Eastern Catholic vs. Western Orthodox?

Deacon Lance

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I believe it is fair.

"...it is found that the Use of Rouen and that of Sarum were almost identical in the 11th century. A curious and interesting illustration of this will be found in an extract of a Rouen manuscript missal, assumed to be 650 years old... The Rouen Pontifical, of about 1007 A.D., quoted in the same work, shows a like affinity of that of Sarum and Exeter in later days."

http://books.google.com/books?vid=08I4RhaJDeU0z2Dt&id=cyUBAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA20-PA615&lpg=RA20-PA615&dq=Rouen+Missal&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q=Rouen%20Missal&f=false

Further, Fr. Aidan has been proved unreliable as to his scholarship concerning the Sarum Rite, as several Western Rite members of this forum can confirm.  Please note his version of the SArum Missal has not been approved for use in ROCOR which received him in 2008.
 

Hermogenes

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Michał said:
Deacon Lance said:
. . .the Sarum use came from France with the Normans. . .
This is a very unfair simplification.

Re: Norman Additions to Sarum
From: Fr. Aidan


This is an excellent question. The short answer is that there is not a single known change or discrepancy between the liturgy of pre-Conquest Sarum and post-Conquest Sarum. According to some scholars, there was zero change. But, that said, the Use of Sarum as it comes down to us looks very suspiciously like the Use of Rouen. Of course we don't know of any change in the liturgy of Rouen from pre-May 1054 to post-May 1054, nor for the following century. Those were the days of not much change in the spirituality and content of the Western liturgy.

The real changes that would impact on the theology of the Liturgy, people's experience of it, really are found in the late 12th century and 13th century: the insertion of an elevation at the "Words of Institution," and so forth.

These latter, changed features are not in the Sarum service books I am familiar with, which have been blessed for celebration in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.
Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis
What this leaves out is that there are NO extant sources for Sarum rite liturgy before the Conquest. The earliest (incomplete) texts date from the 12th-13th centuries. What is needed to qualify, according to the criteria laid out at the beginning of this thread, is a liturgy that is orthodox, recognizably "like" the liturgy now being put forth as "Western Orthodox," and dating  from before the Great Schism. Proponents of the Western Rite are saying enough authentic primary sources exist to produce such a liturgy. Skeptics disagree. That's not to say the Sarum Rite isn't a beautiful liturgy, or the 1549 Cranmer/Edward VI prayer book, for that matter. They're just not Orthodox, without some editing.

But--the Carpatho-Rusyn metropolis did exactly that when its adherents became Orthodox in the 1930s. They made the few changes the EP required and kept the rest.

What's most surprising to me about this thread is the number of people, devoutly Orthodox, who actually prefer the Western Rite. In my arrogance, I had always thought use of the Western rite would be some kind of transition until a person could learn to appreciate "real" Orthodox liturgy. Anyone who liked the Western rite simply couldn't have been exposed enough to the glories of Byzantine worship.
 

Michał

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Deacon Lance said:
I believe it is fair.
I've just made a little research and came accros a message from one of the WR members of this forum:
Further, Fr. Aidan has been proved unreliable as to his scholarship concerning the Sarum Rite, as several Western Rite members of this forum can confirm.  Please note his version of the SArum Missal has not been approved for use in ROCOR which received him in 2008.
Fr. Aidan claims otherwise:
Fr. Aidan has been blessed by Metr. Hilarion (Sept. 26, 2008) to celebrate services according to the Sarum use of the Roman rite, using the full line of liturgical books published by St. Hilarion Press and which are due for re-issue under the aegis of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Source: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-news-for-sarum-use-of-roman-rite.html
 

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Hermogenes said:
What's most surprising to me about this thread is the number of people, devoutly Orthodox, who actually prefer the Western Rite. In my arrogance, I had always thought use of the Western rite would be some kind of transition until a person could learn to appreciate "real" Orthodox liturgy. Anyone who liked the Western rite simply couldn't have been exposed enough to the glories of Byzantine worship.
I've experienced both Eastern and Western rites, and all I can say is that I just find the Western Rite (Tikhon specifically) to be much more beautiful and meaningful to me than the Byzantine.  But that's because it is from my own heritage and lineage, my own culture and tradition.  It feels natural and authentic and like my worship is coming from a genuine place.  I think I could feel that way in the Byzantine, but it would take some hard to work.  I'm very thankful that Orthodoxy has provided a way for those of us with a more Western mindset to have a fulfilling and authentic form of worship.
 

