Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

ialmisry

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ialmisry

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Daedelus1138 said:
I listened to Fr. Josiah's 2015 speech.  I could see how in other contexts he would have a lot of good things to say about other topics.  The problem, however, is a lot of this type of Orthodox theology is that it can seem overly romantic at times, leading to a totalizing worldview that lacks one of the key things I think is important in Christian ethics - vulnerability when faced with the other.
The only "Other" in Christian ethics is the Adversary.

Daedelus1138 said:
The need for vulnerability can only arise from a deep appreciation for repentance and humility, and sometimes I think the "religious" mindset works against this, because it creates a safe-haven of certainty beyond critique.  On a superficial level religion promises certainties, especially the modern take on religion as a "worldview" or metanarrative.  So threats to those certainties become existential threats.
and precisely this projection necessitates that the camel's nose has to be cut off as soon as it appears in the tent.

Daedelus1138 said:
I am surprised there is so much discussion about preaching against sin, and doing so focusing on the "correct" sins.  Preaching about sin risks alienating people, especially in a pluralistic world.
and yet the Apostles preached it to the pluralistic Greco-Roman (and beyond) world with its myriad of cults and immoralities.

Daedelus1138 said:
If you raise the barriers to even beginning to live a holy life (which IMO is all that is essential), nobody is going to bother because they will feel crushed before they even start.  You will have a church of self-justified religious people.  I don't see it as compatible with Jesus' message.
The self-serving hallucinations of Jesus loving the sin to love the sinner can blind one so he cannot see.
 

ialmisry

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FinnJames said:
I'll try to answer the questions minasoliman poses but have put them in a different order than they appear in in his post.

minasoliman said:
My question is this concerning LGBT movements.  What has been affective to bring them to repentance? 
I'd say it's individuals, not movements, that come to repentance. So I think you need to consider how anyone comes to repentance. I would suggest that at least four things are required for repentance to occur:
1. The sinner needs to feel that his/her sin is not working for him/her anymore.
2. The sinner needs to want to change his/her behaviour.
3. The sinner needs to know that an alternative is possible.
4. Because coming to repentance is a long, slow process with many potential lapses, the sinner needs support from his/her church.
You forget that before step 1, you have to see sin as sin.
FinnJames said:
minasoliman said:
Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
If you see evils in the LGBT community, I'd say you have to speak out about them--but you need to do so in love and choose your words carefully.

(Of course the flip side of this is that one has to be willing to listen when LGBT people point out the evils, or to use a milder term, failings they see in the church.)
refusing to redefine marriage is not a failing, let alone an evil.
FinnJames said:
minasoliman said:
Is Fr. Josiah actually bringing them to repentance, or does he only care about political issues?
It isn't for any of us to know what motivates Fr Trenham. But if I remember correctly, he has 10 children. I can say with certainty that if I had even one child, I would be tremendously concerned about what kind of world they were growing up in.
Fr. Trenham shows that he does-hence his travel to Georgia.
 

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ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
I'll try to answer the questions minasoliman poses but have put them in a different order than they appear in in his post.

minasoliman said:
My question is this concerning LGBT movements.  What has been affective to bring them to repentance? 
I'd say it's individuals, not movements, that come to repentance. So I think you need to consider how anyone comes to repentance. I would suggest that at least four things are required for repentance to occur:
1. The sinner needs to feel that his/her sin is not working for him/her anymore.
2. The sinner needs to want to change his/her behaviour.
3. The sinner needs to know that an alternative is possible.
4. Because coming to repentance is a long, slow process with many potential lapses, the sinner needs support from his/her church.
You forget that before step 1, you have to see sin as sin.
See the emboldened sentence above.
 

minasoliman

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FinnJames said:
I'll try to answer the questions minasoliman poses but have put them in a different order than they appear in in his post.

minasoliman said:
My question is this concerning LGBT movements.  What has been affective to bring them to repentance? 
I'd say it's individuals, not movements, that come to repentance. So I think you need to consider how anyone comes to repentance. I would suggest that at least four things are required for repentance to occur:
1. The sinner needs to feel that his/her sin is not working for him/her anymore.
2. The sinner needs to want to change his/her behaviour.
3. The sinner needs to know that an alternative is possible.
4. Because coming to repentance is a long, slow process with many potential lapses, the sinner needs support from his/her church.

minasoliman said:
Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
If you see evils in the LGBT community, I'd say you have to speak out about them--but you need to do so in love and choose your words carefully.

(Of course the flip side of this is that one has to be willing to listen when LGBT people point out the evils, or to use a milder term, failings they see in the church.)

minasoliman said:
Is Fr. Josiah actually bringing them to repentance, or does he only care about political issues?
It isn't for any of us to know what motivates Fr Trenham. But if I remember correctly, he has 10 children. I can say with certainty that if I had even one child, I would be tremendously concerned about what kind of world they were growing up in.
Yes, I meant individuals, not whole groups.  Sorry for the confusion.

Otherwise, these are good points to reflect on.
 

Charles Martel

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A voice crying in the wilderness. Be forewarned: the Pink Mafia is going to go ballistic.
Of course they will, that is their typical reaction to anyone that defies them because the sodomite knows in his heart what he/she is doing is really, really wrong. Because they are controlled by their passions that are disordered, they are neurotic and slaves to some kind of narcissistic  fantasy that the whole world is against them because of their behavior, they feel persecuted and discriminated against by straight or "normal" people who are naturally appalled by their degradation and sin of their sodomical lust and "lifestyle". And they don't want to be told by anyone that what their doing is wrong, not even by the clergy or the doctrines of their own Church or religion. They will go to any length to justify their abominations and demand "acceptance" from anyone and everyone.

Like attack this good priest's name who dares to speak the truth on the reality of the LBGT agenda.

But please, don't refer to them as Pink "mafia" or "nazis" because they are truly an offense to both.

