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Female Altar Servers??

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LizaSymonenko

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isxodnik said:
...
all questions is rhetorical , I understand that the woman, fly offn the handle, can not be persuade/agitate by reasonable arguments.
This is offensive to all the females made in God's image... including the Mother of God.

Therefore, either you argue your point against female altar servers with valid arguments, and not emotional outbursts, or you will get an official warning.  Understood?
 

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I suspect Isxodnik is about 13.
 

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biro said:
I suspect Isxodnik is about 13.
Is he also a Russian troll bot, or an employee of Putin himself?
 

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Eamonomae said:
biro said:
I suspect Isxodnik is about 13.
Is he also a Russian troll bot, or an employee of Putin himself?
What would Putin gain by making Russia and Russian Orthodoxy look bad?  ;)
 

isxodnik

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LizaSymonenko said:
This is offensive to all the females made in God's image... including the Mother of God.

Therefore, either you argue your point against female altar servers with valid arguments, and not emotional outbursts, or you will get an official warning.  Understood?
Good morning, country! I will answer you that so you understand: сало уронили!
 

isxodnik

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Do you think the ban button made you great and terrible as Goodwin? You were given it to maintain order, and you inflate the extinguished conflict. You know how treat provocateurs?
 

Mor Ephrem

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isxodnik said:
LizaSymonenko said:
This is offensive to all the females made in God's image... including the Mother of God.

Therefore, either you argue your point against female altar servers with valid arguments, and not emotional outbursts, or you will get an official warning.  Understood?
Good morning, country! I will answer you that so you understand: сало уронили!
isxodnik said:
Do you think the ban button made you great and terrible as Goodwin? You were given it to maintain order, and you inflate the extinguished conflict. You know how treat provocateurs?
isxodnik,

It seems you couldn't help yourself, so I will.  For publicly challenging moderation after being warned, posting in a foreign language without providing a translation, ad hominem attacks against another poster, politics in the public fora, and posting polemic in a non-polemical section, I am imposing a warning of one hundred (100) points. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, feel free to PM Dominika, the global moderator who oversees my activity. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
 

Dominika

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Not necesarrily altar, but defintiely liturgical... Greek Catholics from Eparchy of Krizevci (Croatia)
 

hecma925

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I like the traditional dress blouse.
 

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What are they carrying in their left hands?
 

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What are those for?
Liturgical splendour; enhanced solemnity for a feast day.

Original usage is debated. Possibly they were once used as portable reliquaries; another postulated function was their use as incense boxes (censing can take a long time and be a long trek in a great cathedral or monastery with many side chapels and shrines to visit and to cense - take, for example, the Basilica of the Resurrection in Jerusalem).

Another thought is that they were once boxes for the collection of alms - one of the primary reasons the diaconate was created in the first place.
 

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Dominika

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Sofia, Bulgaria - Liturgy on 1st January on Circumision and st. Basil, that I had the God's bless to attend with my boyfriend.







 

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Not necesarrily altar, but defintiely liturgical... Greek Catholics from Eparchy of Krizevci (Croatia)
Dominika, is this you in the middle?
 

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Not necesarrily altar, but defintiely liturgical... Greek Catholics from Eparchy of Krizevci (Croatia)
Vladimir Al- Masih,
is this you on the right?
 

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I'm not used to it outside of monasteries of course. The photos from Bulgaria are also peculiar to me. I'm not in a position to judge though since I'm not the ruling bishop, and it's above my pay-grade. Τhe trapeza at Ormylia, Holy Monastery of the Annunciation:
 
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I'm not used to it outside of monasteries of course. The photos from Bulgaria are also peculiar to me. I'm not in a position to judge though since I'm not the ruling bishop, and it's above my pay-grade. Τhe trapeza at Ormylia, Holy Monastery of the Annunciation:
What is happening here?
 

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This thread is about female altar servers, not the female priesthood. I have yet to see any solid theological reason behind females not being allowed to serve.
A lot of people seem to think it’s just a hop, skip and a jump from acolyte to high priest. St. John Maximovich had girls serving at the cathedral in San Francisco when he was in charge.
Any questions?
 