Deacon Lance

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Michał said:
Fr. Aidan claims otherwise:
Fr. Aidan has been blessed by Metr. Hilarion (Sept. 26, 2008) to celebrate services according to the Sarum use of the Roman rite, using the full line of liturgical books published by St. Hilarion Press and which are due for re-issue under the aegis of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Source: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-news-for-sarum-use-of-roman-rite.html
Yes, he has a habit of claiming that. 
http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/04/sigha-response-to-derek-fr-aidan.html

Perhaps, he finally got approval.  That does not mean his scholarship is accurate.
 

Irish Hermit

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Deacon Lance said:
Michał said:
Fr. Aidan claims otherwise:
Fr. Aidan has been blessed by Metr. Hilarion (Sept. 26, 2008) to celebrate services according to the Sarum use of the Roman rite, using the full line of liturgical books published by St. Hilarion Press and which are due for re-issue under the aegis of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Source: http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/2008/10/good-news-for-sarum-use-of-roman-rite.html
Yes, he has a habit of claiming that. 
http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/04/sigha-response-to-derek-fr-aidan.html

Perhaps, he finally got approval.  That does not mean his scholarship is accurate.
I recall, sadly only too well, the hostility against Fr Aidan which was both deep-seated and long-running.  It was not widespread though, and was confined to just five people.  Within ROCA - **********.  Among the Antiochians -**********  The latter uses his blog to denigrate Fr Aidan and misrepresent what he says. 

The anti-Fr Aidan campaign was well organised. It went back several years both in public messages on blogs and e-lists as well as in private mailings to Church authorities.  It has been a very illuminating example of the pettiness which can posses some of the souls in the WR world when their hegemony is challenged.
 

Irish Hermit

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Deacon Lance said:
  Please note his version of the SArum Missal has not been approved for use in ROCOR which received him in 2008.
It most certainly has been approved, by Metropolitan Hilarion who has also always allowed its sale in church bookshops and there are now plans to reprint it with his blessing.
 

Michał

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Irish Hermit said:
It most certainly has been approved, by Metropolitan Hilarion who has also always allowed its sale in church bookshops and there are now plans to reprint it with his blessing.
But it also has to be noted that in the ROCOR Fr. Aidan's Sarum is used only by himself, when he occasionally serves according to WR at St. Nicholas Monastery, Ft. Myers, Florida.
 

Irish Hermit

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Michał said:
Irish Hermit said:
It most certainly has been approved, by Metropolitan Hilarion who has also always allowed its sale in church bookshops and there are now plans to reprint it with his blessing.

But it also has to be noted that in the ROCOR Fr. Aidan's Sarum is used only by himself...
Your point?

What priests in ROCA use Dom James Deschene's Black Benedictine books and his form of the Tridentine Mass?  Only himself.

What priests in ROCA use Abbot David Pierce's form of the Sarum (Achbp John LoBue's) cum Dom Augustine's Mt Royal preferences?  Only himself.

What priests in ROCA use the Gallican forms of Fr Allyne Lev Smith?  Only himself.

 

Deacon Lance

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Irish Hermit said:
Deacon Lance said:
  Please note his version of the SArum Missal has not been approved for use in ROCOR which received him in 2008.
It most certainly has been approved, by Metropolitan Hilarion who has also always allowed its sale in church bookshops and there are now plans to reprint it with his blessing.
I stand corrected. 
 

Deacon Lance

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Irish Hermit said:
Michał said:
Irish Hermit said:
It most certainly has been approved, by Metropolitan Hilarion who has also always allowed its sale in church bookshops and there are now plans to reprint it with his blessing.

But it also has to be noted that in the ROCOR Fr. Aidan's Sarum is used only by himself...
Your point?

What priests in ROCA use Dom James Deschene's Black Benedictine books and his form of the Tridentine Mass?  Only himself.

What priests in ROCA use Abbot David Pierce's form of the Sarum (Achbp John LoBue's) cum Dom Augustine's Mt Royal preferences?  Only himself.

