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Fast of Nineveh

peterfarrington

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The Coptic Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox and Church of the East keep the Fast of Nineveh for 3 days in the period before Great Lent, and it was introduced into Egypt through the influence of Syrian Patriarchs of Alexandria.

Do the Armenians know this Fast?
 

Aram

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Armenians have the Fast of the Catechumens, a three-day fast that begins three weeks before the start of Lent. In my experience, it's not generally observed. I never even heard of it until recently.
 

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The Remembrance of the Prophet Jonah is during the Fast of the Catechumens.

http://www.wdacna.com/feasts-sacraments

(Click on February.)

Where I am, many people (particularly women) do fast at this time, but it's for St. Sarkis.  There are folk traditions connected to the practice of fasting for St. Sarkis, so the Prophet Jonah kind of gets forgotten in all this. 
 

Alpha60

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Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today

Fortunately the fact that comes from an SVS article, and SVS accepting OO seminarians, shows that the cream of Eastern Orthodox intelligentsia and most of the high-end clergy are pro-reunion to the point where reunion is in the process of reimplementation.
 

Alpha60

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Father Peter said:
All very interesting and many thanks. I was asking Mar Awa Royel of the Church of the East about this Fast and he had asked if the Armenians keep it. Thanks again.
I really like Mar Awa Royel.  He is a very nice bishop.  I first met him at St. Mary’s the week after the consecration of the Mar Dinkha liturgy where I to my great chagrin fell down a marble staircase requiring my premature departure.  :-X

He is also the bishop for this area and I suspect mainly his age prevented him from replacing Mar Dinkha IV.

Fortunately the ushers assisted me in getting to my car and my friend drove, and the staircase is not remotely visible from the Narthex, so the Catholicos never saw taking a plunge.  It was nonetheless a most embarassing moment.
 

jobin219

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Salpy said:
The Remembrance of the Prophet Jonah is during the Fast of the Catechumens.

http://www.wdacna.com/feasts-sacraments

(Click on February.)

Where I am, many people (particularly women) do fast at this time, but it's for St. Sarkis.  There are folk traditions connected to the practice of fasting for St. Sarkis, so the Prophet Jonah kind of gets forgotten in all this.
Are there any historical references to the tradition that this fast in the Armenian Church is from the time of St. Gregory the Illuminator?
 

Salpy

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I'm sure there are, but I don't know them.  Fr. Daniel Findikyan, of the Eastern Diocese, would surely know, but he's probably really busy these days.  :)
 

Alpha60

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jobin219 said:
Salpy said:
The Remembrance of the Prophet Jonah is during the Fast of the Catechumens.

http://www.wdacna.com/feasts-sacraments

(Click on February.)

Where I am, many people (particularly women) do fast at this time, but it's for St. Sarkis.  There are folk traditions connected to the practice of fasting for St. Sarkis, so the Prophet Jonah kind of gets forgotten in all this.
Are there any historical references to the tradition that this fast in the Armenian Church is from the time of St. Gregory the Illuminator?
I would doubt this, because I think this fast emerged among Jews in Mesopotamia in the Nineveh Plains area of modern day Iraq, which is the epicenter of Syriac Christianity since the depopulation of Tur Abdin in Turkey, who were evangelized by St. Thomas the Apostle, and who formed the backbone of the Syriac Orthodox Maphrianate and the Assyrian Church of the East.  The other Oriental Orthodox churches I believe picked up the fast because of the prestige of Syriac Orthodox theologians and liturgists in the sixth century, like St. Jacob Barradaeus, who consecrated a veritable army of bishops, St. Severus of Antioch, who defeated St. Justinian in a polemical war and whose theopaschite theology as reflected in the hymn Ho Monogenes ultimately triumphed in all Orthodox churches over Justinian’s minor heresy of apthartodocetism, St. Jacob of Sarugh, the “Flute of the Spirit” whose work complemented that of St. Ephrem, and others.