 

FinnJames

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ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
minasoliman said:
Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
If you see evils in the LGBT community, I'd say you have to speak out about them--but you need to do so in love and choose your words carefully.

(Of course the flip side of this is that one has to be willing to listen when LGBT people point out the evils, or to use a milder term, failings they see in the church.)
refusing to redefine marriage is not a failing, let alone an evil.
I have stated before, though I can't remember whether in a public post or in a private one to someone other than you, that I do not see any way in which a same-sex couple could qualify for Orthodox marriage or fulfill the symbolic roles of Orthodox marriage partners. But this does not mean that I see no way in which same-sex couples could cohabit and still maintain the Church's approval.

I find the views you, Clemente and Charles Martel and to some extent wgw espouse on homosexuality neither loving nor anything other than a pedantic insistence on the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. I've been told that the devil will always present two opposing alternatives for us to choose from. Here I would say that the wanton abandon of the LGBT culture/Homofasciests you so rightly abhor is one side and the hard-necked clinging to what you take to be the position of Scripture/Tradition on homosexuality you are so unwilling to budge from is the other. There is a middle ground where at least dialogue and mutual understanding are possible, but you have so far shown yourselves to be unwilling to enter it.
 

ialmisry

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FinnJames said:
ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
I'll try to answer the questions minasoliman poses but have put them in a different order than they appear in in his post.

minasoliman said:
My question is this concerning LGBT movements.  What has been affective to bring them to repentance? 
I'd say it's individuals, not movements, that come to repentance. So I think you need to consider how anyone comes to repentance. I would suggest that at least four things are required for repentance to occur:
1. The sinner needs to feel that his/her sin is not working for him/her anymore.
2. The sinner needs to want to change his/her behaviour.
3. The sinner needs to know that an alternative is possible.
4. Because coming to repentance is a long, slow process with many potential lapses, the sinner needs support from his/her church.
You forget that before step 1, you have to see sin as sin.
See the emboldened sentence above.
I did. Hence the reference to step 1.
 

Charles Martel

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  In the US, one can arguably speak out on the evils of the LGBT lobby without incurring violent repercussions to those same people.
Actually, in the U.S. you will incur violent repurcussions FROM the LBGT lobby  when you openly speak against sodomy. And not only in the U.S. but other nations that have been "tolerant" of this unatural and demonic "agenda".

So places like in the East like Georgia and Russia are trying to prevent that from happening.

Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
No , you would rather make them feel comfortable in their sin and take the high road of "charity" when in reality your not being charitable at all by being silent and indirectly confirming them in a sin that is the pathway to hell and destruction.

Having said that, would  you hesitate to speak the evils of abortion if the pro-"choice" crowd happened to be in the congregation?

Or any other movement that is directly antithetical to Christianity?

I smell double-standard from the PC christian as usual when it comes to sodomy.

There is an example of a (former?) lesbian woman, Rosaria Butterfield, who upon having a relationship with a Methodist parish was able to repent and leave her past. As far as I am aware, that parish was never vociferous as Fr. Josiah.  Unless Fr. Josiah has people from the LGBT community he converted, it seems to me he's more of a political activist than a prie
Key sentence. At any rate, is now Christ a political activist because he might not have had converts from the opposite end of the Gospel message? So you need "converts" just to justify speaking the Truth?

Using your analogy on Nazis, let's consider an actual example of a political activist in the past, Martin Luther King.  I have never listened to him bashing against the white man, but rather looking forward to resist injustice while maintaining a love for your enemy.  Now, here's the amazing thing.  He's the minority.  We are the majority as you admit.  How much more then should we desire to speak out against whatever laws may do while we also maintain the desire to save ALL of God's children!
Hoorible example. MLK was attempting to unite people divded by race/culture for the right reasons, even from a Christian perspective. He was trying to overcome a prejudice system of Jim Crowe and cultural racism, not encourge people in their sin of sodomy and the unatural LBGT "lifestyle", you are comparing apples and oranges.

I think it's an insult to blacks whenever they bring up their struggle for equality in the South decades ago to the people who are trying tp push militant sodomy on our culture today. I have been personally told by many blacks through the years. It's offensive  to them.

My question is this concerning LGBT movements.  What has been affective to bring them to repentance?
The same thing that has led all mankind to repentence over the last two thousand years.......the Truth!

And until you realize this, you will never reason with their arguments. People mired in sin and vice don't need/want to be coddled in their condition, they need to be told of the consequences of their actions, because the sinner already knows in his heart that what he's doing is wrong. He's doesn't need to be told "it's okay. cause Jesus loves you anyway".

You don't help people by lying to them.
 

ialmisry

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FinnJames said:
ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
minasoliman said:
Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
If you see evils in the LGBT community, I'd say you have to speak out about them--but you need to do so in love and choose your words carefully.

(Of course the flip side of this is that one has to be willing to listen when LGBT people point out the evils, or to use a milder term, failings they see in the church.)
refusing to redefine marriage is not a failing, let alone an evil.
I have stated before, though I can't remember whether in a public post or in a private one to someone other than you, that I do not see any way in which a same-sex couple could qualify for Orthodox marriage or fulfill the symbolic roles of Orthodox marriage partners. But this does not mean that I see no way in which same-sex couples could cohabit and still maintain the Church's approval.