What priests in ROCA use the Gallican forms of Fr Allyne Lev Smith?  Only himself.
The point it would seem is the ROCOR Western Rite is subjected to the personal preferences and idiosyncrasies of the few priests it has.
 

Michał

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Irish Hermit said:
Your point?
Just wanted to make it clear for those who don't know that in this case "approved for use in ROCA" does not neceserily mean that it is used by more than one priest-monk.

Irish Hermit said:
What priests in ROCA use Dom James Deschene's Black Benedictine books and his form of the Tridentine Mass?  Only himself.
The Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory included in St. Colman Prayer Book, used by St. Petroc Monastery's missions, is the one of the Christminster. I also guess that St. Patrick chapel, Northville, Michigan, as a dependency of Christminster, is in some kind of liturgical uniformity with its mother-monastery. I also assume that the WR Liturgy of the bi-ritual St. Benedict church, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, isn't that different from the one of Christminster as both communities have the Benedictione element in common.

Irish Hermit said:
What priests in ROCA use Abbot David Pierce's form of the Sarum (Achbp John LoBue's) cum Dom Augustine's Mt Royal preferences?  Only himself.
As for the Mt. Royal, Archimandrite Anthony (Bondi) wrote recently in his open letter that he and his clergy "will
. . . be able to keep [their] Liturgy which is based on the Dom Augustine Liturgy."

Irish Hermit said:
What priests in ROCA use the Gallican forms of Fr Allyne Lev Smith?  Only himself.
Yes, but there used to be a whole ROCA diocese, with its own WR bishop, which was using it, and we can hope that after Fr. Allyne Lev Smith's reception more Gallican rite parishes will come back home.
 

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Deacon Lance said:
The point it would seem is the ROCOR Western Rite is subjected to the personal preferences and idiosyncrasies of the few priests it has.
I'm sure a greater uniformity will be worked out with time.
 

peterfarrington

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I'm very thankful that Orthodoxy has provided a way for those of us with a more Western mindset to have a fulfilling and authentic form of worship.
I don't think that I could have a more Western mindset. I am English, and then British, and proud to be so going back to unrecorded history. I don't think it is fair to suggest that people with a 'Western mindset' become WR. I am very happy being Western and Orthodox and I don't find the Western liturgical tradition immediately makes a connection with me because I was never Anglican. In my experience most WR enthusiasts are Anglican. (That is not a criticism, but an observation).

If it was required that I learn Arabic and/or Coptic to be able to worship I would not be as comfortable in my situation as I am. But in fact as a small missionary diocese of mostly British people in the Coptic Patriarchate I find myself under no pressure to become an Egyptian, and find that the forms of worship we use are entirely accessible to English people. Indeed our diocese has been tasked with sharing our Orthodoxy in a British ethos. As an entirely British person this has NEVER meant being Anglican to me, nor do I consider that to be British means becoming in some manner an Anglican, or adopting Western Catholic forms.

Even the Anglicans who did become Orthodox with the Antiochians became Eastern Rite, and I am not in a position to know whether or not they feel that they need to become Eastern Orthodox as well as Eastern Rite. But for my own community, we are, as I described, Western Orthodox using Eastern Rites, very comfortably, and without diminishing our sense of being entirely British. Perhaps it is because I was never an Anglican that I am not very concerned about which rites I am instructed to use by my bishop. It seems much more important to me that I enter into the prayers as much as possible, and I believe that this depends on the quality of the prayers rather than their origin. I am sure that in other circumstances I would be as content to pray as a Western Orthodox priest using an Armenian Rite in English, or a Syriac in English, or St John Chrysostom in English, while I actually use St James. As far as my experience goes, the process of translating the liturgy (of St James) into good, liturgical English makes it a Western Rite.

I am entirely British, even English. I love the heritage of my own country. My patron saint is buried 20 miles from where I am typing. There are the remains of Christian churches within 20 miles of my home which date back to the 4th century. But in my experience, and this is just my experience, I feel no need to use liturgical forms from the distant past in the West to validate my Western Orthodoxy. I wonder if that is one reason (I know there are others) for the lack of success in the UK for the Western Rite? That is, that since we ARE British and English we don't need to prove it, and whatever we do in our own language, unless we are trying to become a pretend Russian , Greek or Egyptian, is already Western and Orthodox. 
 

