (real and observable). I added the comments in parenthesis to emphasize the unreality of what we are doing now........
Exactly. I really don't understand why East and West can't just look up at the sky and agree on the same date. It's not difficult in this day and age to know when these things will occur.

Also puzzled as to why a Christian festival is based on the moon - any (hopefully simple!) explanation for that?
Based on the moon: It may be a bit of a residue from the Jewish past and the connection to Passover as it was calculated at the time of the Crucifixion and Resurrection. However, I have read elsewhere (sorry I really don't remember where) a better explanation (and like other things, I don't know which occurred first: the event or the explanation  ;)). At the equinox, every part of the earth receives some light from the sun. There are only those two points of time in any year. At the full moon, the nighttime sky is as brightly lit as it can possibly be. Therefore, when you combine the equinox with the full moon, you have the earth as brightly lit as can possibly happen. I think you can see the depth of symbolism there. This is one reason that I believe we need to adhere more closely to astronomical observations.

As for your point about simply looking up into the sky, well, in spite of what I've just said, it really isn't quite that easy. It's approaching noon on Saturday for me at this moment of writing. It's already Sunday in some parts of the world. So if the equinox and/or full moon were to occur in the astronomically visible sense, we could end up with the question of "Which is the Sunday that follows?" That's why we have mathematical formulae to make the calculations.
 

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Timon said:
Bob2 said:
Timon said:
It seems like we are the ones who are being stubborn.
I don't think continuing to do things as we always have is the same thing as being stubborn. If the bishops of all canonical Orthodox churches can all agree (I wouldn't hold my breath) to use the actual astronomical Equinox without creating schism I'd be all for it, but thankfully it is above my paygrade. However, an attempt to try to force such a thing down the throat of Orthodox brothers and sisters would be a great sin and would cause schism.
I understand what you are saying. And again, please understand I am not necessarily advocating for a change or trying to argue, but rather trying to wrap my head around the circumstances. Yes, we do it the way it has always been done. But the calendar used at Nicea was surely thought to be accurate at the time, but it turned out it wasnt. I suppose the Gregorian isnt really either. But it seems that its assumed there is some reason, other than the fact that it was the go-to calendar at the time, that we HAVE to use the Julian calendar, and Im not sure there is. But i could definitely be wrong. I know people have been pondering this for centuries. I just want to make better sense of it for myself.

This may be too bold, and even inappropriate for me to say, but if the Fathers from Nicea were around today I wonder if they wouldnt tell us to go ahead and use the most scientifically accurate calendar.
You and I definitely sing in the same choir  :D. A calendar is a tool. Like other tools, it may need to be sharpened, repaired, or even replaced.

The Nicene Fathers were likely aware that the Julian Calendar was not ideal. Even at their time, it was off astronomically by about three days. However, at the same time, they would have been equally aware the the Julian Calendar itself had been tweaked on occasion at the behest of the reigning emperor, thus showing that it is not immutable. I think I'm agreeing with you that the Julian Calendar, which was the civil calendar of their day, simply provided a common reference for the convenience and desirability of having the whole Church celebrate Pascha together.

Lest anyone think I'm pressing for quick change, let me point this out: I don't want things to change until at least the year AD 2052. In 2051, Pascha will occur on May 7 and that will be my 99th birthday. I've already started planning for it  ;D.
 

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Jason.Wike said:
Ok, so I know the OE church uses the oldest method of calculating Easter but that is pretty much it.

Does anyone know of a website that explains, or can someone explain, how it is calculated and why the west changed it?

I think it has something to do with that the Jews changed how they calculate Passover and they followed along, sort of like how most Protestants use the Masoretic text... but I could be wrong.
The Gregorian system is described here:  http://www.telepath.com/~hrothgar/lunar_almanac.html  The present year, 2015, is the 2nd year of the 19-year cycle shown there.  The Julian system is the same as the Gregorian in that 19 solar years are spanned by 235 lunar months of 30 and 29 days each.  But in the Julian calendar the lunar months no longer track the observable lunar phases.  The Julian moon is full around 4 days later than the visible moon is.

Arguably we in the west did not "change" the paschalion.  It is the Julian paschalion's own accumulated errors that "changed" the Julian paschalion over time, and the Gregorian paschalion simply restored the Easter cycle to its proper synchronization with the heavens.

LizaSymonenko said:
This year the PFM falls on the 11th of April, and therefore, Pascha falls on the Sunday after that, which is the 15th.
According to the tables in the Oxford Companion to the Year (p. 823) the Paschal lunar month begins this year on March 12th Julian (March 25th Gregorian).  Its 14th day ("full moon") is 13 days after this, so March 25 + 13 = "March 38th" = April 7th, 2015.

PrincessMommy said:
I also thought that we could not have Pascha before Passover and that this was decided at the First council at Nicea.  Is that true?
If bye "Passover" you mean "the 15th of Nisan by the modern Rabbinic calendar", then the answer is no.  The Julian paschalion, like the Gregorian paschalion, is self-consistent and makes no external reference to any other calendar.
 

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Mockingbird said:
Arguably we in the west did not "change" the paschalion.  It is the Julian paschalion's own accumulated errors that "changed" the Julian paschalion over time, and the Gregorian paschalion simply restored the Easter cycle to its proper synchronization with the heavens.
You are absolutely correct. 
 

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genesisone said:
eddybear said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
........  (b) it is to be first Sunday (real day) after the first full moon (real, observable full moon) after the Vernal Equinox (real and observable). I added the comments in parenthesis to emphasize the unreality of what we are doing now........
Exactly. I really don't understand why East and West can't just look up at the sky and agree on the same date. It's not difficult in this day and age to know when these things will occur.

