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Fasting

Marc1152

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I changed what I eat during this last fast and was far more able to keep it.. Keep in mind that fasting is meant to be a spiritual exercise and an aide to prayer and reflection. So before I mention the food end, increased prayer and study and good works is synergistic with fasting... For example if you increase your Church attendance or do more work for the Church during these times it will impact your over all motivation and give you strength to carry through. IMHO

I had been trying for the last couple of years to follow a similar eating pattern during fasts as in normal periods, only without the non-Lentin foods... In my case I tried to keep foods low in carbs and high in Lenin fats ( coconut oil, olive oil when allowed etc.) I avoided starches to the point I could but usually not successfully.

I will repost a lecture by Denise Minger. She argues that there is benefit to both ends of the spectrum, Low fat vegan ( negative end) and high fat,  low to moderate carbs (positive end).

I had occasion to speak with Dan Butner of the Blue Zones project a few years ago.. They study populations with unusually long life spans.. He said they were about to go to a Greek Island where people normally live to very old age. I pointed out to him that the people there are Orthodox and that he should look closely at their pattern of fasting. Reading the Blue Zone web page they did take that into account.

Here is how this works ( and how it can impact your own fasting)..

Modern patterns of eating are way too new for us to be fully adapted to. Modern eating is sometimes called the Standard American Diet or "S.A.D"..

The more natural pattern, the one we evolved to eat over at least the last 100,000 years, was influenced by Ice Age conditions. Vast savannas, hunting mega fauna and gathering edible plants and berries and tubers as a supplement to meat and  fat ( and fish etc.).

But what was the over arching pattern? What tribe of hunter gatherers has good hunting 24/7 and in reverse, which tribe was so impoverished that they never had meat? Answer; neither.

The negative pol is hunting is bad. Food with minimal fat and what we call vegan today by in large. Plants, starches, berries and maybe trash seafood ( no backbone types).

The human body may be adapted to periods of fasting ( Hunting bad part of the natural cycle).. It is well known that with lack of fat in the diet and especially reduced calories the body is sent the message that times are bad and it swings into action. During lean times the body up-regulates several systems to keep you alive and fit until the Buffalo come back... You become healthier.. Go figure.

But this is a temporary effect which is why veganism is a bad idea as your permanent diet. You will become depleted of vital nutrients only found in animal foods and you may eventually induce a wasting effect.

Based on this sort of natural pattern I am now doing a "McDougal" type diet during the fast. Starch is the main dish ( not worrying about carbs during the fast too much) and staying low fat , under 10-15% of calories from fat.

This will do two things. First, I can live with it and not break the fast. Second, it will theoretically induce the up-regulation effect when I signal my inner cave-boy that this is a lean period.

Then after the fast, we feast. This means a diet high in fat and meats and low in carbs..The hunting good cycle.

So specifically, make a starch the center of your meal with vegetables as the sides.. Avoid processed foods as they contain hidden sugars that will spike your appetite. Eat whole foods...

Repair your digestion with Pro Biotics and fermented foods so you can get the nutrients from all these foods and feel good.. Feeling lousy can make you break the fast...We are to endure some hunger during fasts, not feel sick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFfK27B_qZY
 

TheTrisagion

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As with anything, fasting requires establishing a habit. I tend to do better with my fasting rule when I am in a routine.  When I travel for work or go on vacation, it all goes out the window because it is way to difficult to keep it when worried about a million other things that are on my mind.  That is my 2 cents for whatever its worth.
 

DeniseDenise

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When at first you don't succeed...try try again.


Do we stop trying not to sin just because we keep sinning?
 

Mor Ephrem

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primuspilus said:
Fasting is the most difficult part for me to adhere to. It is a constant struggle, and often more than not, I fail horribly.

Any advice?
If you don't mind my asking, what part or parts of fasting make it difficult for you?  

