Eastern Catholic vs. Western Orthodox?

Jennifer

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I've been told that many of the more 'eastern' Byzantine Catholics attend liturgy at an Orthodox church instead of a Roman Catholic church if no Eastern Catholic parish is available. 

It got me to thinking what I would do in a similar situation.  If I only had a choice between a Western Orthodox church and an Eastern Catholic church I'd definitely choose to the Orthodox church because I could receive Communion.  (Of course this is hypothetical as there are no places in the US where the only Orthodox parishes are Western Orthodox.)

What would you do? 
 

chris

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From my way of looking at this there is no choice in this matter. I would attend the Orthodox parish, and observe the Western Rite (and probably get thoroughly lost while doing so).
 

Hesychios

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If I had the options only of attending a Western Orthodox church or a Byzantine Catholic church I guess I would attend the Western rite Orthodox church because I am expected to as an Orthodox Christian. But I don't expect that I would be very satisfied with that decision.

I have to admit that I am curious about these Western rite Orthodox churches, I have always wanted to visit one. I'm pretty sure that the "Mass" there would be an improvement over what I am already familiar with.  ;D

Michael
 

Veniamin

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Attend the Western-Rite parish.  I'm sure it would be a lot like when I was Episcopalian, except the Eucharist would be real.
 

Jennifer

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I'd love to attend a Western Orthodox parish but unfortunately there aren't any close to me. 

I figured most of you would agree with me.  I find it strange that many Eastern Catholics think differently about this.  I've observed a lot of discussions about this on Catholic and Eastern Catholic boards and it almost seems like the ECs who would go to an RC Mass are seen as being somehow less 'eastern.' 

 

Landon77

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(Of course this is hypothetical as there are no places in the US where the only Orthodox parishes are Western Orthodox.)

What would you do? 
Tyler, Texas.  Western Rite mission- Holy Apostles.  Nearest Orthodox parish practicing the liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox, about two hours away.  :D
 

greekischristian

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I'd have to ask my Metropolitan, I'm glad I'm not faced with this problem, it would seem like a Choice between bad and worse, and I dont know which is which. I have no inclination as to what my current Metropolitan may say, but my former Metropolitan, His Eminence Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory, might very well have prefered that I attend an Eastern Catholic Parish, or possibly even a Latin Rite Catholic Parish, to one of the Antiochian's Western Rite Parishes; he did, in one of his Encyclicals against the Western Rite forbid his Clergy from Concelebrating with Western Rite Priests, and strongly discouraged the laity from having any commerce with them.

Landon,
But are there any Eastern Rite Catholic Parishes in Tyler, TX?
 

nstanosheck

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O know a number of ROCOR members, when in Rhode Island would go to the Western Rite Monastery outside ofProvidence, asit was the only ROCOR parish in the state.

Of course, the ROCOR does not use the Anglican Service with some slight changes and call it Western Orthodox, but uses the pre-schism Sarum Rite Divine Liturgy, Hours, Matins and Vespers.
 

Pedro

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greekischristian said:
...my former Metropolitan, His Eminence Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory, might very well have prefered that I attend an Eastern Catholic Parish, or possibly even a Latin Rite Catholic Parish, to one of the Antiochian's Western Rite Parishes...
WHAT?!  If this were the case, I'm sorry, but there would be some SERIOUS priority problems going on there.  You're telling me that an Orthodox Metropolitan would prefer that someone would be better off going to a parish with heretical beliefs JUST because the liturgy was eastern?  Moreover, that he would even prefer the western expression of said heretical Church over a western-rite parish which holds no heretical beliefs?!

I have never heard something so brazenly outlandish in my life.  Then there's this:

...he did, in one of his Encyclicals against the Western Rite forbid his Clergy from Concelebrating with Western Rite Priests, and strongly discouraged the laity from having any commerce with them.
He is therefore the cause of the beginning of a schism within the Church.  To say that a parish which is under the care of a canonically ordained Orthodox bishop is somehow "unworthy" of recognition as an Orthodox parish is outrageous.  The western-rite parishes are under legit Orthodox bishops, full stop, and are therefore immediately worthy of recognition as such...and are definitely to be preferred as family over ANYTHING in the Roman Catholic community.

greekischristian said:
Landon,
But are there any Eastern Rite Catholic Parishes in Tyler, TX?
As he himself is a western-rite Orthodox Christian, his answer is probably this: Who cares?!  They are NOT in the family, and to say that the western-rite Orthodox parishes are somehow not to be preferred to these other, heretical parishes is incomprehensible.

