Fill your life with hundreds of rituals and if you have time left, follow me!

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?
Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.
We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!
 

username!

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
5,090
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Where Iron hydrochloride ruins watersheds
Sunday of Orthodoxy homily from oh 5 years ago the priest, Fr. Frank Miloro from the ACROD said, not verbatim mind you, that while we have all these beautiful churches and services the most precious and glorious praise and worship (outside of liturgy) we can give to God is by following the mandates Christ set out in Matthew chapter 25, if we're not doing that than all the services and prostrations we do are just empty motions.   And you know what, Fr. Frank is 100% right because he didn't create that homily, he was just repeating what Christ said in Matthew ch. 25.  Probably the best homily I have ever heard.  If you ever get a chance, catch a homily from Fr. Frank or read some of Fr. Jonathan Tobias' writings, both are Carpatho-Russian Orthodox priests.
 

FormerReformer

Archon
Site Supporter
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Messages
2,759
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
40
Location
Santa Fe, NM
Website
mcommini2.blogspot.com
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.

Yes, empty ritual is meaningless. Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own (I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)? Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?

And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored, the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs. Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
 

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
FormerReformer said:
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.
Evidently not enough if your post below is anything to go by.

Yes, empty ritual is meaningless.
Ah i see, it's okay to fill our lives with ritual, so long as it is meaninful?

Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual...
I purposely didn't specify empty or meaninful because it's a false dichotomy as far as this is concerned.

...in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.

(I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)?
I'm sure you could. It's a good way of justifying what you do.

Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?
No, that would be equally as mind-numbingly tedious as discussing robe colours, tones, crossing yourself and how many times you should sit and stand during a service!

And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored,
Yes, and now the old has gone and the new has come.

...the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs.
*yawn* Misfire.

Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
Then do it and honour God.
 

Schultz

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
6,690
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
45
Location
BaltiCORE, MD
Website
www.theidlegossip.com
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them. 

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.
 

Apples

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
4,360
Reaction score
0
Points
0
...these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
 

Melodist

Archon
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
2,522
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
38
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?

Besides, I would bet money that if you spent any prolonged amount of time with a drug addict, you would find that there is a lot you can actually learn from them.

William said:
...these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
You stole that quote from Somebody didn't you...

I think it fits the context of this discussion perfectly.
 

Alveus Lacuna

Taxiarches
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
7,416
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Missouri, USA
FountainPen said:
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.
Doesn't sound like Christianity to me. You're not a member of a body (or THE Body) if you don't assemble/re-member. Your version sounds like dismembrance.
 

FormerReformer

Archon
Site Supporter
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Messages
2,759
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
40
Location
Santa Fe, NM
Website
mcommini2.blogspot.com
FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.
Evidently not enough if your post below is anything to go by.

Yes, empty ritual is meaningless.
Ah i see, it's okay to fill our lives with ritual, so long as it is meaninful?

Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual...
I purposely didn't specify empty or meaninful because it's a false dichotomy as far as this is concerned.
Then you apparently either don't understand "ritual" or "meaning". Plenty of rituals are commanded, even in the New Testament, and even by our Lord. I'll expand on this more at the appropriate point in your response.
FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
...in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.
I see. You're a homeless person complaining about how we rich folk don't really need fancy plumbing. Or roofs. Or food that doesn't come from a dumpster.

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
(I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)?
I'm sure you could. It's a good way of justifying what you do.
i wouldn't say "justifying". I would say "pointing out a simple fact of being human". Rituals exist, not because God needs them, but because humans do. Rituals are a simple fact of human existence, and every healthy person has hundreds they go through each day- from brushing teeth at regular intervals and on. And even teeth brushing can be done to the honor of God.

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?
No, that would be equally as mind-numbingly tedious as discussing robe colours, tones, crossing yourself and how many times you should sit and stand during a service!
If you don't wish to discuss these things (or at the very least to find out why we do them, as opposed to labeling everything that seems odd "ritual", in this context a useless and judgmental word) then why post on an Orthodox web-site at all? If the only reason you are here is to judge us for discussing these things (oh no! People who are interested in Church Singing are discussing TONES! And look at those nasty music majors discussing SCALES! And how dare a guitarist discuss STRINGS!) then you might as well be coming to our house and commenting on our toilet paper roll hanging method. I hereby promote you to Chief Toilet-paper Roll Inspector Fountain Pen (abbreviated CTPRI), and as such you shall be known from here-on out (by me, anyway)!
FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored,
Yes, and now the old has gone and the new has come.
And with the new has come new ritual- the Eucharist (commanded by our Lord in every Gospel but St John's, explained thoroughly in St John's Gospel, commanded again by St Paul), Baptism (commanded by our Lord, called the "new circumcision" by St Paul, etc), ordination (started by our Lord with the Apostles, done by the Apostles in the book of Acts, instructions given by St Paul), Church attendance (St Paul, traditionally, or the author of the Hebrews since tradition is a mean stupid-head who smells), and so on and so forth.