I find the views you, Clemente and Charles Martel and to some extent wgw espouse on homosexuality neither loving nor anything other than a pedantic insistence on the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. I've been told that the devil will always present two opposing alternatives for us to choose from. Here I would say that the wanton abandon of the LGBT culture/Homofasciests you so rightly abhor is one side and the hard-necked clinging to what you take to be the position of Scripture/Tradition on homosexuality you are so unwilling to budge from is the other. There is a middle ground where at least dialogue and mutual understanding are possible, but you have so far shown yourselves to be unwilling to enter it.
Damn straight. What fellowship has light with darkness, Christ with Belial?



you have chosen your view that you cannot see no way in which same-sex couples could cohabit and still maintain the Church's approval, and your pedantic insistence on that spirit, rather than the Holy Spirit, and thus have relieved me of any concern for your opinion.
 

ialmisry

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Charles Martel said:
  In the US, one can arguably speak out on the evils of the LGBT lobby without incurring violent repercussions to those same people.
Actually, in the U.S. you will incur violent repurcussions FROM the LBGT lobby  when you openly speak against sodomy. And not only in the U.S. but other nations that have been "tolerant" of this unatural and demonic "agenda".

So places like in the East like Georgia and Russia are trying to prevent that from happening.

Charles Martel said:
Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
No , you would rather make them feel comfortable in their sin and take the high road of "charity" when in reality your not being charitable at all by being silent and indirectly confirming them in a sin that is the pathway to hell and destruction.

Having said that, would  you hesitate to speak the evils of abortion if the pro-"choice" crowd happened to be in the congregation?

Or any other movement that is directly antithetical to Christianity?

I smell double-standard from the PC christian as usual when it comes to sodomy.
Speaking of smell, I found it hysterical that they chose chocolate to show their "love."
 

Justin Kolodziej

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My wife would love that cake  8)
Reclaim the rainbow! taste the rainbow! oops, sorry, this isn't a skittles ad  :p

Seriously though, it looks to me (and I'm a moron, not a Church Father, so ignore if you like) that St. Paul says in the letter to the Romans that homosexuality is more a consequence of idolatry than its own sin. Maybe we should work on the disease rather than one symptom? (again, I'm a moron)

There's also the Iron Maiden solution: "Run to the hiiiiills! Run for your liiiiiiiiiifeeeeeeee!!!!!"
 

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Since discussion has paused, here's another colourful picture.

 

augustin717

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Justin Kolodziej said:
My wife would love that cake  8)
Reclaim the rainbow! taste the rainbow! oops, sorry, this isn't a skittles ad  :p

Seriously though, it looks to me (and I'm a moron, not a Church Father, so ignore if you like) that St. Paul says in the letter to the Romans that homosexuality is more a consequence of idolatry than its own sin. Maybe we should work on the disease rather than one symptom? (again, I'm a moron)

There's also the Iron Maiden solution: "Run to the hiiiiills! Run for your liiiiiiiiiifeeeeeeee!!!!!"
That's prob just wishful thinking on the part of St Paul . 0f course he's prob just rehashing some Jewish talking points against the Gentiles ; it makes some sense within that context, it doesn't make any sense to talk about the phenomenon of homosexuality in the context of a Christian society as  being a side effect of maybe symptom of "idolatry"; whose idolatry? Parents'? The homosexual?  That's just typical Jewish polemics against the Gentiles .
And if you're gonna take Paul's argument seriously, don't metaphorize " idolatry" but note that Paul uses the word in a very concrete way, as a synonym for "polytheism".
 

ialmisry

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FinnJames said:
Since discussion has paused, here's another colourful picture.
answer in black and white
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69821.msg1418556/topicseen.html#msg1418556
 

Clemente

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Charles Martel said:
A voice crying in the wilderness. Be forewarned: the Pink Mafia is going to go ballistic.
Of course they will, that is their typical reaction to anyone that defies them because the sodomite knows in his heart what he/she is doing is really, really wrong. Because they are controlled by their passions that are disordered, they are neurotic and slaves to some kind of narcissistic  fantasy that the whole world is against them because of their behavior, they feel persecuted and discriminated against by straight or "normal" people who are naturally appalled by their degradation and sin of their sodomical lust and "lifestyle". And they don't want to be told by anyone that what their doing is wrong, not even by the clergy or the doctrines of their own Church or religion. They will go to any length to justify their abominations and demand "acceptance" from anyone and everyone.

Like attack this good priest's name who dares to speak the truth on the reality of the LBGT agenda.
Wow, that sounds so intollerant. That can't really be Orthodox teaching! Oh, wait...

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down!  Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic….. So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV).

I just hope that those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy will understand that a certain fringe group here on OC.net is denigrating a much-loved Orthodox priest in good standing because he had sufficient love for God and his fellow man to stand up to the LGBT lobby.
 

FinnJames

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ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
Since discussion has paused, here's another colourful picture.
answer in black and white
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69821.msg1418556/topicseen.html#msg1418556
Sorry, ialmisry, but I don't have access to the private forums/fora.

Anyway, you indicate in a rather garbled post (perhaps written in anger?) earlier in the thread
ialmisry said:
you have chosen your view that you cannot see no way in which same-sex couples could cohabit and still maintain the Church's approval, and your pedantic insistence on that spirit, rather than the Holy Spirit, and thus have relieved me of any concern for your opinion.
that you aren't concerned with my opinion because I think same-sex cohabitation, not marriage, ought to be possible without incurring the Church's censure, so I won't trouble you further by conversing with you here.
 

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Wow. These threads are always so exhausting. Minasoliman as usual asks the compassionate questions. I will answer from my own experience. It helped to know what the church believes, as much as it stung. But I was never, never helped by angry denunciation, largely because I never believed those doing the denouncing actually gave a monkey's about me personally. It always seemed more about their own righteousness than lifting me out of my sin. But that is not to say that the compassionate and clear explanation of church teaching is, of itself, judgemental. It took a while, and lots of bad decisions on my part before I came to an understanding of that traditional teaching in such a way that meant I felt I could live a life congruent with Christianity. But that had to come from me, rather than externally imposed, iyswim. It helped enormously that I was blessed with good, kind Christian friends who didn't focus on one of my many sins to the exclusion of a)other sins I need as much help with and b)the fact that I am a whole human being.

