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Female Altar Servers??

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Dominika

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Aleppo, Orthodox cathedral of st. Elias, feast of the local Orthodox scouts




 

IreneOlinyk

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Thank you so much Dominika.  Pictures like this really freak out all those American converts who say this all started in the USA.  Great to see this in a traditional Orthodox Church outside of the USA.
 

biro

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isxodnik said:
Die of curiosity )
-----------
Yes, one form of psychological defense is denial.

This is a deep offtopic, let's tie.
I'm alive.
 

theistgal

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Devil's advocate here.  8)  When Jesus said, "Let the little children come unto Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven," He didn't add, " except the girls, yuk! " did He? At least, not in the translation I'm referring to.
 

biro

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True.

St. Paul said "women should be silent in the churches." But altar servers generally don't talk anyway, at least not the ones I've met. Not even the men.

As long as they don't make women priests or bishops, I'm fine with it.
 

theistgal

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biro said:
True.

St. Paul said "women should be silent in the churches." But altar servers generally don't talk anyway, at least not the ones I've met. Not even the men.

As long as they don't make women priests or bishops, I'm fine with it.
Funny thing is, I met a female priest, many years ago (in the last century, to be precise!). Episcopalian, of course. At the time, I was a full-fledged, card-carrying atheist. I didn't reconvert till many years later.

When I read this thread, I looked her up online - and she's just recently celebrated her 35th year of service. So all those years, while I was busy mocking Christ and His Church, she was working for Him, and her parishioners. (She even started a soup kitchen which is still going!)

So while I get that our Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) are doctrinally opposed to ordaining women, I'll never condemn those in other religious groups who disagree.
 

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Add to that all those ordained deaconesses in the Armenian Orthodox Church up to the present day.
 

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theistgal said:
So while I get that our Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) are doctrinally opposed to ordaining women, I'll never condemn those in other religious groups who disagree.
Between you and me, if the Rev. Geraldine Granger (the vicar of Dibley) were a real person, I'd be in regular attendance. :D
 

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I have no censorship of words.
So far, I can only say that we have been taught that even deacons should not sit in the altar, and priests should do it less often. And to persons not in a sacred dignity-not to touch a Throne. These photos give the impression of the triumph of wickedness/iniquity.
 

biro

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Arachne said:
theistgal said:
So while I get that our Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) are doctrinally opposed to ordaining women, I'll never condemn those in other religious groups who disagree.
Between you and me, if the Rev. Geraldine Granger (the vicar of Dibley) were a real person, I'd be in regular attendance. :D
I love that show. :)
 

theistgal

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biro said:
Arachne said:
theistgal said:
So while I get that our Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) are doctrinally opposed to ordaining women, I'll never condemn those in other religious groups who disagree.
Between you and me, if the Rev. Geraldine Granger (the vicar of Dibley) were a real person, I'd be in regular attendance. :D
I love that show. :)
Me too!!

(and +eternal memory+ to Emma Chambers ( "Alice") )
 

isxodnik

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I have finished speaking in the *** language , let's talk in the language of facts.
Dominika said:
Aleppo, Orthodox cathedral of St. Elias, feast of the local Orthodox scouts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Elias_Cathedral
Saint Elijah Cathedral (Arabic: 日اتدرائية الحدّيسس الياس), is an Eastern Catholic (Maronite) church in Aleppo
https://www.pravmir.ru/o-maronitskoy-tserkvi/
Link in the history of the Church from a period of struggle and themonothelite with the Monophysite heresy, the Maronite Church is now almost is one of the Catholic communities in the Middle East. Having preserved the basics of the Eastern rite and formal Patriarchal administration, it is under the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church, entering the family of Eastern Catholic Churches and fully sharing the Catholic faith.
Orest said:
Add to that all those ordained deaconesses in the Armenian Orthodox Church up to the present day.
There is no communication between the Orthodox Church and the Armenian Church. As far as I know, the Armenian priests at the ordination of the curse of Christianity.

theistgal said:
Funny thing is, I met a female priest, many years ago (in the last century, to be precise!). Episcopalian, of course...