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
...the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs.
*yawn* Misfire.
Well, let's see what we can infer by your comments so far- no ritual, Low Church, check (to the point of being No Church, as you have indicated previously in this comment). "Jesus is my co-pilot" theology, what naturally follows "absolutely no rituals, x(another ritual) is far more important" thinking, check. I'm sorry, do your sing-alongs have electric guitar? Wow, so your (insert whatever non-church meeting group [assuming you have one, and aren't just a "worshiping the Lord in the privacy of my own home" non-church person, which I would hope you are not, because the Bible says absolutely nothing about that and commands Church attendance] gathering is called here) has finally moved in to the 1990s- how progressive. Oooh, or maybe you do drum circles! Seriously, its all nice that you take our reductio ad absurdums of your hyper-low-church (henceforth known as no-Church) philosophy as somehow missing the mark of whatever you consider yourself to be, but saying things like "I am not a Protestant/I have never been to an acoustic guitar sing-along/etc" is not winning points in an argument when all you use are Protestant acoustic sing-along cliche's. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, floats on water like a duck, and flies like a duck, I am hardly going to think it is anything other than a duck, no matter how much it insists that it is, indeed, an ardvaark.
FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
Then do it and honour God.
Ooooh, snappy. You so win. Oh, wait, helping addicts and teaching abstinence only sex ed are rituals. And the only ways you can help addicts and teach abstinence-only sex ed are by teaching rituals (prayer, cold-showers, etc).  Hmmmm, you just kind of proved my point entirely. No, nevermind. I win.

Ah, who cares.

Score keeping is SooooooOOOOO ritualistic  ::)

EDIT: A few words added to develop and clarify a point
 

stavros_388

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
1,325
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Canada
Schultz said:
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind. 
The same goes for me.

 

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
FormerReformer said:
FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
*yawn*

I'm sorry, that broken record woke me up.
Evidently not enough if your post below is anything to go by.

Yes, empty ritual is meaningless.
Ah i see, it's okay to fill our lives with ritual, so long as it is meaninful?

Perhaps instead of pointing out what you believe to be empty ritual...
I purposely didn't specify empty or meaninful because it's a false dichotomy as far as this is concerned.
Then you apparently either don't understand "ritual" or "meaning". Plenty of rituals are commanded, even in the New Testament, and even by our Lord. I'll expand on this more at the appropriate point in your response.
Is crossing yourself commanded? No, i didn't think so.

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
...in another denomination, you perhaps go about having it removed from your own
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.
I see. You're a homeless person complaining about how we rich folk don't really need fancy plumbing. Or roofs. Or food that doesn't come from a dumpster.
How original. A man who swings to extremes to try and make a useless point.

I'm not homeless, but if i were, i would be in good company for the Son of Man had nowhere to lay His head!

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
(I could point out many examples of empty ritual in whichever denomination you choose- Sunday church going to start with)?
I'm sure you could. It's a good way of justifying what you do.
i wouldn't say "justifying". I would say "pointing out a simple fact of being human". Rituals exist, not because God needs them, but because humans do. Rituals are a simple fact of human existence, and every healthy person has hundreds they go through each day- from brushing teeth at regular intervals and on. And even teeth brushing can be done to the honor of God.
Exactly and if man had his way, we would fill our lives with more and more of them, in the name of religion of course.

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
Or do you have a habit of going to other people's houses and complaining that the under-the-roll method of toilet paper hanging is more sanitary than the over-the-roll method?
No, that would be equally as mind-numbingly tedious as discussing robe colours, tones, crossing yourself and how many times you should sit and stand during a service!
If you don't wish to discuss these things (or at the very least to find out why we do them,
i did ask in the other thread about the origins of crossing yourself the first example of it recorded. That's how this thread started. I'm not in the habit of starting threads by making up quotes from another poster.

...as opposed to labeling everything that seems odd "ritual",
Never said it seemed odd.

why post on an Orthodox web-site at all?
Because it's Monday tomorrow.

If the only reason you are here is to judge us for discussing these things (oh no! People who are interested in Church Singing are discussing TONES! And look at those nasty music majors discussing SCALES! And how dare a guitarist discuss STRINGS!) then you might as well be coming to our house and commenting on our toilet paper roll hanging method. I hereby promote you to Chief Toilet-paper Roll Inspector Fountain Pen (abbreviated CTPRI), an as such you shall be known from here-on out (by me, anyway)!
Name calling so early in a thread Former Reformer?