Also puzzled as to why a Christian festival is based on the moon - any (hopefully simple!) explanation for that?
Based on the moon: It may be a bit of a residue from the Jewish past and the connection to Passover as it was calculated at the time of the Crucifixion and Resurrection. However, I have read elsewhere (sorry I really don't remember where) a better explanation (and like other things, I don't know which occurred first: the event or the explanation  ;)). At the equinox, every part of the earth receives some light from the sun. There are only those two points of time in any year. At the full moon, the nighttime sky is as brightly lit as it can possibly be. Therefore, when you combine the equinox with the full moon, you have the earth as brightly lit as can possibly happen. I think you can see the depth of symbolism there. This is one reason that I believe we need to adhere more closely to astronomical observations.

As for your point about simply looking up into the sky, well, in spite of what I've just said, it really isn't quite that easy. It's approaching noon on Saturday for me at this moment of writing. It's already Sunday in some parts of the world. So if the equinox and/or full moon were to occur in the astronomically visible sense, we could end up with the question of "Which is the Sunday that follows?" That's why we have mathematical formulae to make the calculations.
Thanks for the explanation of the moon stuff. I'd never realised that symbolism before, but it's very powerful.
 

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Mockingbird said:
Arguably we in the west did not "change" the paschalion.  It is the Julian paschalion's own accumulated errors that "changed" the Julian paschalion over time, and the Gregorian paschalion simply restored the Easter cycle to its proper synchronization with the heavens.
You are absolutely correct.
This is a good point.
 

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genesisone said:
Timon said:
Bob2 said:
Timon said:
It seems like we are the ones who are being stubborn.
I don't think continuing to do things as we always have is the same thing as being stubborn. If the bishops of all canonical Orthodox churches can all agree (I wouldn't hold my breath) to use the actual astronomical Equinox without creating schism I'd be all for it, but thankfully it is above my paygrade. However, an attempt to try to force such a thing down the throat of Orthodox brothers and sisters would be a great sin and would cause schism.
I understand what you are saying. And again, please understand I am not necessarily advocating for a change or trying to argue, but rather trying to wrap my head around the circumstances. Yes, we do it the way it has always been done. But the calendar used at Nicea was surely thought to be accurate at the time, but it turned out it wasnt. I suppose the Gregorian isnt really either. But it seems that its assumed there is some reason, other than the fact that it was the go-to calendar at the time, that we HAVE to use the Julian calendar, and Im not sure there is. But i could definitely be wrong. I know people have been pondering this for centuries. I just want to make better sense of it for myself.

This may be too bold, and even inappropriate for me to say, but if the Fathers from Nicea were around today I wonder if they wouldnt tell us to go ahead and use the most scientifically accurate calendar.
You and I definitely sing in the same choir  :D. A calendar is a tool. Like other tools, it may need to be sharpened, repaired, or even replaced.

The Nicene Fathers were likely aware that the Julian Calendar was not ideal. Even at their time, it was off astronomically by about three days. However, at the same time, they would have been equally aware the the Julian Calendar itself had been tweaked on occasion at the behest of the reigning emperor, thus showing that it is not immutable. I think I'm agreeing with you that the Julian Calendar, which was the civil calendar of their day, simply provided a common reference for the convenience and desirability of having the whole Church celebrate Pascha together.

Lest anyone think I'm pressing for quick change, let me point this out: I don't want things to change until at least the year AD 2052. In 2051, Pascha will occur on May 7 and that will be my 99th birthday. I've already started planning for it  ;D.

Thats awesome. I will definitely attend your 99th birthday party.
 

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Timon said:
genesisone said:
Timon said:
Bob2 said:
Timon said:
It seems like we are the ones who are being stubborn.
I don't think continuing to do things as we always have is the same thing as being stubborn. If the bishops of all canonical Orthodox churches can all agree (I wouldn't hold my breath) to use the actual astronomical Equinox without creating schism I'd be all for it, but thankfully it is above my paygrade. However, an attempt to try to force such a thing down the throat of Orthodox brothers and sisters would be a great sin and would cause schism.
I understand what you are saying. And again, please understand I am not necessarily advocating for a change or trying to argue, but rather trying to wrap my head around the circumstances. Yes, we do it the way it has always been done. But the calendar used at Nicea was surely thought to be accurate at the time, but it turned out it wasnt. I suppose the Gregorian isnt really either. But it seems that its assumed there is some reason, other than the fact that it was the go-to calendar at the time, that we HAVE to use the Julian calendar, and Im not sure there is. But i could definitely be wrong. I know people have been pondering this for centuries. I just want to make better sense of it for myself.

This may be too bold, and even inappropriate for me to say, but if the Fathers from Nicea were around today I wonder if they wouldnt tell us to go ahead and use the most scientifically accurate calendar.
You and I definitely sing in the same choir  :D. A calendar is a tool. Like other tools, it may need to be sharpened, repaired, or even replaced.

The Nicene Fathers were likely aware that the Julian Calendar was not ideal. Even at their time, it was off astronomically by about three days. However, at the same time, they would have been equally aware the the Julian Calendar itself had been tweaked on occasion at the behest of the reigning emperor, thus showing that it is not immutable. I think I'm agreeing with you that the Julian Calendar, which was the civil calendar of their day, simply provided a common reference for the convenience and desirability of having the whole Church celebrate Pascha together.

Lest anyone think I'm pressing for quick change, let me point this out: I don't want things to change until at least the year AD 2052. In 2051, Pascha will occur on May 7 and that will be my 99th birthday. I've already started planning for it  ;D.

Thats awesome. I will definitely attend your 99th birthday party.
Heck, I'll be a mere 98.
 

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Do you actually believe the Emperor of today ? Did the Church have an emperor back then in historical times? ..
 
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