• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Epstein

Status
Not open for further replies.

biro

Protostrator
Site Supporter
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
24,335
Reaction score
699
Points
113
Age
49
Website
archiveofourown.org
Faith
Episcopal
Jurisdiction
Diocese of Florida
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself in prison.

Jesus said we must pray for our enemies, but how can we pray for a person like that?

In the book of Genesis, Dinah was raped and her brothers chased down the culprits and killed them. For an example.

What are we supposed to do?
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,821
Reaction score
918
Points
113
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
The Book of Genesis is in the OT - eye for an eye, etc.

Christ, taught us to turn the other cheek, forgive, and pray for our enemies.  Only then would be the "children of God".

He, and we, will answer before God for our actions, words, and inactions, etc.

You ask what are we supposed to do?

We pray that the Lord forgives him his sins (heaven is boundless, there's no reason to wish hell on anyone), and we pray the Lord heals the individuals he hurt, and educates the public to the atrocities humanity commits... in the hopes that others will not fall victim, will not support when they realize such is happening, and will work to stop the abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on us all... because we are all guilty of something.
 

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
9,978
Reaction score
1,193
Points
113
Age
25
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Faith
Big-O Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Exarchate of Gotham City
You're right, this is hard. One might force themselves to pray for him, at least with the right words and the right posture, but holding a sincere heart through it is harder...

I love St. Silouan the Athonite exactly for how extremely he took the principle of love and prayer for our enemies.

I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit who declared with evident satisfaction,

‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

Obviously upset, The Staretz said,

‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there you looked down and saw someone burning in hell-fire – would you feel happy?’

‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him in a sorrowful countenance:

‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all.’
 

MalpanaGiwargis

High Elder
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
701
Reaction score
54
Points
28
Location
Atlanta, GA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
ACROD
It's part of the central scandal of Christianity - God loves everyone who was created in His image, and this includes Jeffrey Epstein. Praying for Epstein's repose seems like an imperative, difficult as it is to square with human justice and our sense of revulsion at his crimes.
 

Ainnir

Merarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
8,357
Reaction score
1,469
Points
113
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
"If your enemy falls, do not rejoice over him, and do not exalt yourself at his stumbling; because the Lord will see this, and it will not please Him, and He will turn His anger from him."  Proverbs 24:17

 

Eamonomae

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
55
Points
48
Faith
Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction
Constantine's Lost Rome
biro said:
Jeffrey Epstein killed himself in prison.

Jesus said we must pray for our enemies, but how can we pray for a person like that?

In the book of Genesis, Dinah was raped and her brothers chased down the culprits and killed them. For an example.

What are we supposed to do?
After being scandalized by Him - such that Caiaphas ripped off his vestments, mocking Him, spitting at Him, fashioning a Crown of Thorns and forcing it down on His head, flagellating Him several times, stripping Him down naked in public for public humiliation, forcing Him to carry a tree after all of this to His execution spot, pounding nails into His hands and feet on this tree, and putting the tree up such that He would suffocate in a grueling fashion due to pressure, while others would continue to mock Him, saying things like "If you are truly the Messiah, why don't you come down from there?", Jesus still said "Father, forgive them, for they no not what they do." Most of all, we must remember the Holy Virgin Mary, who in sorrow watching her baby boy dying and mocked in such a way, in her heart forgave them.
 

Eamonomae

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
55
Points
48
Faith
Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction
Constantine's Lost Rome
Remember, every single human being, no matter how evil they can get, are still made in the Image and Likeness of God, and no matter how corrupt they become, their evil pales in the comparison to the Love of God; Saint Isaac the Syrian said that every single sin when combined together compared to God is like a handful of sand thrown into the ocean.

Plus, even though the circumstances are different - Epstein is dead and Deborah's rapist wasn't - even though Israel had a pretty rigorous moral and legal standard to follow for God, it was still imperfect and flawed, as Jesus makes clear when He talks about Moses's permissiveness of divorce.
 

Crucifer

Archon
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
3,068
Reaction score
3
Points
38
Age
62
Location
VA
Website
www.uscj.org
Faith
Jewish(Conservative)
He could of at least had the decency to wait until after the trial so he could testify against his co-conspirators. Now most of them won't have to answer for what they did.
 

Richmond

Sr. Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
237
Reaction score
47
Points
28
Location
4625 kHz
Faith
Confused Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
LizaSymonenko said:
The Book of Genesis is in the OT - eye for an eye, etc.

Christ, taught us to turn the other cheek, forgive, and pray for our enemies.  Only then would be the "children of God".

He, and we, will answer before God for our actions, words, and inactions, etc.

You ask what are we supposed to do?

We pray that the Lord forgives him his sins (heaven is boundless, there's no reason to wish hell on anyone), and we pray the Lord heals the individuals he hurt, and educates the public to the atrocities humanity commits... in the hopes that others will not fall victim, will not support when they realize such is happening, and will work to stop the abuse.

May the Lord have mercy on us all... because we are all guilty of something.
How does "turn the other cheek" mean we should seek justice or resist evil? Doesn't it simply mean that we allow ourselves to be victims of unchecked evil?
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,821
Reaction score
918
Points
113
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Tallitot said:
He could of at least had the decency to wait until after the trial so he could testify against his co-conspirators. Now most of them won't have to answer for what they did.
That assumes it truly was a suicide, and not a murder.  Only God knows.
 

Luke

Merarches
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
8,099
Reaction score
519
Points
113
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Metropolis of San Francisco
biro said:
In the book of Genesis, Dinah was raped and her brothers chased down the culprits and killed them.
But Jacob (Israel) was not pleased with their response:

"Then Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You have brought trouble on me by making me odious among the inhabitants of the land, among the Canaanites and the Perizzites; and my men being few in number, they will gather together against me and attack me and I will be destroyed, I and my household.” -- Genesis 34:30, NASB.

"Simeon and Levi are brothers; Their swords are implements of violence.  “Let my soul not enter into their council;
Let not my glory be united with their assembly; Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen.
“Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; And their wrath, for it is cruel. I will disperse them in Jacob, And scatter them in Israel." -- Genesis 49: 5-7, NASB.
 

platypus

High Elder
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
713
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Richmond said:
How does "turn the other cheek" mean we should seek justice or resist evil?
It doesn't - it also doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek justice.

Richmond said:
Doesn't it simply mean that we allow ourselves to be victims of unchecked evil?
Whether or not we should allow ourselves to be victims, I think depends on the circumstance. Even Christ didn't allow himself to be killed the first time people tried to. He ran away from those who tried to stone him in the 8th and 10th chapters of John's gospel. But when it was time, he allowed himself to be killed. So I don't think one could realisticly interpret his saying to mean we should always allow people to harm us.

And whether or not we should allow others to be harmed is a different question entirely. I think the whole of the Old Testament law speaks to the importance of protecting the innocent from the guilty. And in Romans 13 St. Paul speaks of the importance of obeying the government, which leads me to believe God expects us to cooperate in the administration of justice.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,394
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
How much fear did he have before he killed himself?  Lord, have mercy.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-death-shrieking-heard-jail-cell-morning-he-died-metropolitan-correctional-center/
 

CooperDog

Sr. Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
179
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Location
Illinois
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Midwest
Killed himself?

I doubt he killed himself
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,394
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
CooperDog said:
Killed himself?

I doubt he killed himself
What do you mean?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top