What we know for sure is that the fast in its present form was imposed by St. Marutha of Tikrit, the serving Maphrian (historically, the vice-Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church charged with supervising the Mesopotamian and Persian sectors, where the church overlapped with the Assyrian Church of the East, and whose position was created to replace the Catholicos of the East after the Nestorian-influenced rupture), in 649.  Presumably it then flowed into the other churches, but I expect some antecedent to the present form of the fast existed.
 

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Deacon Lance

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Alpha60 said:
jobin219 said:
Salpy said:
The Remembrance of the Prophet Jonah is during the Fast of the Catechumens.

http://www.wdacna.com/feasts-sacraments

(Click on February.)

Where I am, many people (particularly women) do fast at this time, but it's for St. Sarkis.  There are folk traditions connected to the practice of fasting for St. Sarkis, so the Prophet Jonah kind of gets forgotten in all this.
Are there any historical references to the tradition that this fast in the Armenian Church is from the time of St. Gregory the Illuminator?
I would doubt this, because I think this fast emerged among Jews in Mesopotamia in the Nineveh Plains area of modern day Iraq, which is the epicenter of Syriac Christianity since the depopulation of Tur Abdin in Turkey, who were evangelized by St. Thomas the Apostle, and who formed the backbone of the Syriac Orthodox Maphrianate and the Assyrian Church of the East.  The other Oriental Orthodox churches I believe picked up the fast because of the prestige of Syriac Orthodox theologians and liturgists in the sixth century, like St. Jacob Barradaeus, who consecrated a veritable army of bishops, St. Severus of Antioch, who defeated St. Justinian in a polemical war and whose theopaschite theology as reflected in the hymn Ho Monogenes ultimately triumphed in all Orthodox churches over Justinian’s minor heresy of apthartodocetism, St. Jacob of Sarugh, the “Flute of the Spirit” whose work complemented that of St. Ephrem, and others.

What we know for sure is that the fast in its present form was imposed by St. Marutha of Tikrit, the serving Maphrian (historically, the vice-Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church charged with supervising the Mesopotamian and Persian sectors, where the church overlapped with the Assyrian Church of the East, and whose position was created to replace the Catholicos of the East after the Nestorian-influenced rupture), in 649.  Presumably it then flowed into the other churches, but I expect some antecedent to the present form of the fast existed.
It was Julian of Halicarnassus who authored aphthartodocetism.  Also Theopaschite theology was championed by the Scythian monks who were supported by Justinian and saw their formula adopted by the Second Council of Constantinople of which canon 10 reads: "If anyone does not confess that our Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified in flesh is true God and Lord of glory and one of the holy Trinity, let him be anathema".
 

Alpha60

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Deacon Lance said:
Alpha60 said:
jobin219 said:
Salpy said:
The Remembrance of the Prophet Jonah is during the Fast of the Catechumens.

http://www.wdacna.com/feasts-sacraments

(Click on February.)

Where I am, many people (particularly women) do fast at this time, but it's for St. Sarkis.  There are folk traditions connected to the practice of fasting for St. Sarkis, so the Prophet Jonah kind of gets forgotten in all this.
Are there any historical references to the tradition that this fast in the Armenian Church is from the time of St. Gregory the Illuminator?
I would doubt this, because I think this fast emerged among Jews in Mesopotamia in the Nineveh Plains area of modern day Iraq, which is the epicenter of Syriac Christianity since the depopulation of Tur Abdin in Turkey, who were evangelized by St. Thomas the Apostle, and who formed the backbone of the Syriac Orthodox Maphrianate and the Assyrian Church of the East.  The other Oriental Orthodox churches I believe picked up the fast because of the prestige of Syriac Orthodox theologians and liturgists in the sixth century, like St. Jacob Barradaeus, who consecrated a veritable army of bishops, St. Severus of Antioch, who defeated St. Justinian in a polemical war and whose theopaschite theology as reflected in the hymn Ho Monogenes ultimately triumphed in all Orthodox churches over Justinian’s minor heresy of apthartodocetism, St. Jacob of Sarugh, the “Flute of the Spirit” whose work complemented that of St. Ephrem, and others.

