Female Altar Servers??

[Saxon]

I went to Liturgy at St. Kosmas Aitolos Monastery a couple of months ago and there were nuns going in and out of the altar.  I was taken aback, particularly given the nature of the monastic network to which it belongs.

 

[Aram]

I went to Liturgy at St. Kosmas Aitolos Monastery a couple of months ago and there were nuns going in and out of the altar.  I was taken aback, particularly given the nature of the monastic network to which it belongs.

How old were they?

 

[hecma925]

It's a women's monastery.  There are probably several nuns with the blessing to go in the altar area.

 

[Bob2]

It's a women's monastery.  There are probably several nuns with the blessing to go in the altar area.

Yes, but you'll notice they don't vest, they just assist with the censer, hot water etc. to assist the clergy, and maybe a single nun unvested would bring out the Primikiri for entrances.

 

[Dominika]

I went to Liturgy at St. Kosmas Aitolos Monastery a couple of months ago and there were nuns going in and out of the altar.  I was taken aback, particularly given the nature of the monastic network to which it belongs.

I've seen it Romania in a female monastery too.

 

[Iconodule]

It’s not unusual. Unless there’s a full time deacon on hand it’s a normal thing to happen.

 

[hecma925]

It's a women's monastery.  There are probably several nuns with the blessing to go in the altar area.

Yes, but you'll notice they don't vest, they just assist with the censer, hot water etc. to assist the clergy, and maybe a single nun unvested would bring out the Primikiri for entrances.

I'm sure; to be fair, Saxon didn't write either way.

 

[Saxon]

Oh no, not vested. I was just surprised as I spent my first two Orthodox years in a ROCOR parish where the priest literally said that barring women and the unbaptized from stepping into the altar was a matter of life and death.

 

[Iconodule]

Supposedly the Church of Greece restored deaconesses in the women's monasteries since 2004, though I haven't heard of any specific cases. Whether these deaconesses would actually be vested I don't know.

 

[Orest]

Oh no, not vested. I was just surprised as I spent my first two Orthodox years in a ROCOR parish where the priest literally said that barring women and the unbaptized from stepping into the altar was a matter of life and death.

Obviously your former priest did not know much about church history.

 

[Agabus]

Oh no, not vested. I was just surprised as I spent my first two Orthodox years in a ROCOR parish where the priest literally said that barring women and the unbaptized from stepping into the altar was a matter of life and death.

Obviously your former priest did not know much about church history.

The stories about that priest, if true (and I have no reason to doubt Saxon), indicate he did not know much about Christ.

 

[isxodnik]

I have not read all 11 pages, sorry if I repeat what said before me.

In the female monastery let to serve at the altar of elderly virgins. There is a similar (outside monastery it is more difficult to find an elderly virgin) practice at parishes because of the lack of men.

It happens that women are attracted to the service of manhood(?) people-pleasing(?). For example, at the Moscow school for children of wealthy parents "pushed aside" Sexton, and invite mommy`s to take a walk on the Solea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfhJGug5dRY

 

[Dominika]

I have not read all 11 pages, sorry if I repeat what said before me.

In the female monastery let to serve at the altar of elderly virgins. There is a similar (outside monastery it is more difficult to find an elderly virgin) practice at parishes because of the lack of men.

So it's better to read 11 pages and see various traditions.

It happens that women are attracted to the service of manhood(?) people-pleasing(?). For example, at the Moscow school for children of wealthy parents "pushed aside" Sexton, and invite mommy`s to take a walk on the Solea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfhJGug5dRY

I suppose the channel took the video from another one (Macedonian Genuine Orthodox Church?); anyway it's clearly written it's Sunday of the Myrrhbearers. I've heard about Ukrainian parishes that on this day women do a lot of liturgical stuff, like chanting the Epistle, keeping ilition (the cloth), so procession with candles would be one of them.
Edit: but generaly during Paschal time at my POC parish children, including girls, hold in processions small banners with saints and crosses. I've seen also an Old Believer procession with women holding lanterns.