When I read this thread, I looked her up online - and she's just recently celebrated her 35th year of service. So all those years, while I was busy moking Christ and His Church, she was working for Him, and her parishers.
... and Episcopalian. If we believe - and we believe - in the one Holy <...> The Church, where did that "priestes" take people?  That is, at the Orthodox forum heretical churches are given to us as an example. To make them heretics, too?

theistgal said:
When Jesus said," Let the little children come unto Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven, "He didn't add," except the girls, yuk! "did He?
When you go to the temple, do you pray at the altar? No? So you're not with Christ?

biro said:
St. Paul said " women should be silent in the churches."But altar servers generally don't talk anyway, at least not the ones I've met. Not even the men.
And again deliberate/ostentatious primitivism. No one should talk in Church. The Apostle Paul talked about learning the faith. You really don't see the difference?

************
all questions is rhetorical , I understand that the woman, fly offn the handle, can not be persuade/agitate by reasonable arguments.
 

theistgal

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isxodnik said:
theistgal said:
Funny thing is, I met a female priest, many years ago (in the last century, to be precise!). Episcopalian, of course...

When I read this thread, I looked her up online - and she's just recently celebrated her 35th year of service. So all those years, while I was busy mocking Christ and His Church, she was working for Him, and her parishioners.
... and Episcopalian. If we believe - and we believe - in the one Holy <...> The Church, where did that "priestes" take people?  That is, at the Orthodox forum heretical churches are given to us as an example. To make them heretics, too?
Hey, guess what? I'm not Orthodox, so I'm already heretical in your eyes anyway. So nerts to that argument.

isxodnik said:
theistgal said:
When Jesus said," Let the little children come unto Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven, "He didn't add," except the girls, yuk! "did He?
When you go to the temple, do you pray at the altar? No? So you're not with Christ?
Well, first of all, I don't go to temple. I go to church. So nerts to that one.

And second, yes, of course I pray at the altar. Every Christian prays at the altar, through the persona of the priest. Nerts to that one as well.

Finally, I'm doing my best to be with Christ, even though some of His followers keep trying to chase me away. Nerts to that.  8)
 

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the temple = the Church

"at the altar" must be "in the altar." translation error

You're not Orthodox, but the forum - Yes ) well, I hope.

**********
And instead "...Armenian priests at the ordination of the curse of Christianity." must be "...Armenian priests at the ordination of the curse of the Orthodox."
 

theistgal

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isxodnik said:
the temple = the Church

"at the altar" must be "in the altar." translation error

You're not Orthodox, but the forum - Yes ) well, I hope.

**********
And instead "...Armenian priests at the ordination of the curse of Christianity." must be "...Armenian priests at the ordination of the curse of the Orthodox."
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

(Perhaps I should ask my new pet squid, Bruce.)
 

isxodnik

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It's called "слив" ))
 

Dominika

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isxodnik said:
I have finished speaking in the *** language , let's talk in the language of facts.
Dominika said:
Aleppo, Orthodox cathedral of St. Elias, feast of the local Orthodox scouts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Elias_Cathedral
Saint Elijah Cathedral (Arabic: 日اتدرائية الحدّيسس الياس), is an Eastern Catholic (Maronite) church in Aleppo
In Aleppo there are at least two cathedrals named after st. Elias: one is Eastern Orthodox (and from this one I posted photos) and the second one is, indeed, Maronite one.
The cathedral from which I posted pictures is the seat of the abducted metropolitan Paul (Yazigi), you can see their Facebook page (the website has been hacked by ISIS):  https://www.facebook.com/Greek-Orthodox-Archdiocese-of-Aleppo-Alexandretta-Dependencies-195276964666652/

And it's visible in the photos that it's not Maronite rite.