What we know for sure is that the fast in its present form was imposed by St. Marutha of Tikrit, the serving Maphrian (historically, the vice-Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church charged with supervising the Mesopotamian and Persian sectors, where the church overlapped with the Assyrian Church of the East, and whose position was created to replace the Catholicos of the East after the Nestorian-influenced rupture), in 649.  Presumably it then flowed into the other churches, but I expect some antecedent to the present form of the fast existed.
It was Julian of Halicarnassus who authored aphthartodocetism.  Also Theopaschite theology was championed by the Scythian monks who were supported by Justinian and saw their formula adopted by the Second Council of Constantinople of which canon 10 reads: "If anyone does not confess that our Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified in flesh is true God and Lord of glory and one of the holy Trinity, let him be anathema".
That may be correct, but it does not address the fact that Justinian endorsed an edict intended to promulgate apathartodocetism.  Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=NjVaCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=justinian+apthartodocetism&source=bl&ots=_uSmtERIAf&sig=ACfU3U1pvuAX-qyG5vD23bI0k4hqjtHwKQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAg-KtyLzgAhU4IjQIHVwYBL0Q6AEwDXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=justinian%20apthartodocetism&f=false

St. Justinian clearly vacillated on this issue, because he was a key driving force behind the addition of the hymn Ho Monogenes to the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, a hymn which originated in Oriental Orthodoxy most likely in the Syriac church under St. Severus, but which some of us also attribute variously to St. Cyril or St. Athanasius.  I think the attribution to St. Severus is correct because this hymn is used to open the Qurbono Qadisho.  Ho Monogenes is very nearly the sine qua non of Christological Orthodoxy; my view is that whoever confesses it cannot be a Nestorian or a Eutychian.  It also repaired Chalcedonian Christianity.  The Assyrians do not use it as far as I am aware, but your church determined their Christology was acceptable and I accept that determination.  Ordinarily however, I want to see the Ho Monogenes, and I daresay the Christological heresies of Calvinism would have been less likely if Pope Gregory I had put it in the Roman mass as one of the main hymns.

Actually the inclusion of Ho Monogenes in the EO liturgy under St. Justinian is the main reason I regard him as a saint, possibly the only reason.  I suspect his Oriental Orthodox wife St. Theodora had a major positive influence on him, and depending on the health of their relationship, Orthodoxy flowed into St. Justinian through her blessed lips.  Would that I could have a wife like St. Theodora!

At any rate, Severian is the “lost saint” of Eastern Orthodoxy.  I dispute, for technical reasons, the anathemas against Diodore of Tarsus, and most especially Origen Adamantius and Theodore of Mopsuestia, because they died in the peace of the church, and I think it is wrong to anathematize someone post-mortem.  Origen and Mar Theorore made huge contributions to Orthodox theology.  And Origen’s error of the transmigration of souls was also made by St. Gregory of Nyssa, and worse, by St. Isaac the Syrian, who was glorified universally despite being a member of the Church of the East (some Greeks who hate Assyrians have tried to argue there were two Isaacs and Sebastian Brock is confusing them, but the quality of Professor Brock’s scholarship is unimpeachable in the face of blind fanatacism).

However, it was St. Severus who made a gigantic contribution; modern EO and OO Christology is by and large the fruit of his careful and consistent theology and Christology.  St. Severus should have EO cathedrals named after him and be remembered in the same breath as Sts. Cyril, Athanasius, Basil, and Gregory Nazianzus.  Rome should hail him as a Doctor of the Church; he is much more worthy of that title than many people Rome granted it to.  His influence permeates our understanding of the union of humanity and divinity in the person of Jesus Christ, a union without confusion, change or separation; his writings are a glorious summary of the doctrine of the Incarnation of God as exposited by Sts. Athanasius and Cyril.