I have attempted to word this post as carefully as possible to avoid offence and I apologise in advance if I have hurt anyone with my words, I just offer my experience as a constructive part of the conversation.
 

augustin717

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Clemente said:
Charles Martel said:
A voice crying in the wilderness. Be forewarned: the Pink Mafia is going to go ballistic.
Of course they will, that is their typical reaction to anyone that defies them because the sodomite knows in his heart what he/she is doing is really, really wrong. Because they are controlled by their passions that are disordered, they are neurotic and slaves to some kind of narcissistic  fantasy that the whole world is against them because of their behavior, they feel persecuted and discriminated against by straight or "normal" people who are naturally appalled by their degradation and sin of their sodomical lust and "lifestyle". And they don't want to be told by anyone that what their doing is wrong, not even by the clergy or the doctrines of their own Church or religion. They will go to any length to justify their abominations and demand "acceptance" from anyone and everyone.

Like attack this good priest's name who dares to speak the truth on the reality of the LBGT agenda.
Wow, that sounds so intollerant. That can't really be Orthodox teaching! Oh, wait...

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down!  Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic….. So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV).

I just hope that those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy will understand that a certain fringe group here on OC.net is denigrating a much-loved Orthodox priest in good standing because he had sufficient love for God and his fellow man to stand up to the LGBT lobby.
when are you gonna quote St John Chrysostom on the Jews?
 

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FinnJames said:
ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
Since discussion has paused, here's another colourful picture.
answer in black and white
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69821.msg1418556/topicseen.html#msg1418556
Sorry, ialmisry, but I don't have access to the private forums/fora.

Anyway, you indicate in a rather garbled post (perhaps written in anger?) earlier in the thread
ialmisry said:
you have chosen your view that you cannot see no way in which same-sex couples could cohabit and still maintain the Church's approval, and your pedantic insistence on that spirit, rather than the Holy Spirit, and thus have relieved me of any concern for your opinion.
that you aren't concerned with my opinion because I think same-sex cohabitation, not marriage, ought to be possible without incurring the Church's censure, so I won't trouble you further by conversing with you here.
FinnJames,

I get where you are coming from and I wouldn't dream of opining about your particular situation. God bless you and forgive me, a sinner.

I simply ask that you consider that Father Trenham is addressing an entirely different subject--that of the radical LGBT movement--and that he is perfectly justified in labelling it "homofascist". Those who have criticised him in this thread have mostly done so not because of his tone, about which reasonable Orthodox may disagree, but rather his subject.

In doing so, they have done him a great disservice.
 

ialmisry

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FinnJames said:
ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
Since discussion has paused, here's another colourful picture.
answer in black and white
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69821.msg1418556/topicseen.html#msg1418556
Sorry, ialmisry, but I don't have access to the private forums/fora.
the Mor has spoken.

FinnJames said:
Anyway, you indicate in a rather garbled post
no, it was clear. That you don't like it doesn't change that. Or are you referring to your own words, which I quoted back to you?

FinnJames said:
(perhaps written in anger?)
are you projecting there?

FinnJames said:
earlier in the thread
ialmisry said:
you have chosen your view that you cannot see no way in which same-sex couples could cohabit and still maintain the Church's approval, and your pedantic insistence on that spirit, rather than the Holy Spirit, and thus have relieved me of any concern for your opinion.
that you aren't concerned with my opinion because I think same-sex cohabitation, not marriage, ought to be possible without incurring the Church's censure, so I won't trouble you further by conversing with you here.
cohabitation outside marriage is fornication, whatever the mix of sexes, and censured by the Church rightly as such.

No trouble at all.
 

ialmisry

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augustin717 said:
Clemente said:
Charles Martel said:
A voice crying in the wilderness. Be forewarned: the Pink Mafia is going to go ballistic.
Of course they will, that is their typical reaction to anyone that defies them because the sodomite knows in his heart what he/she is doing is really, really wrong. Because they are controlled by their passions that are disordered, they are neurotic and slaves to some kind of narcissistic  fantasy that the whole world is against them because of their behavior, they feel persecuted and discriminated against by straight or "normal" people who are naturally appalled by their degradation and sin of their sodomical lust and "lifestyle". And they don't want to be told by anyone that what their doing is wrong, not even by the clergy or the doctrines of their own Church or religion. They will go to any length to justify their abominations and demand "acceptance" from anyone and everyone.

Like attack this good priest's name who dares to speak the truth on the reality of the LBGT agenda.
Wow, that sounds so intollerant. That can't really be Orthodox teaching! Oh, wait...

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down!  Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic….. So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV).

I just hope that those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy will understand that a certain fringe group here on OC.net is denigrating a much-loved Orthodox priest in good standing because he had sufficient love for God and his fellow man to stand up to the LGBT lobby.
when are you gonna quote St John Chrysostom on the Jews?
you'd quote him on the wealthy, so why not?
 

Clemente

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augustin717 said:
Clemente said:
Charles Martel said:
A voice crying in the wilderness. Be forewarned: the Pink Mafia is going to go ballistic.
Of course they will, that is their typical reaction to anyone that defies them because the sodomite knows in his heart what he/she is doing is really, really wrong. Because they are controlled by their passions that are disordered, they are neurotic and slaves to some kind of narcissistic  fantasy that the whole world is against them because of their behavior, they feel persecuted and discriminated against by straight or "normal" people who are naturally appalled by their degradation and sin of their sodomical lust and "lifestyle". And they don't want to be told by anyone that what their doing is wrong, not even by the clergy or the doctrines of their own Church or religion. They will go to any length to justify their abominations and demand "acceptance" from anyone and everyone.

Like attack this good priest's name who dares to speak the truth on the reality of the LBGT agenda.
Wow, that sounds so intollerant. That can't really be Orthodox teaching! Oh, wait...

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down!  Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic….. So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV).