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Deacon Lance said:
Irish Hermit said:
Michał said:
Irish Hermit said:
It most certainly has been approved, by Metropolitan Hilarion who has also always allowed its sale in church bookshops and there are now plans to reprint it with his blessing.

But it also has to be noted that in the ROCOR Fr. Aidan's Sarum is used only by himself...
Your point?

What priests in ROCA use Dom James Deschene's Black Benedictine books and his form of the Tridentine Mass?  Only himself.

What priests in ROCA use Abbot David Pierce's form of the Sarum (Achbp John LoBue's) cum Dom Augustine's Mt Royal preferences?  Only himself.

What priests in ROCA use the Gallican forms of Fr Allyne Lev Smith?  Only himself.
The point it would seem is the ROCOR Western Rite is subjected to the personal preferences and idiosyncrasies of the few priests it has.
I always thought the whole Western Orthodox idea was to remove a stumbling block to Protestants becoming Orthodox. If they were attached to their liturgy, OK, clean up the parts that are doctrinally heterodox and you can still use the Coverdale prayer book. I can't imagine individual priests have that much latitude, even with the Western rite. I mean, the Antiochian archdiocese just suspended a priest for wearing his cassock in public, in defiance of Metropolitan Philip's orders. How much leeway is he gonna give on liturgy?
 

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peterfarrington said:
I'm very thankful that Orthodoxy has provided a way for those of us with a more Western mindset to have a fulfilling and authentic form of worship.
I don't think that I could have a more Western mindset. I am English, and then British, and proud to be so going back to unrecorded history. I don't think it is fair to suggest that people with a 'Western mindset' become WR. I am very happy being Western and Orthodox and I don't find the Western liturgical tradition immediately makes a connection with me because I was never Anglican. In my experience most WR enthusiasts are Anglican. (That is not a criticism, but an observation).

If it was required that I learn Arabic and/or Coptic to be able to worship I would not be as comfortable in my situation as I am. But in fact as a small missionary diocese of mostly British people in the Coptic Patriarchate I find myself under no pressure to become an Egyptian, and find that the forms of worship we use are entirely accessible to English people. Indeed our diocese has been tasked with sharing our Orthodoxy in a British ethos. As an entirely British person this has NEVER meant being Anglican to me, nor do I consider that to be British means becoming in some manner an Anglican, or adopting Western Catholic forms.

Even the Anglicans who did become Orthodox with the Antiochians became Eastern Rite, and I am not in a position to know whether or not they feel that they need to become Eastern Orthodox as well as Eastern Rite. But for my own community, we are, as I described, Western Orthodox using Eastern Rites, very comfortably, and without diminishing our sense of being entirely British. Perhaps it is because I was never an Anglican that I am not very concerned about which rites I am instructed to use by my bishop. It seems much more important to me that I enter into the prayers as much as possible, and I believe that this depends on the quality of the prayers rather than their origin. I am sure that in other circumstances I would be as content to pray as a Western Orthodox priest using an Armenian Rite in English, or a Syriac in English, or St John Chrysostom in English, while I actually use St James. As far as my experience goes, the process of translating the liturgy (of St James) into good, liturgical English makes it a Western Rite.

I am entirely British, even English. I love the heritage of my own country. My patron saint is buried 20 miles from where I am typing. There are the remains of Christian churches within 20 miles of my home which date back to the 4th century. But in my experience, and this is just my experience, I feel no need to use liturgical forms from the distant past in the West to validate my Western Orthodoxy. I wonder if that is one reason (I know there are others) for the lack of success in the UK for the Western Rite? That is, that since we ARE British and English we don't need to prove it, and whatever we do in our own language, unless we are trying to become a pretend Russian , Greek or Egyptian, is already Western and Orthodox. 
Wonderful post, but honestly, I wasn't trying to imply otherwise!  See my reply to you in the other thread you commented on. 
 

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Hermogenes said:
I always thought the whole Western Orthodox idea was to remove a stumbling block to Protestants becoming Orthodox.
That's part of it, but not anywhere near the whole of the idea.  First and foremost is for those who love and treasure the ancient Western expression of the Faith to participate in bringing it back home to Orthodoxy and redeeming it.  It would be done whether there is was a missionary opportunity or not.  It's for the glory of God.
 