And the best contemporary treatise on Christology, indeed probably the only one worth reading, was written by our own Father Peter.  Being a mod, he obviously can’t promote his book here, but in my opinion every OCNetter interested in Christology, the Oriental churches, the controversies of the fourth through eighth centuries concerning our Lord, and related issues, should have a copy.  And you can get it as ab ebook on Amazon and iBooks.  It is a monumentoud achievement, and if Father Peter reposed tomorrow, which I really hope does not happen (rather, many years to you, Father, and axios!), also many years and axios to you, Fr. Deacon Lance; the book alone would be sufficient cause for Father Peter to be glorified ecumenically after the manner of St. Isaac.

 

Deacon Lance

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Justinian died before that edict could be promulgated.  Divine intervention?  He wavered between Miaphystism and Dyophysitism his whole life.  The Three Chapters condemnation was meant to appease the Miaphysites but in the end sided with Julian over Severus.
 

augustin717

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RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today
LOL
A Romanian book-with Greek origins no doubt -ascribed the origin of this fast to an Armenian’s king grief over the death of his pet dog.
 

jobin219

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Alpha60 said:
jobin219 said:
Salpy said:
The Remembrance of the Prophet Jonah is during the Fast of the Catechumens.

http://www.wdacna.com/feasts-sacraments

(Click on February.)

Where I am, many people (particularly women) do fast at this time, but it's for St. Sarkis.  There are folk traditions connected to the practice of fasting for St. Sarkis, so the Prophet Jonah kind of gets forgotten in all this.
Are there any historical references to the tradition that this fast in the Armenian Church is from the time of St. Gregory the Illuminator?
What we know for sure is that the fast in its present form was imposed by St. Marutha of Tikrit, the serving Maphrian (historically, the vice-Patriarch of the Syriac Orthodox Church charged with supervising the Mesopotamian and Persian sectors, where the church overlapped with the Assyrian Church of the East, and whose position was created to replace the Catholicos of the East after the Nestorian-influenced rupture), in 649.  Presumably it then flowed into the other churches, but I expect some antecedent to the present form of the fast existed.
According to the thrice blessed late Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka I Iwas of blessed memory, "This fast began to be practiced in our church towards the fourth Century AD. This can be inferred from the memres of St. Ephrem, the Syrian (373) and the hymns he composed in the past...The 3 days fast had been neglected through time until later. [officially reinstated by Mor Marutha of Takrit sometime between 628-649 AD]."
 

peterfarrington

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I have seen the reference to the hymns of St Ephrem but I could find nothing in them that indicated the Fast of Nineveh, and I would have expected a 3rd century origin to be reflected in EO practice of the Fast, while a slightly later origin to reflect the current situation where it is used by the OO and ACE.

Is there a particular hymn that refers to the Fast of Nineveh, rather than only the Fast of the Ninevites in the OT?
 

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Father Peter said:
I have seen the reference to the hymns of St Ephrem but I could find nothing in them that indicated the Fast of Nineveh, and I would have expected a 3rd century origin to be reflected in EO practice of the Fast, while a slightly later origin to reflect the current situation where it is used by the OO and ACE.

Is there a particular hymn that refers to the Fast of Nineveh, rather than only the Fast of the Ninevites in the OT?
Barekmor Father, even I'm wondering if the thrice blessed late Patriarch is referencing a different set of hymns by St. Ephrem which specifically alludes to a fast of Jonah. While I haven't read the metrical homilies "The Repentance of Nineveh" by St. Ephrem yet, I'm told that there is nothing particular in them that would confirm this fast being present at St. Ephrem's time.
 

peterfarrington

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That's what I had thought when I saw an excerpt from St Ephrem that was supposed to refer to the Fast but really didn't seem to. And I was looking through the hymns of St Severus and he doesn't seem to reference the Fast in his time in any obvious manner.
 