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We've had some folks even complain about this...that the girls should not be standing by the the Plashchanitisia on Holy Friday...to which I reminded them of the Holy Myrrhbearers.
Good for you to have reminded these bigots of what the image on the Epitaphion depicts!
This notion that females are unworthy of touching a sacred object is widespread throughout the misogynistic societies of the Orthodox commonwealth and emigres import it to American parishes. We might have Protestant, Anglo-American converts who are misogynistic but I don’t know of specific examples. Misogyny is nearly universal in this fallen world and all its cultures express fear and hatred of women in various ways. The Church ought not emulate the fallenness Of human culture but rather be the place where the healing of it begins.
When leaders are weak, fearing scandal at the least appearance of controversy surrounding sex and gender in church, and not teaching the spiritual equality of all persons, the fearful and spiteful will set the tone.
And what is the issue with women and girls handling, when necessary, certain sacred liturgical objects? Where is it written that they are forbidden? I do know there are canons forbidding menstruating women from entering the temple because of the threat of imbruement, because up until very recently there was no sure way to prevent accidental leakage (and I am told there is no perfect solution), which occasion would necessitate the virtual reconsecration of the building. This notion of ritual defilement itself ‘leaks’ into ideas about women and girls. A sense of taboo and ritual uncleanness surrounds females from menarche to menopause, to greater or lesser degrees. That the sight of women presents a ‘distraction from spiritual and otherworldly compntemplation’ heard frequently among Orthodox men (on the internet) says everything I need to know about their own dirty consciences, and nothing about women themselves.
 

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I do know there are canons forbidding menstruating women from entering the temple because of the threat of imbruement, because up until very recently there was no sure way to prevent accidental leakage (and I am told there is no perfect solution), which occasion would necessitate the virtual reconsecration of the building.
This I haven't heard before. Can you explain further? If someone were cut or sprung a bloody nose, for example, and imbrued a part of the temple, would there also be a need to reconsecrate the building? Or is even less necessary... if they stained their own shirt, for example?

Edit: I've heard if a priest somehow cuts himself, he can't serve liturgy, so that makes it about blood, not women. And that I get and take no offense. But I'm intrigued by the reconsecration thing.
 
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This I haven't heard before. Can you explain further? If someone were cut or sprung a bloody nose, for example, and imbrued a part of the temple, would there also be a need to reconsecrate the building? Or is even less necessary... if they stained their own shirt, for example?
If any blood stains the temple, it is considered imbrued and must be ritually cleansed. F a priest cuts his finger during proskomedē he cannot continue until he has stanched the blood flow and bandaged the wound so as not to imbrue the bread from which he is cutting the Lamb. The canons also forbid bringing and fleshmeats into the temple.

I believe such canons defend the singular sacrifice that goes on in our temples, which must be unbloody. The exclusive nature of the sacrifice requires that only bread made of wheat, salt and yeast, and wine made exclusively of grapes be offered on the high altar. No other foodstuffs, or flowers or plants may be placed on the altar in any manner suggesting an offering, as the only acceptable one is Christ’s which he defined at the Mystical Supper as described in the Gospels.

The early church took great pains to prevent syncretic practices from creeping into the celebration of the Eucharist which has a uniquely Hebrew derivation like everything else I can think of in church. To this day the evil-minded, ignorant and scandal-mongering like to falsely ascribe pagan origins to things like the date of Christmas (no, it’s exactly 9 months after Annunciation, of which they know nothing).

Think of the difficulties faced by the early church as a minority religion in a sea of pagan worship, especially in places with few or no Jews whose religious habits would help maintain continuity with temple and synagogue precedents. Nature cults where milk, honey, fruit and flowers are offered seasonally on an altar might creep into local practice if they were not specifically forbidden. The fact that canons forbid them even means that in at least one place such drift did occur.
 

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If any blood stains the temple, it is considered imbrued and must be ritually cleansed. F a priest cuts his finger during proskomedē he cannot continue until he has stanched the blood flow and bandaged the wound so as not to imbrue the bread from which he is cutting the Lamb. The canons also forbid bringing and fleshmeats into the temple.