Marc mentioned the importance of prayer, study, and good works in conjunction with fasting, and I would like to reiterate that.  This past Great Lent, in addition to the "food" fasting (which I kept a bit more strictly than usual), I had the opportunity to attend Liturgies three or four times a week as well as contribute my time helping out as needed, I read the services at home when I couldn't go to church, I read Scripture more regularly, I reduced my intake of "entertainment", etc.  It was probably the "best" Lent I've had in a long time.  I felt closer to God than I did before, and that feeling was so strong that I wondered (and every once in a while I still wonder) whether I was actually closer to God or if I simply did so many "God things" that I tricked myself into believing I was closer to him.  I was sorry to see the fast end; I didn't even really enjoy the Paschal meal because it meant the fast was over (anathema, I know).  By God's grace, even though I stopped fasting after Pascha, I kept up with the other disciplines.  But eventually I got lazy and some of those dropped off, and you read the results of this every day.  :)

When it's just a matter of "food" fasting, I find fasting to be a necessary burden at best (sometimes I'm only keeping it because fasting is ecclesial as well as personal), an annoyance many times, and at worst I find it intolerable and am counting the days until it's over.  But when it's part of an overall spiritual program, each element gives strength to the others and derives strength from the others.  On its own, it's just hunger.  Combined with the others, it really does drive out devils and bring one closer to God.      
 

primuspilus

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If you don't mind my asking, what part or parts of fasting make it difficult for you? 
Well, My wife and son are not Orthodox, and though they support my fasting, alot of times, its too expensive to make something separate for them, and its very easy to have excuses.

an annoyance many times, and at worst I find it intolerable and am counting the days until it's over
I find this as well, at times.

Do we stop trying not to sin just because we keep sinning?
Nope. Just looking for advice.

Based on this sort of natural pattern I am now doing a "McDougal" type diet during the fast. Starch is the main dish ( not worrying about carbs during the fast too much) and staying low fat , under 10-15% of calories from fat.
This is your diet during the fast, or all the time?

PP
 

Punch

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primuspilus said:
Fasting is the most difficult part for me to adhere to. It is a constant struggle, and often more than not, I fail horribly.

Any advice?

PP
Yes.  Don't worry about it.  Worry about your prayer life and doing good works for others (which is what you will be judged on anyway, not fasting), and perhaps by doing these things God will give you the strength through His Grace to do other things such as fast.
 

primuspilus

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Punch said:
primuspilus said:
Fasting is the most difficult part for me to adhere to. It is a constant struggle, and often more than not, I fail horribly.

Any advice?

PP
Yes.  Don't worry about it.  Worry about your prayer life and doing good works for others (which is what you will be judged on anyway, not fasting), and perhaps by doing these things God will give you the strength through His Grace to do other things such as fast.
I appreciate it, but I want to do the fast. I just need advice on being successful. I still try to abstain from sin, etc etc...

PP
 

quietmorning

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Punch said:
primuspilus said:
Fasting is the most difficult part for me to adhere to. It is a constant struggle, and often more than not, I fail horribly.

Any advice?

PP
Yes.  Don't worry about it.  Worry about your prayer life and doing good works for others (which is what you will be judged on anyway, not fasting), and perhaps by doing these things God will give you the strength through His Grace to do other things such as fast.
+1  - - something I really needed to hear.   Thanks, Punch
 

quietmorning

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primuspilus said:
Punch said:
primuspilus said:
Fasting is the most difficult part for me to adhere to. It is a constant struggle, and often more than not, I fail horribly.

Any advice?

PP
Yes.  Don't worry about it.  Worry about your prayer life and doing good works for others (which is what you will be judged on anyway, not fasting), and perhaps by doing these things God will give you the strength through His Grace to do other things such as fast.
I appreciate it, but I want to do the fast. I just need advice on being successful. I still try to abstain from sin, etc etc...

PP
PP, when I was just starting in the EO, I wanted to pray a LOT of Jesus Prayers and do the hour and a half morning prayers.  And I COULD do it.  My Priest told me to stop.  To pray maybe a twenty minute prayer rule in the morning. . .and the evening prayers. . .and only pray my prayer rope bracelet which only had **gasp** 33 Jesus Prayers on it. 

I found it extraordinarily difficult to do.  And I was humbled.  Which was the point. 

Now. . . I pray when I can.  I hope to pray more, but my life has changed COMPLETELY since then - because it all comes down to my will or His Will. 

Fasting has been a heartbreaking issue with me.  But still, it comes down to my will or His Will.  And I am disciplined and corrected.  I needed to be disciplined and corrected. 

Thanks be to God.
 