Alpha60

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I am of the opinion that if there is a new OO church in Britain or America, this fast could be dropped, as it is not especially relevant.  I consider it something instituted by a Syriac Orthodox Maphrian in Iraq; the center of Syriac Christianity in that country is the Nineveh Plains, and the Assyrians immediately picked it up because in that era, the Maphrian and the Catholicos of the East tended to get along quite well.  The other OO churches quickly picked it up because of the prestige of the Patriarch of Antioch and the preponderance of OO saints in the early years who were either Antiochene Greeks or Syriacs (Sts. Severus, Peter Fullo, Jacob bar Addai, Jacob of Sarugh, Philoxenus of Mabbug, and others).  Later on, it looks like the Armenian church recontextualized the fast to focus primarily on the Catechumens and St. Sarkis, while retaining some references to Jonah.

Now, as a Syriac Orthodox Christian, I respect this fast greatly, but I don’t regard it as an essential element of Oriental Orthodoxy.
 

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Alpha60 said:
I am of the opinion that if there is a new OO church in Britain or America, this fast could be dropped, as it is not especially relevant.  I consider it something instituted by a Syriac Orthodox Maphrian in Iraq; the center of Syriac Christianity in that country is the Nineveh Plains, and the Assyrians immediately picked it up because in that era, the Maphrian and the Catholicos of the East tended to get along quite well.  The other OO churches quickly picked it up because of the prestige of the Patriarch of Antioch and the preponderance of OO saints in the early years who were either Antiochene Greeks or Syriacs (Sts. Severus, Peter Fullo, Jacob bar Addai, Jacob of Sarugh, Philoxenus of Mabbug, and others).  Later on, it looks like the Armenian church recontextualized the fast to focus primarily on the Catechumens and St. Sarkis, while retaining some references to Jonah.

Now, as a Syriac Orthodox Christian, I respect this fast greatly, but I don’t regard it as an essential element of Oriental Orthodoxy.
From the same article by the thrice blessed Patriarch Mor Ignatius Zakka, Mor Marutha instituted this fast after a crisis in Herat, which is in modern day Afghanistan.
 

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augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today
LOL
A Romanian book-with Greek origins no doubt -ascribed the origin of this fast to an Armenian’s king grief over the death of his pet dog.
This only gets simultaneously worse and better.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Alpha60 said:
I am of the opinion that if there is a new OO church in Britain or America, this fast could be dropped, as it is not especially relevant.  I consider it something instituted by a Syriac Orthodox Maphrian in Iraq; the center of Syriac Christianity in that country is the Nineveh Plains, and the Assyrians immediately picked it up because in that era, the Maphrian and the Catholicos of the East tended to get along quite well.  The other OO churches quickly picked it up because of the prestige of the Patriarch of Antioch and the preponderance of OO saints in the early years who were either Antiochene Greeks or Syriacs (Sts. Severus, Peter Fullo, Jacob bar Addai, Jacob of Sarugh, Philoxenus of Mabbug, and others).  Later on, it looks like the Armenian church recontextualized the fast to focus primarily on the Catechumens and St. Sarkis, while retaining some references to Jonah.

Now, as a Syriac Orthodox Christian, I respect this fast greatly, but I don’t regard it as an essential element of Oriental Orthodoxy.
-1
 

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RaphaCam said:
augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today
LOL
A Romanian book-with Greek origins no doubt -ascribed the origin of this fast to an Armenian’s king grief over the death of his pet dog.
This only gets simultaneously worse and better.
+1
 

augustin717

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RaphaCam said:
augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today
LOL
A Romanian book-with Greek origins no doubt -ascribed the origin of this fast to an Armenian’s king grief over the death of his pet dog.
This only gets simultaneously worse and better.
The Romanian Orthodox Church routinely taught and diffuse such ridiculous claims. There was this handbook of “Sectology” by deacon . I. David,  used in seminaries. It was full of rthe most ridiculous and outrageous claims. I remember reading that the Seventh Day Adventists use Coca Cola for communion, or some Pentecostal sect turn off the lights during their meetings and then the brethren proceed to  “know” the sisters. It was a trip and was always printed with the blessing of the Holy Synod.
 