I just hope that those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy will understand that a certain fringe group here on OC.net is denigrating a much-loved Orthodox priest in good standing because he had sufficient love for God and his fellow man to stand up to the LGBT lobby.
when are you gonna quote St John Chrysostom on the Jews?
If his writing on the Jews leads you to reject all his writings, then I hope you don't attend Orthodox liturgy.

Would you like that I cite other Fathers here?
 

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Eruvande said:
Wow. These threads are always so exhausting. Minasoliman as usual asks the compassionate questions. I will answer from my own experience. It helped to know what the church believes, as much as it stung. But I was never, never helped by angry denunciation, largely because I never believed those doing the denouncing actually gave a monkey's about me personally. It always seemed more about their own righteousness than lifting me out of my sin. But that is not to say that the compassionate and clear explanation of church teaching is, of itself, judgemental. It took a while, and lots of bad decisions on my part before I came to an understanding of that traditional teaching in such a way that meant I felt I could live a life congruent with Christianity. But that had to come from me, rather than externally imposed, iyswim. It helped enormously that I was blessed with good, kind Christian friends who didn't focus on one of my many sins to the exclusion of a)other sins I need as much help with and b)the fact that I am a whole human being.

I have attempted to word this post as carefully as possible to avoid offence and I apologise in advance if I have hurt anyone with my words, I just offer my experience as a constructive part of the conversation.
iyswim?
 

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augustin717 said:
Clemente said:
Charles Martel said:
A voice crying in the wilderness. Be forewarned: the Pink Mafia is going to go ballistic.
Of course they will, that is their typical reaction to anyone that defies them because the sodomite knows in his heart what he/she is doing is really, really wrong. Because they are controlled by their passions that are disordered, they are neurotic and slaves to some kind of narcissistic  fantasy that the whole world is against them because of their behavior, they feel persecuted and discriminated against by straight or "normal" people who are naturally appalled by their degradation and sin of their sodomical lust and "lifestyle". And they don't want to be told by anyone that what their doing is wrong, not even by the clergy or the doctrines of their own Church or religion. They will go to any length to justify their abominations and demand "acceptance" from anyone and everyone.

Like attack this good priest's name who dares to speak the truth on the reality of the LBGT agenda.
Wow, that sounds so intollerant. That can't really be Orthodox teaching! Oh, wait...

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down!  Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic….. So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV).

I just hope that those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy will understand that a certain fringe group here on OC.net is denigrating a much-loved Orthodox priest in good standing because he had sufficient love for God and his fellow man to stand up to the LGBT lobby.
when are you gonna quote St John Chrysostom on the Jews?
What's "the jews" have to do with his post?

Stick to the topic at hand.

 

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ialmisry said:
Eruvande said:
Wow. These threads are always so exhausting. Minasoliman as usual asks the compassionate questions. I will answer from my own experience. It helped to know what the church believes, as much as it stung. But I was never, never helped by angry denunciation, largely because I never believed those doing the denouncing actually gave a monkey's about me personally. It always seemed more about their own righteousness than lifting me out of my sin. But that is not to say that the compassionate and clear explanation of church teaching is, of itself, judgemental. It took a while, and lots of bad decisions on my part before I came to an understanding of that traditional teaching in such a way that meant I felt I could live a life congruent with Christianity. But that had to come from me, rather than externally imposed, iyswim. It helped enormously that I was blessed with good, kind Christian friends who didn't focus on one of my many sins to the exclusion of a)other sins I need as much help with and b)the fact that I am a whole human being.

I have attempted to word this post as carefully as possible to avoid offence and I apologise in advance if I have hurt anyone with my words, I just offer my experience as a constructive part of the conversation.
iyswim?
Sorry, too used to internet shorthand. "If you see what I mean"
 

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Clemente said:
augustin717 said:
Clemente said:
Charles Martel said:
A voice crying in the wilderness. Be forewarned: the Pink Mafia is going to go ballistic.
Of course they will, that is their typical reaction to anyone that defies them because the sodomite knows in his heart what he/she is doing is really, really wrong. Because they are controlled by their passions that are disordered, they are neurotic and slaves to some kind of narcissistic  fantasy that the whole world is against them because of their behavior, they feel persecuted and discriminated against by straight or "normal" people who are naturally appalled by their degradation and sin of their sodomical lust and "lifestyle". And they don't want to be told by anyone that what their doing is wrong, not even by the clergy or the doctrines of their own Church or religion. They will go to any length to justify their abominations and demand "acceptance" from anyone and everyone.

Like attack this good priest's name who dares to speak the truth on the reality of the LBGT agenda.
Wow, that sounds so intollerant. That can't really be Orthodox teaching! Oh, wait...

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down!  Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic….. So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV).

I just hope that those unfamiliar with Orthodoxy will understand that a certain fringe group here on OC.net is denigrating a much-loved Orthodox priest in good standing because he had sufficient love for God and his fellow man to stand up to the LGBT lobby.
when are you gonna quote St John Chrysostom on the Jews?
If his writing on the Jews leads you to reject all his writings, then I hope you don't attend Orthodox liturgy.

Would you like that I cite other Fathers here?
I believe to some people, SJC is an "antisemite" as well as "homphobic".

Well, you might as well include St. Paul, the writers of the Gospels and a majority of the church Fathers and Saints as well.

You know, Christianity would really be  kewl without all those old Jewish guys coming down so hard on sexual deviancy.

Christian morals and ethics are soooo outdated. ::)
 

FinnJames

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Clemente said:
FinnJames said:
ialmisry said:
FinnJames said:
Since discussion has paused, here's another colourful picture.
answer in black and white
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,69821.msg1418556/topicseen.html#msg1418556
Sorry, ialmisry, but I don't have access to the private forums/fora.