I believe such canons defend the singular sacrifice that goes on in our temples, which must be unbloody. The exclusive nature of the sacrifice requires that only bread made of wheat, salt and yeast, and wine made exclusively of grapes be offered on the high altar. No other foodstuffs, or flowers or plants may be placed on the altar in any manner suggesting an offering, as the only acceptable one is Christ’s which he defined at the Mystical Supper as described in the Gospels.

The early church took great pains to prevent syncretic practices from creeping into the celebration of the Eucharist which has a uniquely Hebrew derivation like everything else I can think of in church. To this day the evil-minded, ignorant and scandal-mongering like to falsely ascribe pagan origins to things like the date of Christmas (no, it’s exactly 9 months after Annunciation, of which they know nothing).

Think of the difficulties faced by the early church as a minority religion in a sea of pagan worship, especially in places with few or no Jews whose religious habits would help maintain continuity with temple and synagogue precedents. Nature cults where milk, honey, fruit and flowers are offered seasonally on an altar might creep into local practice if they were not specifically forbidden. The fact that canons forbid them even means that in at least one place such drift did occur.
Gotcha. Ok, I have to do the "what about?" thing: Pascha baskets are placed in front of the solea and are loaded with meat. Is that the exception that proves the rule or just a gross dismissal of tradition?

And thank you for answering.
 

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Gotcha. Ok, I have to do the "what about?" thing: Pascha baskets are placed in front of the solea and are loaded with meat. Is that the exception that proves the rule or just a gross dismissal of tradition?

And thank you for answering.
They should never be brought into the temple. That’s on the clergy who ignore the canon or are ignorant of it. Easter baskets, a Russian thing, are not to be blessed in church but outside or in the hall. I know this because it was made clear to me once when I brought sorpresata in a bag to church and was told instantly to take it outside. Every priest of Russian tradition blesses baskets in the hall or on the pavement, often in shifts throughout the day on Holy Saturday.

There are other things that must not be brought into the church, according to canons banning them to prevent the appearance of syncretism (which Protestant pseudoscholars will always charge anyway in their deep ignorance). I was surprised as a neophyte to learn that guitars cannot be brought in, and that deacons are forbidden from playing them. Actually the instrument forbidden was the kithara, less a lute than a lyre, employed in pagan secular musical theatre. They were making the case that lyric theatre performers were not allowed to do double duty as clergy. This must have to do with the performative nature of deaconal liturgical service, where secular stage skills would be good qualifications.
 

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Easter baskets are not just a "Russian" thing... we Ukrainians do the same... but, our baskets are not permitted inside the church, but, placed on tables in either the parish hall, or outside.

On St. Thomas Sunday... baskets are blessed inside the church... but, they may not contain any meat products.
 

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A lot of people seem to think it’s just a hop, skip and a jump from acolyte to high priest. St. John Maximovich had girls serving at the cathedral in San Francisco when he was in charge.
Any questions?
No. That is inaccurate. The girls did not "serve". Once a year, on the feast of the Entrance of the Mother of God, they carried candles in the nave. They were not vested like altar servers, nor did they perform any of the other functions of altar servers. They certainly did not go into the altar.
 

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Easter baskets are not just a "Russian" thing... we Ukrainians do the same... but, our baskets are not permitted inside the church, but, placed on tables in either the parish hall, or outside.

On St. Thomas Sunday... baskets are blessed inside the church... but, they may not contain any meat products.
And it's also even Polish thing, both for Orthodox and Catholics, and now because of Ukrainian migration, we saw that we have different traditions reagarding it (and had some problems, especially our priests, but also some believers, but that's other story). For us it's a sign of great waiting on the Great Saturday and good occassion to pray in front of epitaphios/the Christ's tomb. The baskets containt meat and are put inside the church on special, decorated tables, close to epitaphios if it's possible. Actually there is traditional set what should be there, everything has a meaning. When you read the Slavic Pentecostarion, it's written that the meat can't be brought to the altar part to not be confused with true Paschal Lamb, i.e Christ, His Body and Blood.

My Roman Catholic friend when moved to Colombia, asked local priest to bless the basket, as it's so important for us. The same me when I was in Lebanon, after Liturgy of st. Basilios (Arabs have blessing of eggs - also in baskets - and cheese after Paschal Liturgy at night) - meanwhile Russian girls that have been there already 3rd year had never brought anything and when I told them that I had asked the priest, so they prepared only those cookies (kulichy) with candles inside.