DeniseDenise

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primuspilus said:
If you don't mind my asking, what part or parts of fasting make it difficult for you? 
Well, My wife and son are not Orthodox, and though they support my fasting, alot of times, its too expensive to make something separate for them, and its very easy to have excuses.
I think this changes the situation substantially.


Have you talked to your Priest about this?  Because in all honestly the LAST thing you need/want to do is alienate your wife (either economically or about her cooking), that does nothing to demonstrate the love of Christ to her.



 

primuspilus

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I think this changes the situation substantially.


Have you talked to your Priest about this?  Because in all honestly the LAST thing you need/want to do is alienate your wife (either economically or about her cooking), that does nothing to demonstrate the love of Christ to her.
I have. He simply says, "Do what you can". Which is a good answer, it truly is. However, giving me that kind of wiggle room really gives me room for excuses.....

PP
 

TheTrisagion

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primuspilus said:
If you don't mind my asking, what part or parts of fasting make it difficult for you? 
Well, My wife and son are not Orthodox, and though they support my fasting, alot of times, its too expensive to make something separate for them, and its very easy to have excuses.

an annoyance many times, and at worst I find it intolerable and am counting the days until it's over
I find this as well, at times.

Do we stop trying not to sin just because we keep sinning?
Nope. Just looking for advice.

Based on this sort of natural pattern I am now doing a "McDougal" type diet during the fast. Starch is the main dish ( not worrying about carbs during the fast too much) and staying low fat , under 10-15% of calories from fat.
This is your diet during the fast, or all the time?

PP
My wife and kids are not Orthodox and my wife is against even the concept of fasting (not sure why, but that is a different conversation). My priest advised me not to even discuss my own fasting with her.  Where we are at now is that I have mentioned to her that I want to cut down on meat in my diet and eat more vegetables, which she has been open to because she is really big on eating healthy. The net effect is that I generally just eat less meat throughout the entire week and I try to eat salads at lunch at work on fasting days.  Not sure if that helps at all...
 

primuspilus

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TheTrisagion said:
primuspilus said:
If you don't mind my asking, what part or parts of fasting make it difficult for you? 
Well, My wife and son are not Orthodox, and though they support my fasting, alot of times, its too expensive to make something separate for them, and its very easy to have excuses.

an annoyance many times, and at worst I find it intolerable and am counting the days until it's over
I find this as well, at times.

Do we stop trying not to sin just because we keep sinning?
Nope. Just looking for advice.

Based on this sort of natural pattern I am now doing a "McDougal" type diet during the fast. Starch is the main dish ( not worrying about carbs during the fast too much) and staying low fat , under 10-15% of calories from fat.
This is your diet during the fast, or all the time?

PP
My wife and kids are not Orthodox and my wife is against even the concept of fasting (not sure why, but that is a different conversation). My priest advised me not to even discuss my own fasting with her.  Where we are at now is that I have mentioned to her that I want to cut down on meat in my diet and eat more vegetables, which she has been open to because she is really big on eating healthy. The net effect is that I generally just eat less meat throughout the entire week and I try to eat salads at lunch at work on fasting days.  Not sure if that helps at all...
This helps. Thanks.

My wife believes everything the Church teaches, and she has a very positive attitude about it, but even still, she wont join the Church (I'll not air dirty laundry). So, she doesn't have the seriousness concerning the fast than I do (or rather, that I'd like to have). So there we are :)

PP
 

Marc1152

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It may often come down to motivation, like everything else.. If you feel that you are being helped both spiritually and physically then you have a positive attitude that you are doing something very helpful. Otherwise, we are just following rules that are disconnected to anything meaningful and motivating.

It also helps to know how to avoid hypoglycemia induced hunger, a roller coaster of blood sugar ups and downs. These are hard to resist and you can rationalized most anything if you go too low in my own experience.

There is a difference between natural hunger (empty, need food for energy) and low blood sugar hunger which is pretty intolerable...Then you rationalize...then you feel guilty and blame yourself for lack of strength..rinse, repeat.
 

Mor Ephrem

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primuspilus said:
If you don't mind my asking, what part or parts of fasting make it difficult for you? 
Well, My wife and son are not Orthodox, and though they support my fasting, alot of times, its too expensive to make something separate for them, and its very easy to have excuses.
I think it's OK to adjust the discipline for the sake of legitimate reasons ("mixed" household, financial concerns) even if there are also "easy excuses".  At least it is what I've done in similar situations.  The "easy excuses" make someone like me second guess myself regarding the legitimate reasons, but if they are legitimate, you can't really argue with the results of disregarding those, so experience will teach you why they are legitimate if theory does not.  It's important to be humble about such things.  Insisting on the fast in spite of such circumstances can be due to pride, and if it comes from pride, you will fail. 