isxodnik said:
https://www.pravmir.ru/o-maronitskoy-tserkvi/
Link in the history of the Church from a period of struggle and themonothelite with the Monophysite heresy, the Maronite Church is now almost is one of the Catholic communities in the Middle East. Having preserved the basics of the Eastern rite and formal Patriarchal administration, it is under the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church, entering the family of Eastern Catholic Churches and fully sharing the Catholic faith.
I'm currently studying in the (Eastern Orthodox) Antiochian Patriarchate. I know what is a Maronite Church. And its Eastern rite it's not a Byzantine one.

isxodnik said:
Orest said:
Add to that all those ordained deaconesses in the Armenian Orthodox Church up to the present day.
There is no communication between the Orthodox Church and the Armenian Church. As far as I know, the Armenian priests at the ordination of the curse of Christianity.
There is no communication, really? What about student exchanges between Armenian, Serbian and Russian seminaries?
 

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Dominika said:
The cathedral from which I posted pictures is the seat of the abducted metropolitan Paul (Yazigi), you can see their Facebook page (the website has been hacked by ISIS):  https://www.facebook.com/Greek-Orthodox-Archdiocese-of-Aleppo-Alexandretta-Dependencies-195276964666652/

There is no communication, really? What about student exchanges between Armenian, Serbian and Russian seminaries?
When hear "Armenian Church", comes to mind: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Армянская_апостольская_церковь , for whom what I have said before is true.

Actually Orthodoxy in Armenia is represented by The Russian and Georgian Churches. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Православие_в_Армении

Between seminaries of what Churches in Armenia is an exchange student?

It is a pity that this Cathedral in Aleppo is Orthodox. More truly/precisely, it is a pity that in the Orthodox Cathedral such disgrace is happening.

Perhaps you have words in defense of the laity standing close to the Throne and sitting in the altar, as seen in the photo?
 

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isxodnik said:
Perhaps you have words in defense of the laity standing close to the Throne and sitting in the altar, as seen in the photo?
I'd show you a picture of a few altar servers taking a nap in the altar during the long Resurrection service (as kids get sleepy so late at night), but it was posted in a private FB group. They're too cute for words, but you'd probably spontaneously combust in outrage. ;D
 

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Tenderness does not cancel reverence, if you have at least 1000 photos.
 

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isxodnik said:
Tenderness does not cancel reverence, if you have at least 1000 photos.
In this, I agree. Altar servers that are too young can go out of the altar and nap in the pews with mommy.
 

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I fell in the притвор (I do not know how to translate. Entrance part.) ))
 

Dominika

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isxodnik said:
Between seminaries of what Churches in Armenia is an exchange student?
Moscow Theological Academy and Gevorkian seminary, info from 2013. I know also one person from Serbian Orthodox Church studying in Armenia.
 

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Cool. But learning is not communication. Communication is communion from one Chalice. I really hope it doesn't come to that.
 

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isxodnik said:
Cool. But learning is not communication. Communication is communion from one Chalice. I really hope it doesn't come to that.
English is not my first language, but I'd say that for the communion the word "communing" is used, while 'communication' is an example that I've given.

Anyway, even communion from the one Chalice happens.
And let's pray for the unity of EOs and OOs.
 

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No, talk, go to visit - as much as you want, the world-friendship-cud, all people are brothers. But communion from one Chalice in case of divergence between the dogmats - this, of course, darkness and horror.
 

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isxodnik said:
I fell in the притвор (I do not know how to translate. Entrance part.) ))
The Narthex.  And welcome to the club: to my considerable chagrni I fell down a shiny new polished marble staircase in the two-story narthex of St. Mary’s Assyrian Church of the East in Tarzana* while HH Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV was present.  :-X

*Or Encino; it’s next to the OCA and Georgian parish, and a UMC church, and a Jewish yeshiva and synagogue, I just can’t recall which suburban community...technically though both suburbs are just neighborhoods of Los Angeles.
 