Anyway, you indicate in a rather garbled post (perhaps written in anger?) earlier in the thread
ialmisry said:
you have chosen your view that you cannot see no way in which same-sex couples could cohabit and still maintain the Church's approval, and your pedantic insistence on that spirit, rather than the Holy Spirit, and thus have relieved me of any concern for your opinion.
that you aren't concerned with my opinion because I think same-sex cohabitation, not marriage, ought to be possible without incurring the Church's censure, so I won't trouble you further by conversing with you here.
FinnJames,

I get where you are coming from and I wouldn't dream of opining about your particular situation. God bless you and forgive me, a sinner.

I simply ask that you consider that Father Trenham is addressing an entirely different subject--that of the radical LGBT movement--and that he is perfectly justified in labelling it "homofascist". Those who have criticised him in this thread have mostly done so not because of his tone, about which reasonable Orthodox may disagree, but rather his subject.

In doing so, they have done him a great disservice.
If you look back over my previous posts in this thread, you will see that their tone is more to defend Fr Trenham than to criticise him, though in the video in question I do find a few inaccuracies in what he says about Judaism and Buddhism and a bit of exaggeration in what he fears about 'homofascism', none of which I brought up in any of my posts. Being something of an Orthodoxy-on-the-web addict, I'm already familiar with several of Fr Trenham's other videos and find many of them helpful. Homosexual (but not practicing sodomy) and same-sex partnered though I may be, I'm not one of the loathed Pink Mafia.

Anyway, I appreciate your kind post. Let's include each other in our prayers tonight.
 

ialmisry

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Eruvande said:
ialmisry said:
Eruvande said:
Wow. These threads are always so exhausting. Minasoliman as usual asks the compassionate questions. I will answer from my own experience. It helped to know what the church believes, as much as it stung. But I was never, never helped by angry denunciation, largely because I never believed those doing the denouncing actually gave a monkey's about me personally. It always seemed more about their own righteousness than lifting me out of my sin. But that is not to say that the compassionate and clear explanation of church teaching is, of itself, judgemental. It took a while, and lots of bad decisions on my part before I came to an understanding of that traditional teaching in such a way that meant I felt I could live a life congruent with Christianity. But that had to come from me, rather than externally imposed, iyswim. It helped enormously that I was blessed with good, kind Christian friends who didn't focus on one of my many sins to the exclusion of a)other sins I need as much help with and b)the fact that I am a whole human being.

I have attempted to word this post as carefully as possible to avoid offence and I apologise in advance if I have hurt anyone with my words, I just offer my experience as a constructive part of the conversation.
iyswim?
Sorry, too used to internet shorthand. "If you see what I mean"
Ah, thanks. And I see.
 

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I believe to some people, SJC is an "antisemite" as well as "homphobic".

Well, you might as well include St. Paul, the writers of the Gospels and a majority of the church Fathers and Saints as well.

[/quote]

That's why religious fundamentalism is so perverse.  There's a lot we should not emulate in the Bible or in the Church Fathers.
 

minasoliman

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Charles Martel said:
  In the US, one can arguably speak out on the evils of the LGBT lobby without incurring violent repercussions to those same people.
Actually, in the U.S. you will incur violent repurcussions FROM the LBGT lobby  when you openly speak against sodomy. And not only in the U.S. but other nations that have been "tolerant" of this unatural and demonic "agenda".

So places like in the East like Georgia and Russia are trying to prevent that from happening.

Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
No , you would rather make them feel comfortable in their sin and take the high road of "charity" when in reality your not being charitable at all by being silent and indirectly confirming them in a sin that is the pathway to hell and destruction.

Having said that, would  you hesitate to speak the evils of abortion if the pro-"choice" crowd happened to be in the congregation?

Or any other movement that is directly antithetical to Christianity?

I smell double-standard from the PC christian as usual when it comes to sodomy.

There is an example of a (former?) lesbian woman, Rosaria Butterfield, who upon having a relationship with a Methodist parish was able to repent and leave her past. As far as I am aware, that parish was never vociferous as Fr. Josiah.  Unless Fr. Josiah has people from the LGBT community he converted, it seems to me he's more of a political activist than a prie
Key sentence. At any rate, is now Christ a political activist because he might not have had converts from the opposite end of the Gospel message? So you need "converts" just to justify speaking the Truth?

Using your analogy on Nazis, let's consider an actual example of a political activist in the past, Martin Luther King.  I have never listened to him bashing against the white man, but rather looking forward to resist injustice while maintaining a love for your enemy.  Now, here's the amazing thing.  He's the minority.  We are the majority as you admit.  How much more then should we desire to speak out against whatever laws may do while we also maintain the desire to save ALL of God's children!
Hoorible example. MLK was attempting to unite people divded by race/culture for the right reasons, even from a Christian perspective. He was trying to overcome a prejudice system of Jim Crowe and cultural racism, not encourge people in their sin of sodomy and the unatural LBGT "lifestyle", you are comparing apples and oranges.

I think it's an insult to blacks whenever they bring up their struggle for equality in the South decades ago to the people who are trying tp push militant sodomy on our culture today. I have been personally told by many blacks through the years. It's offensive  to them.

My question is this concerning LGBT movements.  What has been affective to bring them to repentance?
The same thing that has led all mankind to repentence over the last two thousand years.......the Truth!

And until you realize this, you will never reason with their arguments. People mired in sin and vice don't need/want to be coddled in their condition, they need to be told of the consequences of their actions, because the sinner already knows in his heart that what he's doing is wrong. He's doesn't need to be told "it's okay. cause Jesus loves you anyway".

You don't help people by lying to them.
I was a little tempted not to reply to your post because I am trying my best not to reply to an angry post.  However, I will try my best to address your concerns with a concern from personal experience.

I do not think I can dare to confess my own shortcomings here publicly because I am not comfortable sharing my own sins outside the confines of my closest friends or spiritual father.  However, I do like to say that I think of the sins and temptations that I struggle against, and I sympathize with those who struggle against other passions that I cannot relate to.  I can make an analogy to my own struggle, but to empathize, it is difficult.  I do have this.  That because I think of my own sins, my approach to others who have different shortcomings than mine is one of compassion, not of judgment and condemnation.