The hellenic axe-grinding against canonical western Orthodoxy continues in the GOA, I see...  :mad:  :-\ :'(

Νικολάος Διάκονος said:
Of course, the ROCOR does not use the Anglican Service with some slight changes and call it Western Orthodox, but uses the pre-schism Sarum Rite Divine Liturgy, Hours, Matins and Vespers.
True, the AOAA western-rite would be better off using Saurum/York.  But, the Rite of St. Tikhon (which was approved for use by the MP Synod more than once) is what they use, they have the approval of their bishop to do so, and are therefore also a part of the western Orthodox movement.  While their choice of liturgy is not the best, nothing therein even remotely warrants their being ostracized to the point of having RC and EC parishes preferred over them!

This is just like some British Orthodox priests who've told interested converts from Anglicanism to just "stick with the Anglican Church."  The idea of being told to go outside the Orthodox communion for fellowship merely because of rite is not only spitting in the face of one's Orthodox brothers and sisters, but also the bishops of said parishes, with whom they claim to be in communion.
 

Pedro

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First, here is an article from the Greek Archdiocese of Denver; thankfully (lest we be accused of Greek-bashing again), not all Greek bishops are so tied to rite that they forget about episcopal intercommunion.

Second, the apologia "Lux Occidentalis": click on the link to go to the PDA document, then scroll down to the bottom of page 8, to the heading, "Western Rite Texts: Ancient and Modern."  An excellent dissection of the Rite of St. Tikhon is offered as a rebuttal to the statement that it is "not in direct continuity with the worship of the early Church of the West."
 

Jennifer

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Pedro said:
I have never heard something so brazenly outlandish in my life.
I don't think it's any more outlandish than other things GiC has written here. 

It'll will be interesting to see what he's like after a few years in Thessaloniki.  I suspect he'll grow up a lot and hope that he'll be much better suited for the priesthood than he is now. 

 

ozgeorge

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Pedro said:
The hellenic axe-grinding against canonical western Orthodoxy continues in the GOA, I see... :mad: :-\ :'(
Firstly, again, GiC is not an hellene.

Secondly, the only concerns I've heard from liturgists and theologians of the GOA of America is that the Sarum Rite may be based only on fragments of manuscript rather than a complete text of the Liturgy and Office- their concerns are not that it's "western", but that it may not completely be "pre-schism."

Thirdly, "Canonical" according to whom? At the moment, ROCOR is of doubtful canonical status as far as the GOA is concerned until it is reconciled and in full Communion with Moscow. ROCOR's pronouncements of canonicity do not reflect the GOA's position yet. The GOA has every right (and in fact, a duty) to proceed cautiously.
 

greekischristian

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Pedro,
How outlandish of me to refer to the Instructions that my former Metropolitan, of Most Blessed Memory, gave on the matter. Heaven forbid I would have sought the advoce of my Bishop. To quote the Late Metropolitan on the issue,

'We are thus placed in the awkward position of having to accept the "western rite" vicariate of the Antiochian Archdiocese as belonging to the canonical Orthodox Church while at the same time recognizing that this is a foreign element within the Body of Christ, analogous to the creation of the Unia by the Roman Catholic Church.'

We are in a difficult pastoral posistion of having to deal with Priests and Parishes who, while under the Great and Ancient Patriarchate of Anitoch, have divorced themselves from the Tradition of the said patriarchate. The ideal solution to this problem would be for the Patriarchate of Antioch to condemn this 'foreign element within the Body of Christ' and rectify the problem of having Parishes under her Omophorion not adhear to the Traditional Practices of the Patriarchate. But baring action by the Patriarchate of Antioch, it is necessary for our Blessed Metropolitans to take Actions to Protect the Orthodox Faithful under their Omophorion. Thus, the decrees of the Metropolitan directed HIS Priests not to involve themselves in this radical departure from the Liturgical Customs of the Eastern Churches (Strange how people will be up in arms about the removal of a few prayers to shorten a service, but will openly support a complete and utter destruction of the Liturgical Customs of the Eastern Church), forbade Priests who did not dress themselves in the Vestments of the Church from Celebrating in HIS Churches (Heaven forbid we require priests to dress like priests, wouldn't it just be great if we could have Clown Liturgies instead?), and sought to protect the Faithful under HIS Omophorion from this departure from Orthodox Tradition.