Also, while the received tradition re: fasting rules is what it is and we are largely familiar with it and accept it (and/or even love to hate it :p), it wasn't always that way.  Even now, the fasting rules have regional variation, and in the past there was more.  For instance, I was surprised when I read Eastern church fathers who made similar distinctions in fasting and abstinence as those found in the West.  At least one (and I need to search for the source, I didn't write it down regrettably) wrote that the Wednesday/Friday fast consisted of not eating or drinking until a certain hour, but not necessarily abstinence from meat and dairy (which was considered a distinct discipline).  Accordingly, you could break your fast tomorrow with a bratwurst or two, but after a morning and afternoon of no food.  Obviously this is not what we teach or practice now, and I'm not recommending that anyone fast that way, but if we look carefully enough, there are solutions within the tradition that may be considered when we feel the need to adjust for particular circumstances.       
 

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If you dont want to fast, fast like saints do - 1 eat per day and a little.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Indocern said:
If you dont want to fast, fast like saints do - 1 eat per day and a little.
Is that how saints fast, or is that how monastics fast.
This is the way saints fast.
 

TheTrisagion

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You don't get to be a saint if you don't fast in that manner?
 

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TheTrisagion said:
You don't get to be a saint if you don't fast in that manner?
I dont know i am not asked my priest how he fast. He is a saint.

But if you fast like this Angel of God will come to you.
 

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TheTrisagion said:
You don't get to be a saint if you don't fast in that manner?
If you want to be saint better go talk with my priest - Otets Boris.
 

Marc1152

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Keep in mind that the vegetables and bread the Fathers ate were not like the poor quality factory food we often eat. This also includes monastics  like on Athos.

Bread is adulterated today with extra gluten to make it easier to make baked goods ( stickier). So when you read that bread is okay it may not be wise to think of bread like Wonder Bread or similar squishy factory bread. It is also full of sugar which will make you crazy when your blood sugar drops.

If you can get bread made with old style grain that would be similar to what is really being allowed, though that is hard to find. A good compromise is Sour Dough bread. The dough is fermented and breaks down the grain so it can be digested better.

Vegetables can be from depleted soil and sprayed and sprayed and sprayed with chemicals.  The vegetables we get like this are not the same value as what the Fathers ate and not as sustaining.

It is worth going to a farmers market or specialty store and get organic vegetables. A study that just came out debunked the idea that organic and non-organic vegetables have the same nutritional values. It turns out organic is better for you.

And finally, eating some fermented foods both during the fast and normally will greatly increase your gut health and digestion. Sauerkraut that is fermented ( not just pickled), is easiest to find and use. Before refrigeration, people would ferment food to keep it a long time. Fermentation increases enzyme action and provides natural pro-biotics that will keep you strong. Eating the right things is good. Digesting them , priceless.

The idea is not to avoid hunger but it should be natural hunger, not crazy hypoglycemic hunger or general weakness from mal nutrition.
 

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Marc1152 said:
Keep in mind that the vegetables and bread the Fathers ate were not like the poor quality factory food we often eat. This also includes monastics  like on Athos.

Bread is adulterated today with extra gluten to make it easier to make baked goods ( stickier). So when you read that bread is okay it may not be wise to think of bread like Wonder Bread or similar squishy factory bread. It is also full of sugar which will make you crazy when your blood sugar drops.

If you can get bread made with old style grain that would be similar to what is really being allowed, though that is hard to find. A good compromise is Sour Dough bread. The dough is fermented and breaks down the grain so it can be digested better.

Vegetables can be from depleted soil and sprayed and sprayed and sprayed with chemicals.   The vegetables we get like this are not the same value as what the Fathers ate and not as sustaining.

It is worth going to a farmers market or specialty store and get organic vegetables. A study that just came out debunked the idea that organic and non-organic vegetables have the same nutritional values. It turns out organic is better for you.

