Fill your life with hundreds of rituals and if you have time left, follow me!

PJ

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FountainPen said:
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital
Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.
 

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FountainPen said:
Quote from: Ortho_Cat
Quote from: FountainPen
Where/when/by whom was the practice was first recorded?
Jesus was the first to take up his cross...we are called to follow him, and doing this reminds us of that.
We are told to take up our cross, not to perform ritualised hand movements merely to remind us of what Jesus did.

Why clog the Christian life with rituals piled high on top of one another and then to discuss how many times we're all supposed to do them or in what way we do them? Doesn't life have enough real challenges in it for you (the Church)? The world is going to hell in a handbasket while we all colours of robes, liturgies, incense and prostrations while we (the various Churches) could be discussing how we can organise ourselves to aid the current issues of drug abuse, alcoholism and promiscuity.

Good grief, that we should all fill our lives with rituals!
Rituals are not pointless or meaningless, it is that which binds us in Love.  In my marriage, I have rituals I do concerning my wife such as getting her coffee ready in the morning for work.  It seems like nothing but it is something that binds and can be counted on.

Now also reading though the thread I think the problem is that we fundamentally disagree on exactly who Christ Jesus is to the world and each of us.  Christ Jesus came in the flesh, His incarnation, the Church in a profound mystery is the continued incarnation of our Lord.  These rituals, that are universally accepted long before your sect was born, are in there essence given by Christ Jesus Himself, he being mysteriously the Church also, for our benefit and the world.  We are both Body and Soul, the rituals are given for us, to tame our bodies to submit to the soul and the eye of the soul kept on God the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, it being a living Worship of God.  The reason being is that in the fall our bodies took control and ruled over our soul, those who enter into Christ are working with Him to reverse that damage, drawing us into a closer, deeper, communion with our Lord and rituals have always been part of that process.

As a former Baptist, I thought they were empty, until I started practicing them but that truly can't be explained until on experiences the rituals as they are meant.  This is how I see it, but if I am in error I am sure someone will correct me.
 

Ortho_cat

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The first mention of Christians making the sign of the Cross is in the 2nd Century by Tertullian who said: "In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross" (De cor. Mil., iii).

It seems this was a well established practice by the time Tertullian mentioned it here.
 

FountainPen

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Peter J said:
FountainPen said:
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital
Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.
Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.
 

Papist

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FountainPen said:
Peter J said:
FountainPen said:
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital
Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.
Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.
Well, your personal view is foreign to historical Christianity.
 

Ortho_cat

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FountainPen said:
Peter J said:
FountainPen said:
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital
Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.
Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.
so what do you consider it to be then?
 

Second Chance

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FountainPen said:
I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Christians are mentally unwell but i'm suggesting that there is a line where rituals can be problematic to us even though we feel we might have good reasons for them.
Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?  :D
 

FountainPen

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Ortho_cat said:
FountainPen said:
Peter J said:
FountainPen said:
I don't see the church primarily as a hospital
Really? The idea of the church as a "hospital for sinners" is common to Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants alike.
Goody! I'm a person.
Expressing my personal view.
so what do you consider it to be then?
I have no idea Ortho Cat, i really don't. I have never thought of the church in any way other than a functioning body of working parts that make up a whole with Christ as the head.

I can see there being problems when you make the church into a hospital.

Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
 

NicholasMyra

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FountainPen said:
Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
I don't think that's the hospital mentality failing.

I think it's a hipster/self-authority mentality.

I'm from Seattle, one of the hipster meccas of the world. What you have just described is how every church in my area functions, to the extreme. The main goal is to troll for... well, I suppose on this forum I'll have to say 'women', and attention, via awkward and unconvincing demagoguery. The only churches in my area that do not are some of the catholic and Orthodox churches, and churches that are part of an unfashionable protestant denomination (southern baptist, classical evangelical, etc.)
 

dzheremi

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FountainPen said:
I can see there being problems when you make the church into a hospital.

Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.
What does this mean?

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.
"Celebrity" culture in church? Do you mean like the televangelist thing, or how we pay respect to our priests and bishops? Because I think it's easy to mix up the two if you're not actually in the church.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
Yes. Treatment, medicine, and with the power of God, healing.
 

Ortho_cat

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if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  ???
 

FountainPen

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NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
I don't think that's the hospital mentality failing.

I think it's a hipster/self-authority mentality.

I'm from Seattle, one of the hipster meccas of the world. What you have just described is how every church in my area functions, to the extreme. The main goal is to troll for... well, I suppose on this forum I'll have to say 'women', and attention, via awkward and unconvincing demagoguery. The only churches in my area that do not are some of the catholic and Orthodox churches, and churches that are part of an unfashionable protestant denomination (southern baptist, classical evangelical, etc.)
I agree, there are other healthy ways a spiritual hospital could function but i don't see the need for the hospital at the moment. Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity? Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?
Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.

 

FountainPen

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Ortho_cat said:
if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  ???
Go there to the church building, i guess my answer would be... to gather.

Why do we gather? I suppose to edify and encourage each other in Christ.

I do not believe we go to a church building to worship God. Like i have expressed before, i believe worship is what you do all week.
 

PeterTheAleut

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FountainPen said:
PeterTheAleut said:
FountainPen said:
You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
What do you think we might get with a 'hospital' identity?
Well, with that set up, you can either be sick, a doctor or a visitor.
We're all sick and in need of healing, and Jesus Christ is the Physician. Would you not agree?
 

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Second Chance said:
FountainPen said:
I'm not suggesting that Orthodox Christians are mentally unwell but i'm suggesting that there is a line where rituals can be problematic to us even though we feel we might have good reasons for them.
Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?  :D
No, however, i can do a handstand while reciting Lago's soliloquy  ;D
 

Papist

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FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Similar to the problems you have when you make celebrities in church, you set a focused identity and you will create an unhealthy environment where people can often stay stuck.

Churches with a 'celebrity' culture will often have cartoon-tie Christians clamouring for center stage with their latest ministry.

You can imagine what you might get with a 'hospital' identity.
I don't think that's the hospital mentality failing.

I think it's a hipster/self-authority mentality.

I'm from Seattle, one of the hipster meccas of the world. What you have just described is how every church in my area functions, to the extreme. The main goal is to troll for... well, I suppose on this forum I'll have to say 'women', and attention, via awkward and unconvincing demagoguery. The only churches in my area that do not are some of the catholic and Orthodox churches, and churches that are part of an unfashionable protestant denomination (southern baptist, classical evangelical, etc.)
I agree, there are other healthy ways a spiritual hospital could function but i don't see the need for the hospital at the moment. Given the scriptures mention that we run the race, why not have an Olympics identity? Our identity as Christians isn't soley that we are sick, it's much more than that. i don't see the necessity and i just think, given fallen humanity the propensity for staying sick, as it were, is hoooge!
The analogies are not mutually exclusive. In both cases you are talking about people improving their health. You are positing a false dichotomy.
 

Papist

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FountainPen said:
Ortho_cat said:
if we don't go to church to be healed and spiritually fed, restoring our wholeness in Christ, what do we go there for? socializing? to show each other how saintly we are? Seriously...I don't see the alternative here...  ???
Go there to the church building, i guess my answer would be... to gather.

Why do we gather? I suppose to edify and encourage each other in Christ.

I do not believe we go to a church building to worship God. Like i have expressed before, i believe worship is what you do all week.
That's interesting, because I think that everything we do is worship of God, including meeting on sunday to sing hymns of praise, and being united to him in the sacrament of his Body and Blood.
 
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