Mor Ephrem

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augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today
LOL
A Romanian book-with Greek origins no doubt -ascribed the origin of this fast to an Armenian’s king grief over the death of his pet dog.
This only gets simultaneously worse and better.
The Romanian Orthodox Church routinely taught and diffuse such ridiculous claims. There was this handbook of “Sectology” by deacon . I. David,  used in seminaries. It was full of rthe most ridiculous and outrageous claims. I remember reading that the Seventh Day Adventists use Coca Cola for communion, or some Pentecostal sect turn off the lights during their meetings and then the brethren proceed to  “know” the sisters. It was a trip and was always printed with the blessing of the Holy Synod.
Is this book available in English?  If not, how do you recommend I go about learning Romanian?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today
LOL
A Romanian book-with Greek origins no doubt -ascribed the origin of this fast to an Armenian’s king grief over the death of his pet dog.
This only gets simultaneously worse and better.
The Romanian Orthodox Church routinely taught and diffuse such ridiculous claims. There was this handbook of “Sectology” by deacon . I. David,  used in seminaries. It was full of rthe most ridiculous and outrageous claims. I remember reading that the Seventh Day Adventists use Coca Cola for communion, or some Pentecostal sect turn off the lights during their meetings and then the brethren proceed to  “know” the sisters. It was a trip and was always printed with the blessing of the Holy Synod.
Is this book available in English?  If not, how do you recommend I go about learning Romanian?
Alas, it’s not but perhaps Patristic Nectar should know about it.
 

Mor Ephrem

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augustin717 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
augustin717 said:
RaphaCam said:
Alpha60 said:
Nonetheless, we know that observation of a full three day fast at this time is customary for the Armenians, because old copies of the Triodion regarding the week following Septuagesima say as much about “the impious Armenians” and go onto state that in order to refute their “damnable heresy” the Greeks eat meat and cheese the entire week.  ::)

Source:  https://www.svots.edu/content/beyond-dialogue-quest-eastern-and-oriental-orthodox-unity-today
LOL
A Romanian book-with Greek origins no doubt -ascribed the origin of this fast to an Armenian’s king grief over the death of his pet dog.
This only gets simultaneously worse and better.
The Romanian Orthodox Church routinely taught and diffuse such ridiculous claims. There was this handbook of “Sectology” by deacon . I. David,  used in seminaries. It was full of rthe most ridiculous and outrageous claims. I remember reading that the Seventh Day Adventists use Coca Cola for communion, or some Pentecostal sect turn off the lights during their meetings and then the brethren proceed to  “know” the sisters. It was a trip and was always printed with the blessing of the Holy Synod.
Is this book available in English?  If not, how do you recommend I go about learning Romanian?
Alas, it’s not but perhaps Patristic Nectar should know about it.
LOL.
 

Alpha60

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Mor Ephrem said:
Alpha60 said:
I am of the opinion that if there is a new OO church in Britain or America, this fast could be dropped, as it is not especially relevant.  I consider it something instituted by a Syriac Orthodox Maphrian in Iraq; the center of Syriac Christianity in that country is the Nineveh Plains, and the Assyrians immediately picked it up because in that era, the Maphrian and the Catholicos of the East tended to get along quite well.  The other OO churches quickly picked it up because of the prestige of the Patriarch of Antioch and the preponderance of OO saints in the early years who were either Antiochene Greeks or Syriacs (Sts. Severus, Peter Fullo, Jacob bar Addai, Jacob of Sarugh, Philoxenus of Mabbug, and others).  Later on, it looks like the Armenian church recontextualized the fast to focus primarily on the Catechumens and St. Sarkis, while retaining some references to Jonah.