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isxodnik said:
No, talk, go to visit - as much as you want, the world-friendship-cud, all people are brothers. But communion from one Chalice in case of divergence between the dogmats - this, of course, darkness and horror.
There being no dogmatic divergence between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, I will take the sacraments from either.  Indeed, from the perspective of sacramental theology and Christology, St. Severus, far from being a heretic, is a rather important “forgotten saint” of the Eastern Orthodox, more important than Origen or Theodore of Mopsuestia, in that it was St. Severus who composed the hymn O Monogenes, it was the theopaschitism of St. Severus which carried the day against the apathartodocetiem of St. Justinian (who remains a saint in my book for taking the bold step of appending O Monogenes to the second antiphon of the Byzantine Rite liturgical synaxis; this hymn of course is the opening hymn in the synaxis of the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and is the central hymn on Good Friday in the Coptic Rite, whereas the Armenian synaxis is the same as the Byzantine one; their liturgy differs mainly in that their sole surviving anaphora is an abbreviated version of the Anaphora of St. James, with some influence from the Basilian anaphoral tradition and that of St. John Chrysostom, and a few Latinizations).

Thus, whereas I would be adamantly opposed to intercommunion between the Orthodox, and say, the Episcopal Church USA, the liberal Lutheran and Calvinist churches, the Baptists, Adventists and other abject heretics, I can’t see a reason to oppose intercommunion between the OO and EOs. 

But we are offtopic, therefore, to return to the OP:

I am, as I said earlier, temporarily opposed to any role for women in the altar except at monasteries, or the ordination of any deaconesses who are not celibate and above the age of sixty, according to the ancient canons, because this has proven within mainline Protestantism to be a backdoor approach which has led to the blasphemous ordination of women to the priesthood and episcopate.  Which is an error so severe that it precludes the possibility of ecumenical dialogue, in my opinion; I believe that the Orthodox churches should withdraw from the WCC due to the high occurrence of female ordination among the predominantly mainline Protestant churches that comprise it, and instead seek to forge an alternative ecclesiastical partnership with traditionalist continuing Anglo Catholics, Old Catholics, the Assyrians, and the Roman Church, and some other traditionalist Protestants that do not regard us as idolatrous (some of the more traditional, high church “Evangelical Catholic” Lutherans, such as the LCMS, come to mind), because with these churches, we have more in common, and are more likely to be able to persuade them to embrace Orthodox doctrine.
 

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Alpha60 said:
The Narthex.  And welcome to the club: to my considerable chagrni I fell down a shiny new polished marble staircase in the two-story narthex of St. Mary’s Assyrian Church of the East in Tarzana* while HH Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV was present.
Thank you!
"Fell" in the sense of "lay the (army) coat from radiators, and sleep" ) Morning prayers in the monastery too early for me )

Alpha60 said:
Thus, whereas I would be adamantly opposed to intercommunion between the Orthodox, and say, the Episcopal Church USA, the liberal Lutheran and Calvinist churches, the Baptists, Adventists and other abject heretics, I can’t see a reason to oppose intercommunion between the OO and EOs. 
I think it's a temptation to be proud to try to be more merciful than God. Very common in the modern world.

On the theme:
I met such opinion that the wife once already taught/teach the husband (Eva - Adam) the bad, and therefore doctrine/teaching the faith/ is inaccessible to her, and she is put in a subordinate position.
Interestingly, while Eva transgressed the law, and seduced Adam, it took some time? Did she have time to feel the death caused by sin? And if she did, why did she feed her husband? On purpose/intention? In any case, it is very similar to the female psychology in our world )
 

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isxodnik said:
Alpha60 said:
The Narthex.  And welcome to the club: to my considerable chagrni I fell down a shiny new polished marble staircase in the two-story narthex of St. Mary’s Assyrian Church of the East in Tarzana* while HH Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV was present.
Thank you!
"Fell" in the sense of "lay the (army) coat from radiators, and sleep" ) Morning prayers in the monastery too early for me )

Alpha60 said:
Thus, whereas I would be adamantly opposed to intercommunion between the Orthodox, and say, the Episcopal Church USA, the liberal Lutheran and Calvinist churches, the Baptists, Adventists and other abject heretics, I can’t see a reason to oppose intercommunion between the OO and EOs. 
I think it's a temptation to be proud to try to be more merciful than God. Very common in the modern world.
What do you think is this temptation?  I do beg your pardon, but I don’t follow.