In the Coptic book of hours, no matter which hour we pray, there is a concluding prayer:

Have mercy on us, O God, and have mercy on us, who, at all times and in every hour, in heaven and on earth, is worshipped and glorified, Christ our God, the good, the long suffering, the abundant in mercy, and the great in compassion, who loves the righteous and has mercy on the sinners of whom I am chief; who does not wish the death of the sinner but rather that he returns and lives, who calls all to salvation for the promise of the blessings to come.

Lord receive from us our prayers in this hour and in every hour. Ease our life and guide us to fulfill Your commandments. Sanctify our spirits. Cleanse our bodies. Conduct our thoughts. Purify our intentions. Heal our diseases. Forgive our sins. Deliver us from every evil grief and distress of heart. Surround us by Your holy angels, that, by their camp, we may be guarded and guided, and attain the unity of faith, and the knowledge of Your imperceptible and infinite glory. For You are blessed forever. Amen.


I have learned that despite my own ideal wishes of how to live my life, I have fallen in sins I have not thought I would fall into.  Furthermore, I have learned not to trust myself for tomorrow thinking that I would even dare to have the confidence I would avoid any other temptation that may befall me by my own pride.  Recently I was able to read these words of St. Paul in a new light:

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load. (Galatians 6:1-5)

I have learned thus far in my life that my temptations will not leave me.  Rather than pray to God that they may go away, I pray that God may give me the strength to stand diligent, to be always watchful over the doors of my heart, not to slumber, but to stand firm.  Even though I may not be able to empathize with LGBT temptations, I do have something in common with LGBT's, that I stand with them in risk that I may not inherit the kingdom (cf. 1 Cor. 6:7-10).  I have made the list of sins along with homosexuals to which I stand in judgment of not being able to inherit the kingdom!  Such a feeling changes my way of approaching this than someone who probably does fall in any of this list in verses 7-10.

Perhaps, Fr. Josiah is much more righteous than I am.  Perhaps Charles you are much more righteous than I am.  I am nothing but filth.  I am nothing as St. Paul said.  I have in the past looked at others who fell into sin and judged them, and yet now I fell into the same temptation.

When I saw what happened in Georgia some time ago in their violent protests, I thought to myself how sad!  Why is it that we cannot have a spirit of gentleness to bring such children of God into salvation with us?  Even if I am sinless, should I stand firm to stir up violent men to persecute sinners and heretics in their own lands?  This is where I am uneasy.  I deserve death and hellfire for my sins, and yet I live in freedom in this country that no one would persecute me.  The holy and righteous and sinless martyrs would look forward without grudging and with joy towards any persecution that comes upon them, while we complain that somehow we lose some of our own freedoms? (<--rhetorical question)  What a paradoxical world and mindset we live in!  It is filled with mystery that I cannot put together in words.  I can only stand with awe, and I feel my mind is clear enough to be at peace with this paradox, rather than easily condemn sinners with gusto and attach my anger to an idea to endorse governments to even punish sodomites and adulterers (and let us add heretics and pagans!).  Meanwhile, "God demonstrated His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8 )  That should move us to tears and compassion.

Like I said earlier, we seem to lack a particular sense of discernment in the way we approach this.  It is discernment in our actions we need to learn.  It is one of the most under-studied virtues we do not seem to recognize.  I have even butted heads with you on how to approach Muslims in another thread, let alone LGBT individuals in this thread, to discern when to be angry and when to approach with gentleness.

My mindset is that I am the worst of sinners, but this burden of sin that LGBT people have I do not.  I wish to approach them with a spirit of gentleness and I want to learn how to carry their burdens with them.  Maybe, they too have a strength that I do not have and will carry with me as a brother to me a burden I am unable to carry alone, and thus together we would "fulfill the law of Christ".  That is the way I desire to approach this.

Lastly, my mentioning of MLK was to compare him to what an ideal Orthodox Christian should be.  I did not compare him to the LGBT movement, but rather how we can respond to LGBT by using his methods in standing up against Jim Crow advocates, if you want to at least think of a way to protest governmental injustice towards free religion, and not like the violence of the Georgians or Ugandans.  I hope I could clear that misunderstanding to you.

Forgive me!
 

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I've come to this quite late. Fr Josiah made an excellent speech but I think he should not have quoted the Koran or the Dalai Lama. Anyhow, the man is from the liberal wing of the Church - Ancient Faith etc so I don't see what the fuss is about. Isn't it really obvious (someone hit me with a mallet?!) that the politicised sodomite movement is 100% bent on the destruction of the Church? The Devil has chosen this tactic for reasons which are displayed in this 'ere forum.

 

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What is the Orthodox Church of Finland? Is it something to do with Moominland where everyone is gay and the sun always shines ? This is a funny old website !
 

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Ilyin said:
Isn't it really obvious (someone hit me with a mallet?!) that the politicised sodomite movement is 100% bent on the destruction of the Church?
On a second reading, I assume your parenthesis is actually an explanation for your outlook.
 

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minasoliman said:
... I have made the list of sins along with homosexuals to which I stand in judgment of not being able to inherit the kingdom!  Such a feeling changes my way of approaching this than someone who probably does fall in any of this list in verses 7-10.

Perhaps, Fr. Josiah is much more righteous than I am.  Perhaps Charles you are much more righteous than I am.  I am nothing but filth.  I am nothing as St. Paul said.  ...
The bolded should say "than someone who probably does NOT fall in any of this list"
 

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minasoliman said:
Charles Martel said:
  In the US, one can arguably speak out on the evils of the LGBT lobby without incurring violent repercussions to those same people.
Actually, in the U.S. you will incur violent repurcussions FROM the LBGT lobby  when you openly speak against sodomy. And not only in the U.S. but other nations that have been "tolerant" of this unatural and demonic "agenda".