And finally, eating some fermented foods both during the fast and normally will greatly increase your gut health and digestion. Sauerkraut that is fermented ( not just pickled), is easiest to find and use. Before refrigeration, people would ferment food to keep it a long time. Fermentation increases enzyme action and provides natural pro-biotics that will keep you strong. Eating the right things is good. Digesting them , priceless.

The idea is not to avoid hunger but it should be natural hunger, not crazy hypoglycemic hunger or general weakness from mal nutrition.
The Fathers did not have refrigerators, freezers, supermarkets, etc., so we have a lot better access to fasting foods than did they.  Bread machines make it very easy to make fresh bread with quality ingredients and without unnecessary additives.  Balsamic and other vinegars are fermented and are a nice addition to salads on "no oil" days. 

I would be interested in any studies, links, etc. regarding the nutritional content of organic vs. non-organic foods.
 

TheTrisagion

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jah777 said:
Marc1152 said:
Keep in mind that the vegetables and bread the Fathers ate were not like the poor quality factory food we often eat. This also includes monastics  like on Athos.

Bread is adulterated today with extra gluten to make it easier to make baked goods ( stickier). So when you read that bread is okay it may not be wise to think of bread like Wonder Bread or similar squishy factory bread. It is also full of sugar which will make you crazy when your blood sugar drops.

If you can get bread made with old style grain that would be similar to what is really being allowed, though that is hard to find. A good compromise is Sour Dough bread. The dough is fermented and breaks down the grain so it can be digested better.

Vegetables can be from depleted soil and sprayed and sprayed and sprayed with chemicals.   The vegetables we get like this are not the same value as what the Fathers ate and not as sustaining.

It is worth going to a farmers market or specialty store and get organic vegetables. A study that just came out debunked the idea that organic and non-organic vegetables have the same nutritional values. It turns out organic is better for you.

And finally, eating some fermented foods both during the fast and normally will greatly increase your gut health and digestion. Sauerkraut that is fermented ( not just pickled), is easiest to find and use. Before refrigeration, people would ferment food to keep it a long time. Fermentation increases enzyme action and provides natural pro-biotics that will keep you strong. Eating the right things is good. Digesting them , priceless.

The idea is not to avoid hunger but it should be natural hunger, not crazy hypoglycemic hunger or general weakness from mal nutrition.
The Fathers did not have refrigerators, freezers, supermarkets, etc., so we have a lot better access to fasting foods than did they.  Bread machines make it very easy to make fresh bread with quality ingredients and without unnecessary additives.  Balsamic and other vinegars are fermented and are a nice addition to salads on "no oil" days. 

I would be interested in any studies, links, etc. regarding the nutritional content of organic vs. non-organic foods.
Oh dear...

*puts suit of armor on*

Brace yourself, this will get heated.  :p
 

DeniseDenise

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TheTrisagion said:
jah777 said:
Marc1152 said:
Keep in mind that the vegetables and bread the Fathers ate were not like the poor quality factory food we often eat. This also includes monastics  like on Athos.

Bread is adulterated today with extra gluten to make it easier to make baked goods ( stickier). So when you read that bread is okay it may not be wise to think of bread like Wonder Bread or similar squishy factory bread. It is also full of sugar which will make you crazy when your blood sugar drops.

If you can get bread made with old style grain that would be similar to what is really being allowed, though that is hard to find. A good compromise is Sour Dough bread. The dough is fermented and breaks down the grain so it can be digested better.

Vegetables can be from depleted soil and sprayed and sprayed and sprayed with chemicals.   The vegetables we get like this are not the same value as what the Fathers ate and not as sustaining.

It is worth going to a farmers market or specialty store and get organic vegetables. A study that just came out debunked the idea that organic and non-organic vegetables have the same nutritional values. It turns out organic is better for you.

And finally, eating some fermented foods both during the fast and normally will greatly increase your gut health and digestion. Sauerkraut that is fermented ( not just pickled), is easiest to find and use. Before refrigeration, people would ferment food to keep it a long time. Fermentation increases enzyme action and provides natural pro-biotics that will keep you strong. Eating the right things is good. Digesting them , priceless.

The idea is not to avoid hunger but it should be natural hunger, not crazy hypoglycemic hunger or general weakness from mal nutrition.
The Fathers did not have refrigerators, freezers, supermarkets, etc., so we have a lot better access to fasting foods than did they.  Bread machines make it very easy to make fresh bread with quality ingredients and without unnecessary additives.  Balsamic and other vinegars are fermented and are a nice addition to salads on "no oil" days. 