On the theme:
I met such opinion that the wife once already taught/teach the husband (Eva - Adam) the bad, and therefore doctrine/teaching the faith/ is inaccessible to her, and she is put in a subordinate position.
Interestingly, while Eva transgressed the law, and seduced Adam, it took some time? Did she have time to feel the death caused by sin? And if she did, why did she feed her husband? On purpose/intention? In any case, it is very similar to the female psychology in our world )
It seems unlikely that Eve was immediately aware of the transgression on her part, and I am inclined to reject as misogynistic this particular theological approach.

Rather, the reasons for a male priesthood owe themselves to the Patriarchal nature of the hieratic office; the Priest is a father to his parish, just as, in the case of many married clergy, his wife will often serve as a mother to the parish.  But the sacrificial service in the altar is something proper to the male gender.

It should be observed that those denominations with women admitted to the rank of presbyter or bishop lack the sacrificial theology of the Eucharist that the Orthodox churches possess, as well as the elaborate preparatory rites that are common to the Eastern, Oriental and Assyrian churches.  I would not want to encounter a woman who felt comfortable performing the Proskomide.
 

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Alpha60 said:
What do you think is this temptation?  I do beg your pardon, but I don’t follow.
Despite the mercy of God, there will still be people perdition.
One of the causes of perdition is the false doctrine of God.
We believe in the unity of the Holy, Catholic/соборную and Apostolic Church, and that it teaches the God-revealed truth.
So, those churches that teach differently - teach lies, or mix lies with the truth.
So these churches are leading their followers to perdition.
And communicating (communion) with them is communicating with lies.
To think otherwise is to put your opinion above the will of God.
 

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isxodnik said:
Alpha60 said:
What do you think is this temptation?  I do beg your pardon, but I don’t follow.
Despite the mercy of God, there will still be people perdition.
One of the causes of perdition is the false doctrine of God.
We believe in the unity of the Holy, Catholic/соборную and Apostolic Church, and that it teaches the God-revealed truth.
So, those churches that teach differently - teach lies, or mix lies with the truth.
So these churches are leading their followers to perdition.
And communicating (communion) with them is communicating with lies.
To think otherwise is to put your opinion above the will of God.
Indeed so, which is why no one here, myself included, advocates communion with heretics such as the Episcopal Church USA, (and such communion is not occurring).  By the way old chap, please do us a favor and avoid interpolating Cyrillic words into your posts; most of us know some basic Slavonic terminology such as the meanings of words such as “Pravoslav”, “Trebnik”, “Sluzhbenik,” “Prelest” and so on, but recognizing and transliterating from Cyrillic is an order of magnitude more difficult.
 

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Dominika said:
That is a gorgeous photo.  I have to say Dominika, you always post the coolest stuff, whether that is music or photographs of churches.  :)
 

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Today, Holy Cross Orthodox cathedral in Damascus, Liturgy presided by patriarch John X




 

CarolS

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So does any one know. Are these girls in the photos above processing out from the alta/sanctuaryr in these Syrian Churches? Do girls go in the sanctuary?
 

Dominika

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CarolS said:
So does any one know. Are these girls in the photos above processing out from the alta/sanctuaryr in these Syrian Churches? Do girls go in the sanctuary?
Yes, it's visibile in one of these pics:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22908.msg1561180.html#msg1561180
 
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