Now, as a Syriac Orthodox Christian, I respect this fast greatly, but I don’t regard it as an essential element of Oriental Orthodoxy.
-1
I don’t follow.  This severe pre-Lenten fast could well be a stumbling block for converts, and the fact the Assyrians have used it despite apparent Nestorian influence after its promulgation, and indeed, are among ite major users, shows that the fast is not immediately relevant to our preservation of the Christology of St. Cyril.  So if St. George’s Mission grows into a new autonomous Orthodox Church of Britain, and something similiar were to happen elsewhere, or if we somehow managed to get some Byzantine Rite parishes of EC or EO provenance to join us, forcing them to follow that fast would be counterproductive. 

That said, as someone in the SOPA, I do the fast whenever health permits, and am looking forward to joining you and 70 million other Orthodox and Assyrians next week in fasting.

As an aside, my favorite liturgical services during the fast are those of the Assyrian church.  They have a Raza (a Qurbono) each night of the fast following evening prayers which are partially sung seated because of the fatigue.
 

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In Church Slavonic Triodion the reason of no fasting is that "номудрствующие содержат пост, глаголемый арцивуриев" so it's "those thinking/piholosophing in other way keep a fast that's name artsiburiyev". In the Polish Triodion it's the same, with this strange word in the end not being translated "arcyburiew".

In my Arabic Triodion it's only written that there is no fasting after the first Sunday of Triodion during the whole week.

So, may Romanian be (un)blessed!
 

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Dominika said:
In Church Slavonic Triodion the reason of no fasting is that "номудрствующие содержат пост, глаголемый арцивуриев" so it's "those thinking/piholosophing in other way keep a fast that's name artsiburiyev". In the Polish Triodion it's the same, with this strange word in the end not being translated "arcyburiew".

In my Arabic Triodion it's only written that there is no fasting after the first Sunday of Triodion during the whole week.

So, may Romanian be (un)blessed!
Any idea what “Artsiburiyev” means?  Also, out of curiosity, to what extent does Poland use vernacular Polish vs. Church Slavonic?
 

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Alpha60 said:
Any idea what “Artsiburiyev” means? 
No idea. Maybe it's a borrowing from Greek?... A name of something?...

Alpha60 said:
Also, out of curiosity, to what extent does Poland use vernacular Polish vs. Church Slavonic?
I think it's been said there and over on the forum. Polish is not used a lot. I mean, there are some parishes with regular services done in all in Polish. As for the rest of parishes, Polish usage means:
1. Sermon
2. Gospel reading (but only during Liturgy), sometime the Epistle reading, and more rarely - the OT readings
3. Some pieces of the ektenies (litanies)
4. Some special prayers like the kneeling ones for the Pentecost, sometimes on the sanctification of the water on Epiphany
5. Some parts of the baptism, chrismation, wedding.
6. Some parts of the prayers for departed
7. Half or 1/3 of akathists
8. All/some prayers before and after the Holy Communion.
9. Sometimes kathismas.
 

Alpha60

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Dominika said:
Alpha60 said:
Any idea what “Artsiburiyev” means? 
No idea. Maybe it's a borrowing from Greek?... A name of something?...