 

[Peacemaker]

There is no place for female deacons or altar servers anymore because we aren't baptized naked anymore. Nun's are allowed in convents because other than the priest there generally aren't any other men around. The desire to want to bring this back comes from pride and the thought that is telling the person, "Why can't I serve, I want to serve, the Church used to allow this, why no longer, we need to bring it back because I want this" and is more less saying "Me me me." St Theophan the Recluse in Unseen Warfare's first chapter mentions not to trust your thoughts. This is what the enemy does, puts a burning passion in us and dresses it as being a good thing when it really isn't.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

There is no place for female deacons or altar servers anymore because we aren't baptized naked anymore.

But we should be.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

The desire to want to bring this back comes from pride...

We’re aware of your expertise in this field, but there are good reasons for bringing it back (and it has existed here and there, albeit in a minor way, throughout the history of the Church, so it’s not really a matter of bringing it back).  But those reasons have a lot to do with ministry to women, and as an aspiring monk, you should flee even the remembrance of your own mother, let alone other women.

 

[Peacemaker]

The desire to want to bring this back comes from pride...

We’re aware of your expertise in this field, but there are good reasons for bringing it back (and it has existed here and there, albeit in a minor way, throughout the history of the Church, so it’s not really a matter of bringing it back).  But those reasons have a lot to do with ministry to women, and as an aspiring monk, you should flee even the remembrance of your own mother, let alone other women.

I am going to ignore your ignorant personal attacks on me, God help. However I am curious what ministries exist in which you think a woman should be in place of a priest?

 

[Peacemaker]

There is no place for female deacons or altar servers anymore because we aren't baptized naked anymore.

But we should be.

What are your thoughts on Bishops not being allowed to marry anymore?

 

[biro]

Sidebar question: why don't we baptize adults naked anymore, since the church is not supposed to obey social standards?

 

[Peacemaker]

Sidebar question: why don't we baptize adults naked anymore, since the church is not supposed to obey social standards?

Because it wasn't just being naked, it was being naked in front of the entire parish. We are weaker as a society now and it can be a cause for temptation and scandal.

 

[hecma925]

"THE CHURCH THAT BAPTIZES IN THE BUFF"

Great marketing; no longer the "best kept secret".

 

[biro]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[theistgal]

"THE CHURCH THAT BAPTIZES IN THE BUFF"

Great marketing; no longer the "best kept secret".

LOL...I'm gonna suggest that next time someone in my parish complains we're not getting enough visitors!  8)

 

[Mor Ephrem]

The desire to want to bring this back comes from pride...

We’re aware of your expertise in this field, but there are good reasons for bringing it back (and it has existed here and there, albeit in a minor way, throughout the history of the Church, so it’s not really a matter of bringing it back).  But those reasons have a lot to do with ministry to women, and as an aspiring monk, you should flee even the remembrance of your own mother, let alone other women.

I am going to ignore your ignorant personal attacks on me, God help. However I am curious what ministries exist in which you think a woman should be in place of a priest?

Who said anything about “in place of a priest”?  Not I.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

There is no place for female deacons or altar servers anymore because we aren't baptized naked anymore.

But we should be.

What are your thoughts on Bishops not being allowed to marry anymore?

Bishops should not be allowed to marry.  Married men, on the other hand, could be ordained to the episcopacy, as they are to the diaconate and the priesthood, and that may not be a bad thing.  Considering some of the bishops we have today, it may even be preferable.

 

[hecma925]

"THE CHURCH THAT BAPTIZES IN THE BUFF"

Great marketing; no longer the "best kept secret".

LOL...I'm gonna suggest that next time someone in my parish complains we're not getting enough visitors!  8)

I bet the conversation with my dad all those years ago would have been different.  Instead of answering my question of "What's this Orthodox Church?" with, "They're the same as Catholics," he would have said, "They baptize people nekkid; it ain't right."

I would have darkened my parish's door wayyyyyy sooner.

 

[Orest]

We’re aware of your expertise in this field, but there are good reasons for bringing it back (and it has existed here and there, albeit in a minor way, throughout the history of the Church, so it’s not really a matter of bringing it back).  But those reasons have a lot to do with ministry to women, and as an aspiring monk, you should flee even the remembrance of your own mother, let alone other women.
[/quote]

However I am curious what ministries exist in which you think a woman should be in place of a priest?
[/quote]

No one in all the pages said anything about a deaconess replacing a priest except you.  Our church is seriously lacking in pastoral ministry and a deaconess could help in the areas of counselling, teaching.  Go and read all the proceedings of all the pan-Orthodox conferences on women in the Orthodox Church.