I would be interested in any studies, links, etc. regarding the nutritional content of organic vs. non-organic foods.
Oh dear...

*puts suit of armor on*

Brace yourself, this will get heated.  :p
Is your armor made of non toxic non shortage conflict free metal?
 

TheTrisagion

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Darn and I was so close! I forgot about conflict free!  Off to go buy another suit of armor.

*sigh*  :(
 

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Non-organic = Monsanto

Organic = Someone took a dump on it.

Not sure which I prefer.
 

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primuspilus said:
Fasting is the most difficult part for me to adhere to. It is a constant struggle, and often more than not, I fail horribly.

Any advice?

PP
I think you already mentioned that your wife and son aren't Orthodox, which is a particularly significant challenge.  If your spouse is not supportive of you keeping the fasts, and if it seems that even bringing up the issue could "turn her away" or otherwise be unhelpful, you may just have to look for ways to keep the fast at those times when you are not eating with your family.  Fast at every opportunity when the decision of what to eat is yours.  If you can't avoid non-fasting foods altogether with family, try to do your best.  For instance, it is better to have some oil than to have meat and dairy, better to have some dairy than to eat meat, better to avoid wine and alcohol when you can, etc.  If you know dinner at home will unavoidably contain meat, making an extra effort to fast from all food during the day, if that is within your strength, can help you to still benefit a great deal from the physical side of fasting, assuming you are also praying and struggling against the passions.  

I think many Orthodox miss out on the spiritual benefits of fasting by simply changing their diet without limiting food intake nor actually experiencing much physical hunger.  It could be that you could benefit more on fast days from one light meal a day which contains meat (when eating meat is unavoidable), than you would if you ate three full meals with just bread and vegetables. Of course, these things should be discussed with one's spiritual father.

It could also be helpful to remind yourself that fasting can give more strength to your prayers, and that you are fasting not only for yourself but for the sake of your family.   Pray for them while you fast, that they may be benefitted and that you many have additional spiritual incentive.  Even if your family is not Orthodox, when you fast for the sake of prayer and for your family, this will attract God's blessing on your family.    
 

Marc1152

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jah777 said:
Marc1152 said:
Keep in mind that the vegetables and bread the Fathers ate were not like the poor quality factory food we often eat. This also includes monastics  like on Athos.

Bread is adulterated today with extra gluten to make it easier to make baked goods ( stickier). So when you read that bread is okay it may not be wise to think of bread like Wonder Bread or similar squishy factory bread. It is also full of sugar which will make you crazy when your blood sugar drops.

If you can get bread made with old style grain that would be similar to what is really being allowed, though that is hard to find. A good compromise is Sour Dough bread. The dough is fermented and breaks down the grain so it can be digested better.

Vegetables can be from depleted soil and sprayed and sprayed and sprayed with chemicals.   The vegetables we get like this are not the same value as what the Fathers ate and not as sustaining.

It is worth going to a farmers market or specialty store and get organic vegetables. A study that just came out debunked the idea that organic and non-organic vegetables have the same nutritional values. It turns out organic is better for you.

And finally, eating some fermented foods both during the fast and normally will greatly increase your gut health and digestion. Sauerkraut that is fermented ( not just pickled), is easiest to find and use. Before refrigeration, people would ferment food to keep it a long time. Fermentation increases enzyme action and provides natural pro-biotics that will keep you strong. Eating the right things is good. Digesting them , priceless.

The idea is not to avoid hunger but it should be natural hunger, not crazy hypoglycemic hunger or general weakness from mal nutrition.
The Fathers did not have refrigerators, freezers, supermarkets, etc., so we have a lot better access to fasting foods than did they.  Bread machines make it very easy to make fresh bread with quality ingredients and without unnecessary additives.  Balsamic and other vinegars are fermented and are a nice addition to salads on "no oil" days. 