Photos mine, from my parish. The blessing starts after the st. Basilios Liturgy (in case of Roman Catholics, from the Great Saturday morning) until late afternoon). If you see only cake with candle, it's not Polish.






And that's example how it looks among Polish Roman Catholics:
 

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Easter baskets are not just a "Russian" thing... we Ukrainians do the same... but, our baskets are not permitted inside the church, but, placed on tables in either the parish hall, or outside.

On St. Thomas Sunday... baskets are blessed inside the church... but, they may not contain any meat products.
Well the Ukrainians make up the better part of Russian Orthodoxy…
 

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Good for you to have reminded these bigots of what the image on the Epitaphion depicts!
This notion that females are unworthy of touching a sacred object is widespread throughout the misogynistic societies of the Orthodox commonwealth and emigres import it to American parishes. We might have Protestant, Anglo-American converts who are misogynistic but I don’t know of specific examples. Misogyny is nearly universal in this fallen world and all its cultures express fear and hatred of women in various ways. The Church ought not emulate the fallenness Of human culture but rather be the place where the healing of it begins.
When leaders are weak, fearing scandal at the least appearance of controversy surrounding sex and gender in church, and not teaching the spiritual equality of all persons, the fearful and spiteful will set the tone.
And what is the issue with women and girls handling, when necessary, certain sacred liturgical objects? Where is it written that they are forbidden? I do know there are canons forbidding menstruating women from entering the temple because of the threat of imbruement, because up until very recently there was no sure way to prevent accidental leakage (and I am told there is no perfect solution), which occasion would necessitate the virtual reconsecration of the building. This notion of ritual defilement itself ‘leaks’ into ideas about women and girls. A sense of taboo and ritual uncleanness surrounds females from menarche to menopause, to greater or lesser degrees. That the sight of women presents a ‘distraction from spiritual and otherworldly compntemplation’ heard frequently among Orthodox men (on the internet) says everything I need to know about their own dirty consciences, and nothing about women themselves.
Good post (and the relevant canon regarding meat is Q.99), though one point about menstruation. While there is an element of ritual purity involved (eg, canon Dionysios.2), specifically regarding blood (and in that, it is "genderless" in application), the prohibition during menstruation extends not just to the altar/Liturgy/etc but to *all public, communal, liturgical prayer*. This is because being cut off from liturgical communion, as discussed in another thread, is not necessarily an "evil", but is first public iconography. In this case, the menstruation normally begins around the time the Birthgiver Mary became pregnant (her early teens) and ends about the time Jesus Christ was crucified (her mid 40s to early 50s, giving the usual Patristic spread of about 33–40 years old for Jesus). And blood signifies life, obviously.

So menstruation itself is iconic, not just of St Mary but also of Jesus Christ's Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection (and Ascension—menopause ends menstruation). And it forms a holy basis for partaking (not just of the flesh, but in *one's own flesh*) in a different way (not "liturgical" Eucharist) of Jesus Christ and His holy mother. Given this partaking, there is a double problem (on top of any concern about blood) of participating in a liturgy: one has already clearly partaken (liturgy would be a *2nd* communion in the same day!), and the liturgy is itself just one anamnesis, not the goal of life (putting liturgy before biology would not only break tons of other canons, but over-elevate the place of liturgy in the life of the Kingdom). Thus, in the words of St Dionysios (from his canon), this does not lay on some Jewish ritual impurity where the woman has to hide out in some form of isolation, she is rather free (as one who has partaken) to go out into the world, glorifying the Lord, and praying "at any time and in any state whatever, and petitioning to receive help". I hope that "ties things together" more clearly: the ban on menstruating woman entering the temple (even with modern hygiene products) remains fully in force, but the teaching of the Church reminds us that this (like other canon law matters) is not primarily a sin or a sickness or a problem with women but rather another unique way (helping counterbalance males being clergy) in which women serve Christ.
 

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Well the Ukrainians make up the better part of Russian Orthodoxy…
If you say "Russian" as "ruskiy" and not "rosiskiy" (sorry for terrible transcription) - ok, but if the latter one, no, as Ukrainians are not Russians.
 
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