 

[isxodnik]

God forbid from women-catechist!

 

[biro]

Why?

 

[isxodnik]

In addition to the 1Corinth. 14:34? Well,
emotionalism
the higher incidence of vainglory and pride, the hierarchical race. And with your nose up, you can't teach Christianity.
less flexibility, rigor. As Anton Pavlovich Chekhov said, a woman is like a bag: what you put in it, then carries. Cramming/dweeb/bookworm.
focus on the little things, elevating them to the rank of law. A man, coming to Church, thinks about God, a woman - how to stand up, how to give a candle, how it looks and what others will think about it.

In General, a woman is a worse teacher than a man. Remember, at what age you already knew how to miss the words of a girlfriend past the ears ))

 

[HaydenTE]

I wasn’t aware I had wandered into 4chan.

 

[biro]

I am a woman, isxodnik.

How horrible your views are.

What are you, 12?

 

[biro]

St. Paul said a woman should not have the teaching authority over men.

He did not say women could not teach women.

 

[isxodnik]

How horrible your views are.

What are you, 12?

... and still women always pass on personality ))

 

[Dominika]

In addition to the 1Corinth. 14:34? Well,
emotionalism
the higher incidence of vainglory and pride, the hierarchical race. And with your nose up, you can't teach Christianity.
less flexibility, rigor. As Anton Pavlovich Chekhov said, a woman is like a bag: what you put in it, then carries. Cramming/dweeb/bookworm.
focus on the little things, elevating them to the rank of law. A man, coming to Church, thinks about God, a woman - how to stand up, how to give a candle, how it looks and what others will think about it.

In General, a woman is a worse teacher than a man. Remember, at what age you already knew how to miss the words of a girlfriend past the ears ))

Poor female teachers of the Orthodox religion at public and Sunday schools... Poor their pupils...
No doubt!

All the mothers and sister of saints, that often taught them what it means to belong to Christ and live Christian life...
Anathema!

 

[Arachne]

In addition to the 1Corinth. 14:34? Well,
emotionalism
the higher incidence of vainglory and pride, the hierarchical race. And with your nose up, you can't teach Christianity.
less flexibility, rigor. As Anton Pavlovich Chekhov said, a woman is like a bag: what you put in it, then carries. Cramming/dweeb/bookworm.
focus on the little things, elevating them to the rank of law. A man, coming to Church, thinks about God, a woman - how to stand up, how to give a candle, how it looks and what others will think about it.

In General, a woman is a worse teacher than a man. Remember, at what age you already knew how to miss the words of a girlfriend past the ears ))

I will file this under "LOL Russians."

 

[isxodnik]

On Russian network runs a joke:

You ask a question on the American forum-you answer.
You ask a question at the Israeli forum-you are asked a question.
You ask a question on the Russian forum-you explain what you [redacted ~Arachne]

You guys are not from Russia? ))

I was asked to explain why I said as I said - I explained based on my experience
- the passage of the catechism
- communication with women
- communication with Church women
Is there a problem? Well, let's sit in silence, each in his corner, or just to say "yes, yes, yes"...

10% for profanity on a moderated forum. Please reacquaint yourself with the forum rules.

If you wish to appeal the ruling, you can do so by PM.

~Arachne, Section Moderator

 

[biro]

How horrible your views are.

What are you, 12?

... and still women always pass on personality ))

Non sequitur.

What are you talking about?

How old are you?

 

[biro]

On Russian network runs a joke:

You ask a question on the American forum-you answer.
You ask a question at the Israeli forum-you are asked a question.
You ask a question on the Russian forum-you explain what you [redacted ~Arachne]

You guys are not from Russia? ))

I was asked to explain why I said as I said - I explained based on my experience
- the passage of the catechism
- communication with women
- communication with Church women
Is there a problem? Well, let's sit in silence, each in his corner, or just to say "yes, yes, yes"...

Nothing you say makes sense. I'm not talking about the language barrier.

 

[isxodnik]

Die of curiosity )
-----------
Yes, one form of psychological defense is denial.

This is a deep offtopic, let's tie.