I would be interested in any studies, links, etc. regarding the nutritional content of organic vs. non-organic foods.
That is the rub, abundant, easy access, convenient  bad food. I will look for the Organic study.. it just came out
 

Marc1152

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Here it is:

Organic foods are more nutritious, according to review of 343 studies

http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-organic-foods-20140715-story.html
 

jah777

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Marc1152 said:
A study that just came out debunked the idea that organic and non-organic vegetables have the same nutritional values. It turns out organic is better for you.
I found this:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/07/23/new-study-finds-organic-foods-are-healthier-than-conventionally-grown-foods/

This article says that organic foods are higher in antioxidants than non-organic, and that non-organic foods often contain pesticides, cadmium, etc.  Aside from antioxidants, I have not seen the claim that organic vegetables have greater nutritional value than non-organic.  The "less healthy" claim for non-organic seems mostly based on whatever risks you associate with exposure to very small concentrations of pesticides, cadmium, etc. in non-organic foods.

EDIT:  this appears to be the same study you linked right above.
 

Marc1152

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jah777 said:
Marc1152 said:
A study that just came out debunked the idea that organic and non-organic vegetables have the same nutritional values. It turns out organic is better for you.
I found this:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/07/23/new-study-finds-organic-foods-are-healthier-than-conventionally-grown-foods/

This article says that organic foods are higher in antioxidants than non-organic, and that non-organic foods often contain pesticides, cadmium, etc.  Aside from antioxidants, I have not seen the claim that organic vegetables have greater nutritional value than non-organic.  The "less healthy" claim for non-organic seems mostly based on whatever risks you associate with exposure to very small concentrations of pesticides, cadmium, etc. in non-organic foods.

EDIT:  this appears to be the same study you linked right above.
Organic food has a greater amount of anti-oxidants and enzymes. It also doesnt have artificial chemical toxins like pestacides
 
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Part of the point, I think is to not think about food much at all.   

Perhaps cut out snacking and leave the rest to God.  Don't think about what you will eat until the meal time comes.    If you are able,  than keep the Fast that you and your Priest have discussed.    If you are cornered by circumstance to break the Fast, than don't view it as a failure and beat yourself up over it.

My priest told me (this was during the Lenten Fast) that when it happens that I am compelled to break the Fast due to no desire on my part,  I should be grateful to God for the "break" he has given me and not be an ingrate or abuse this gift through gluttony.  It is like running a marathon, and you are tired and on the verge of falling....it is a helping hand to gird you on.  I can think of an instance where I was wanting to give it up and that evening in the thick of Non-Orthodox company "cheat" food was served.    I accepted it humbly and didn't take a mile when given an inch.

God knows what we can and can't handle.  Our priest does too.


Trust. 

 

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then i think you should try marc1152's new diet guide.
i am happy to see a more balanced recommendation from him, this makes more sense than always having a lot of protein and animal fat.

i also agree that lifelong vegan food is bad for you - i was reading up on vitamin b12, and you really can't get a reliable, sustainable, natural vegan source of b12.

(hey, we agree on diet!)
:eek:

i have spent 4 days in usa (sorry to rush back home, was busy with work, nothing personal)
and i was amazed by the quantity or really awful food available in really huge portions.
europeans had told me about it, but it had to be seen to be believed.
it was either really fatty stuff or awful zero percent fat low sugar ice cream with a dozen artificial ingredients
(tasted like i had licked out the test tube at the end of chemistry class).
i feel sorry for all you americans trying to eat healthily and exercise and finding everything against you.
i tried really hard to go out for a walk, but was basically prohibited by my hosts
(ok so it was zero degrees centigrade, but i had warm clothes).

personally i enjoy vegan food, so if you'll remember me in your prayers, primuspilus, i'll remember you in my fasting!
 

Punch

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primuspilus said:
I actually dont snack at all, and hate sweet things.

Im a carnivore somethin fierce. I'd put a Kodiak Bear to shame.....and I like my wine.

PP
Same here.  That is why I have only one stomach and only 30 feet of intestine.
 

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Misplaced Book said:
Part of the point, I think is to not think about food much at all.   

Perhaps cut out snacking and leave the rest to God.   Don't think about what you will eat until the meal time comes.  
Good advice. While YMMV, this works for me, rather than obsessively reading lists of ingredients.
 

primuspilus

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art of the point, I think is to not think about food much at all.   

Perhaps cut out snacking and leave the rest to God.  Don't think about what you will eat until the meal time comes. 
Good advice.

Same here.  That is why I have only one stomach and only 30 feet of intestine.
Wow. Had no idea.

PP
 
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