As I am opposed to the Unia in the Latin Church, consistancy requires me to hold a similar view of the so-called 'western rite,' for me to take a more sympathetic posistion would require that either I accept the intrusion of the Unia as legitimage or embrace the hypocracy of conflicting posistions, neither of which I find acceptable. The easiest solution would be for the so-called 'western rite' parishes to start acting Orthodox, and embrace the Liturgical Traditions of the Orthodox Church.

Jennifer,
Fortunately, you are not my Metropolitan; the person I quoted, who was far more competant on the issue, was actually, while he was yet alive, my Metropolitan. And frankly, I do not see how he would have considered my agreeing with his views as somehow demonstrating my unsuitability for the priesthood.
 

Anastasios

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GisC,

How many Western Rite people are you personally friends or acquaintances with, to the extent that you have realized that some people simply cannot get past the Byzantine Rite, but have an Orthodox faith, and their parish en masse converted to Orthodoxy, retained its liturgical rite, and thus brought in hundreds of people into Orthodoxy? It seems you are adept at theoretical argumentation but short on the pastoral implications.  To me, the several thousand Orthodox who are Orthodox because of the WR far outweighs the problem of having "reverse uniatism."

It seems to me uniatism is only wrong insofar as it is forced.  So if people want to be Eastern Rite Catholics or Western Rite Orthodox in 2005, who cares? It's their choice, and we shouldn't worry about them.

Anastasios
 

Jennifer

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GiC, you're unsuitable for the priesthood because of your attitude, not because of your opinion about Western Orthodoxy.  I suspect (and hope) that the reason you weren't ordained upon your graduation from seminary was that the 'powers that be' in the GOA know of your unsuitability for the priesthood.  Regardless, I believe that your sojoun in Thessaloniki will do you much good. 

BTW, I too am glad that I'm not your metropolitan.  I wouldn't want to explain your 'prickly' personality to a parish. 

 

ozgeorge

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Anastasios said:
So if people want to be Eastern Rite Catholics or Western Rite Orthodox in 2005, who cares? It's their choice, and we shouldn't worry about them.
To me this smacks a bit of "McOrthodoxy" or "Burger King Orthodoxy."
Should the Western Right also be introiduced to Russia, Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria etc. in order to give people more choice?
What will it be today? Sarum Rite? Do you want fries with that?

 

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If I ever decided to fully schismate from Catholicism and join the Orthodox Church, I would love a Western rite parish.

It is the faith and tradition of my Irish and English ancestors who used a Mass basically the same as the pre-Vatican II Mass. Rome and the West have always had unique rites separate from the East. As long as they are ancient and have nothing contrary to the Orthodox faith, what would the problem be in having a Western rite liturgy?

Now the Anglican Mass was an innovation, but the pre-Vatican II Mass was not. The reform of Pius V was basically the unification of the Western rites into one Roman rite; it was not an innovation, but sought to reclaim lost traditions.

Here is what Quo Primum said about the Roman Missal: "They very carefully collated all their work with the ancient codices in Our Vatican Library and with reliable, preserved or emended codices from elsewhere. Besides this, these men consulted the works of ancient and approved authors concerning the same sacred rites; and thus they have restored the Missal itself to the original form and rite of the holy Fathers."
 

Anastasios

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ozgeorge said:
To me this smacks a bit of "McOrthodoxy" or "Burger King Orthodoxy."
Should the Western Right also be introiduced to Russia, Serbia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria etc. in order to give people more choice?
What will it be today? Sarum Rite? Do you want fries with that?
LOL

No way, it shouldn't be introduced anywhere.  It is only allowed when a previously-existing group comes into unity with Orthodoxy, just like how in the 19th century the Russian Church allowed the Assyrians coming into union with Orthodoxy to use their liturgical tradition sans references to "St" Nestorius and the like.  In other words, we shouldn't be in the business of setting up new liturgical rites but if a body with an ancient liturgical tradition becomes Orthodox en masse then let the parish retain this usage.

Anastasios
 
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