Alpha60 said:
Also, out of curiosity, to what extent does Poland use vernacular Polish vs. Church Slavonic?
I think it's been said there and over on the forum. Polish is not used a lot. I mean, there are some parishes with regular services done in all in Polish. As for the rest of parishes, Polish usage means:
1. Sermon
2. Gospel reading (but only during Liturgy), sometime the Epistle reading, and more rarely - the OT readings
3. Some pieces of the ektenies (litanies)
4. Some special prayers like the kneeling ones for the Pentecost, sometimes on the sanctification of the water on Epiphany
5. Some parts of the baptism, chrismation, wedding.
6. Some parts of the prayers for departed
7. Half or 1/3 of akathists
8. All/some prayers before and after the Holy Communion.
9. Sometimes kathismas.
Ah, sounds just like the use of Arabic in the Coptic Church!  ;)
 

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Alpha60 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Alpha60 said:
I am of the opinion that if there is a new OO church in Britain or America, this fast could be dropped, as it is not especially relevant.  I consider it something instituted by a Syriac Orthodox Maphrian in Iraq; the center of Syriac Christianity in that country is the Nineveh Plains, and the Assyrians immediately picked it up because in that era, the Maphrian and the Catholicos of the East tended to get along quite well.  The other OO churches quickly picked it up because of the prestige of the Patriarch of Antioch and the preponderance of OO saints in the early years who were either Antiochene Greeks or Syriacs (Sts. Severus, Peter Fullo, Jacob bar Addai, Jacob of Sarugh, Philoxenus of Mabbug, and others).  Later on, it looks like the Armenian church recontextualized the fast to focus primarily on the Catechumens and St. Sarkis, while retaining some references to Jonah.

Now, as a Syriac Orthodox Christian, I respect this fast greatly, but I don’t regard it as an essential element of Oriental Orthodoxy.
-1
I don’t follow.  This severe pre-Lenten fast could well be a stumbling block for converts, and the fact the Assyrians have used it despite apparent Nestorian influence after its promulgation, and indeed, are among ite major users, shows that the fast is not immediately relevant to our preservation of the Christology of St. Cyril.  So if St. George’s Mission grows into a new autonomous Orthodox Church of Britain, and something similiar were to happen elsewhere, or if we somehow managed to get some Byzantine Rite parishes of EC or EO provenance to join us, forcing them to follow that fast would be counterproductive. 

That said, as someone in the SOPA, I do the fast whenever health permits, and am looking forward to joining you and 70 million other Orthodox and Assyrians next week in fasting.

As an aside, my favorite liturgical services during the fast are those of the Assyrian church.  They have a Raza (a Qurbono) each night of the fast following evening prayers which are partially sung seated because of the fatigue.
I can’t even...
 

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Eh, it's only three days long and right before the 40-dayer. I think most seekers who would be turned off by fasting would be turned off by the aggregate number of them that's there year-round regardless.

If I were to pick a reason to be a little ??? about it, it would more be that it seems kind of Syrian nationalism-shaped (despite the book of Jonah connection). But it's not a big deal to me either way, really.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
The Fast of the Ninevites has nothing to do with Syrian/Syriac nationalism.  Really, where do people come up with these ideas?
Maybe that was an unfair mental connection for me to make simply because it was instituted first in the Churches of Syria, yeah. My apologies.
 

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Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
The Fast of the Ninevites has nothing to do with Syrian/Syriac nationalism.  Really, where do people come up with these ideas?
Maybe that was an unfair mental connection for me to make simply because it was instituted first in the Churches of Syria, yeah. My apologies.
Our Church connects the origin of this fast to a plague that affected Mesopotamia centuries ago.  The local bishops proclaimed a fast, and in three to five days, the plague ended and people became well again.  In thanksgiving, they maintained the practice every year.  That’s it.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
The Fast of the Ninevites has nothing to do with Syrian/Syriac nationalism.  Really, where do people come up with these ideas?
Maybe that was an unfair mental connection for me to make simply because it was instituted first in the Churches of Syria, yeah. My apologies.
Our Church connects the origin of this fast to a plague that affected Mesopotamia centuries ago.  The local bishops proclaimed a fast, and in three to five days, the plague ended and people became well again.  In thanksgiving, they maintained the practice every year.  That’s it.
Ah, ok. I didn't know that. I assumed that it was merely supposed to be in connection to the repentance of the Ninevites in Jonah. Whoops.
 
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