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
And, of course, empty ritual is meaningless- not ritual in general. Just like in the OT the ritualistic sacrifice without obedience to go along with it meant nothing but done with obedience was something God honored,
Yes, and now the old has gone and the new has come.
And with the new has come new ritual- the Eucharist (commanded by our Lord in every Gospel but St John's, explained thoroughly in St John's Gospel, commanded again by St Paul), Baptism (commanded by our Lord, called the "new circumcision" by St Paul, etc), ordination (started by our Lord with the Apostles, done by the Apostles in the book of Acts, instructions given by St Paul), Church attendance (St Paul, traditionally, or the author of the Hebrews since tradition is a mean stupid-head who smells), and so on and so forth.
You're referencing things that are commanded again. Can you show me where crossing yourself is commanded?

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
...the sign of the cross or lighting a candle or the hundred of Orthodox rituals when done in the proper spirit can mean infinitely more than any number of low-church "Jesus is my co-pilot" acoustic guitar sing-alongs.
*yawn* Misfire.
Well, let's see what we can infer by your comments so far- no ritual, Low Church, check (to the point of being No Church, as you have indicated previously in this comment). "Jesus is my co-pilot" theology, what naturally follows "absolutely no rituals, x(another ritual) is far more important" thinking, check. I'm sorry, do your sing-alongs have electric guitar? Wow, so your (insert whatever non-church meeting group [assuming you have one, and aren't just a "worshiping the Lord in the privacy of my own home" non-church person, which I would hope you are not, because the Bible says absolutely nothing about that and commands Church attendance] gathering is called here)
I gather.

...has finally moved in to the 1990s- how progressive. Oooh, or maybe you do drum circles!
Nope

Seriously, its all nice that you take our reductio ad absurdums
You forgot the customary italics.

of your hyper-low-church (henceforth known as no-Church) as somehow missing the mark of whatever you consider yourself to be, but saying things like...
*yawn* ranting

"I am not a Protestant/I have never been to an acoustic guitar sing-along/etc" is not winning points in an argument when all you use are Protestant acoustic sing-along cliche's. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, floats on water like a duck, and flies like a duck,
*zzz* babbling

I am hardly going to think it is anything other than a duck, no matter how much it insists that it is, indeed, an ardvaark.
Are you done? Phew!

FountainPen said:
FormerReformer said:
Likewise, helping addicts and teaching abstinence-only sex ed to our high-school students means jack squat if not done to honor God.
Then do it and honour God.
Ooooh, snappy. You so win. Oh, wait, helping addicts and teaching abstinence only sex ed are rituals. And the only ways you can help addicts and teach abstinence-only sex ed are by teaching rituals (prayer, cold-showers, etc).  Hmmmm, you just kind of proved my point entirely. No, nevermind. I win.

Ah, who cares.
Apparently you do given how much you have to say.
 

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alveus Lacuna said:
FountainPen said:
I don't have a denomination, i don't go to a church building or belong to one.
Doesn't sound like Christianity to me. You're not a member of a body (or THE Body) if you don't assemble/re-member. Your version sounds like dismembrance.
I'm passed caring what it sounds like to other people.

I gather.

I am part of The Body.
 

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Melodist said:
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?
It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission
 

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Schultz said:
FountainPen,

I can only speak for myself, but these rituals help me, a grave sinner, to reorient my life on at least a weekly basis.  I suck.  I know I do.  I constantly find myself doing that which I do not want to do and not doing that which I want to.  These rituals help me to remember that.  If they help for but an hour before I fall again, that's an hour I spend with my mind on the Lord rather than the filth of my own mind.  Were my faith as great as yours, I would not need them. 

But I do.

Please forgive me for my weakness.
False humility doesn't suit you Schultz. Maybe you should get your mind off yourself then you wouldn't need all your rituals.
 

Melodist

Archon
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
2,522
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
38
FountainPen said:
Melodist said:
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?
It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission
So now it's in mutual exclusion to making disciples and baptizing (a ritual)?
 

Alveus Lacuna

Taxiarches
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
7,416
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Missouri, USA
FountainPen said:
I'm passed caring what it sounds like to other people.

I gather.

I am part of The Body.
When hands are cut-off they are thrown into the flames. Or fed to the trolls as chum.
 

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alveus Lacuna said:
FountainPen said:
I'm passed caring what it sounds like to other people.

I gather.

I am part of The Body.
When hands are cut-off they are thrown into the flames. Or fed to the trolls as chum.
I am no more "cut off" from the rest of the body than your OOs are from your EOs  ;)
 

FountainPen

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Melodist said:
FountainPen said:
Melodist said:
Why does doing "ritual movements" like the sign of the cross have to be put in mutual exclusion of helping drug addicts and feeding the hungry?
It doesn't. But if you fill your time and thoughts with more and more of them, then you're not spending that time thinking about and acting on what we are commanded to do -- re:The Great Commission
So now it's in mutual exclusion to making disciples and baptizing (a ritual)?
What "it"? Be specific.
 
Top