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Sleeper said:
Hermogenes said:
I always thought the whole Western Orthodox idea was to remove a stumbling block to Protestants becoming Orthodox.
That's part of it, but not anywhere near the whole of the idea.  First and foremost is for those who love and treasure the ancient Western expression of the Faith to participate in bringing it back home to Orthodoxy and redeeming it.  It would be done whether there is was a missionary opportunity or not.  It's for the glory of God.
But the issue, amply argued on this thread, is that the "ancient" Western expressions have not been preserved in any form we really understand. There's nothing like the continuity of the Eastern rite. The Dark Ages ensured that books would be scarce to begin with. The reformation and Counter-Reformation ensured that most of the primary sources would be damaged or destroyed and institutional memory mostly wiped out. Our understanding of pre-Tridentine forms is sketchy and fragmentary at best, which makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to construct a coherent liturgy. It's a nice idea, but there's just no practical basis on which to realize it.
 

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Sure, I can understand that.  However (and I realize many won't agree with this, or like it) but the ancient Western rites have been preserved; they've just been preserved by heterodox churches.

The Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate gets a ton of vehement flack for taking the approach they take, but there was actually a rationale behind it, believe it or not (and it wasn't one of pandering to people who refused to change, or any other charge that gets thrown around willy-nilly).  The fact is that the Rites of St. Gregory and St. Tikhon are adapted/corrected versions of the ancient rites that have survived and have been preserved by those who continued to use them.

Yes changes were made and things reflected the results of the Schism (which is why corrections were needed) but this seemed to be the best approach precisely because they are the rites that have continued to exist amongst the Western people.

It is correct that the ancient rites, as they were then, can be difficult to figure out as far as rubrics and such.  Which is why the AWRV chose the path of adapting the existing rites, rather than insist on a pre-Schism liturgy, which would ultimately amount to a "living museum" of sorts, or an historical reenactment.

In Bishop BASIL's words, “You are the inheritors of a precious treasure: the authentic and Orthodox rites that nourished thousands now in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Orthodox Church thanks you for preserving this tradition all these years, so that it could be restored to her through Western Rite Orthodox parishes."

Yes, from an Orthodox perspective, these Western rites were "lost" in that they ceased to be a part of the Undivided Church; but in a practical and literal way, they weren't lost at all but were continued to be used by those bodies that got swept away in the Schism.

Again, I realize this won't satisfy many people, but to me it's a sane and reasonable approach.
 

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Sleeper said:
Sure, I can understand that.  However (and I realize many won't agree with this, or like it) but the ancient Western rites have been preserved; they've just been preserved by heterodox churches.

The Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate gets a ton of vehement flack for taking the approach they take, but there was actually a rationale behind it, believe it or not (and it wasn't one of pandering to people who refused to change, or any other charge that gets thrown around willy-nilly).  The fact is that the Rites of St. Gregory and St. Tikhon are adapted/corrected versions of the ancient rites that have survived and have been preserved by those who continued to use them.

Yes changes were made and things reflected the results of the Schism (which is why corrections were needed) but this seemed to be the best approach precisely because they are the rites that have continued to exist amongst the Western people.

It is correct that the ancient rites, as they were then, can be difficult to figure out as far as rubrics and such.  Which is why the AWRV chose the path of adapting the existing rites, rather than insist on a pre-Schism liturgy, which would ultimately amount to a "living museum" of sorts, or an historical reenactment.

In Bishop BASIL's words, “You are the inheritors of a precious treasure: the authentic and Orthodox rites that nourished thousands now in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Orthodox Church thanks you for preserving this tradition all these years, so that it could be restored to her through Western Rite Orthodox parishes."

Yes, from an Orthodox perspective, these Western rites were "lost" in that they ceased to be a part of the Undivided Church; but in a practical and literal way, they weren't lost at all but were continued to be used by those bodies that got swept away in the Schism.

Again, I realize this won't satisfy many people, but to me it's a sane and reasonable approach.
A reasonable approach, at any rate.

I think one reason I find the whole debate puzzling is that the Eastern liturgy is so deeply moving to me. I can't imagine my spiritual life without it.
 
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