So places like in the East like Georgia and Russia are trying to prevent that from happening.

Sometimes even in the US, there might be a parish where a gay person is trying to figure out his life in repentance.  If I speak about the evils of the LGBT community, will I inadvertently ostracize this person? 
No , you would rather make them feel comfortable in their sin and take the high road of "charity" when in reality your not being charitable at all by being silent and indirectly confirming them in a sin that is the pathway to hell and destruction.

Having said that, would  you hesitate to speak the evils of abortion if the pro-"choice" crowd happened to be in the congregation?

Or any other movement that is directly antithetical to Christianity?

I smell double-standard from the PC christian as usual when it comes to sodomy.

There is an example of a (former?) lesbian woman, Rosaria Butterfield, who upon having a relationship with a Methodist parish was able to repent and leave her past. As far as I am aware, that parish was never vociferous as Fr. Josiah.  Unless Fr. Josiah has people from the LGBT community he converted, it seems to me he's more of a political activist than a prie
Key sentence. At any rate, is now Christ a political activist because he might not have had converts from the opposite end of the Gospel message? So you need "converts" just to justify speaking the Truth?

Using your analogy on Nazis, let's consider an actual example of a political activist in the past, Martin Luther King.  I have never listened to him bashing against the white man, but rather looking forward to resist injustice while maintaining a love for your enemy.  Now, here's the amazing thing.  He's the minority.  We are the majority as you admit.  How much more then should we desire to speak out against whatever laws may do while we also maintain the desire to save ALL of God's children!
Hoorible example. MLK was attempting to unite people divded by race/culture for the right reasons, even from a Christian perspective. He was trying to overcome a prejudice system of Jim Crowe and cultural racism, not encourge people in their sin of sodomy and the unatural LBGT "lifestyle", you are comparing apples and oranges.

I think it's an insult to blacks whenever they bring up their struggle for equality in the South decades ago to the people who are trying tp push militant sodomy on our culture today. I have been personally told by many blacks through the years. It's offensive  to them.

My question is this concerning LGBT movements.  What has been affective to bring them to repentance?
The same thing that has led all mankind to repentence over the last two thousand years.......the Truth!

And until you realize this, you will never reason with their arguments. People mired in sin and vice don't need/want to be coddled in their condition, they need to be told of the consequences of their actions, because the sinner already knows in his heart that what he's doing is wrong. He's doesn't need to be told "it's okay. cause Jesus loves you anyway".

You don't help people by lying to them.
I was a little tempted not to reply to your post because I am trying my best not to reply to an angry post.  However, I will try my best to address your concerns with a concern from personal experience.

I do not think I can dare to confess my own shortcomings here publicly because I am not comfortable sharing my own sins outside the confines of my closest friends or spiritual father.  However, I do like to say that I think of the sins and temptations that I struggle against, and I sympathize with those who struggle against other passions that I cannot relate to.  I can make an analogy to my own struggle, but to empathize, it is difficult.  I do have this.  That because I think of my own sins, my approach to others who have different shortcomings than mine is one of compassion, not of judgment and condemnation.

In the Coptic book of hours, no matter which hour we pray, there is a concluding prayer:

Have mercy on us, O God, and have mercy on us, who, at all times and in every hour, in heaven and on earth, is worshipped and glorified, Christ our God, the good, the long suffering, the abundant in mercy, and the great in compassion, who loves the righteous and has mercy on the sinners of whom I am chief; who does not wish the death of the sinner but rather that he returns and lives, who calls all to salvation for the promise of the blessings to come.

Lord receive from us our prayers in this hour and in every hour. Ease our life and guide us to fulfill Your commandments. Sanctify our spirits. Cleanse our bodies. Conduct our thoughts. Purify our intentions. Heal our diseases. Forgive our sins. Deliver us from every evil grief and distress of heart. Surround us by Your holy angels, that, by their camp, we may be guarded and guided, and attain the unity of faith, and the knowledge of Your imperceptible and infinite glory. For You are blessed forever. Amen.


I have learned that despite my own ideal wishes of how to live my life, I have fallen in sins I have not thought I would fall into.  Furthermore, I have learned not to trust myself for tomorrow thinking that I would even dare to have the confidence I would avoid any other temptation that may befall me by my own pride.  Recently I was able to read these words of St. Paul in a new light:

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For each one shall bear his own load. (Galatians 6:1-5)

I have learned thus far in my life that my temptations will not leave me.  Rather than pray to God that they may go away, I pray that God may give me the strength to stand diligent, to be always watchful over the doors of my heart, not to slumber, but to stand firm.  Even though I may not be able to empathize with LGBT temptations, I do have something in common with LGBT's, that I stand with them in risk that I may not inherit the kingdom (cf. 1 Cor. 6:7-10).  I have made the list of sins along with homosexuals to which I stand in judgment of not being able to inherit the kingdom!  Such a feeling changes my way of approaching this than someone who probably does fall in any of this list in verses 7-10.

Perhaps, Fr. Josiah is much more righteous than I am.  Perhaps Charles you are much more righteous than I am.  I am nothing but filth.  I am nothing as St. Paul said.  I have in the past looked at others who fell into sin and judged them, and yet now I fell into the same temptation.

When I saw what happened in Georgia some time ago in their violent protests, I thought to myself how sad!  Why is it that we cannot have a spirit of gentleness to bring such children of God into salvation with us?  Even if I am sinless, should I stand firm to stir up violent men to persecute sinners and heretics in their own lands?  This is where I am uneasy.  I deserve death and hellfire for my sins, and yet I live in freedom in this country that no one would persecute me.  The holy and righteous and sinless martyrs would look forward without grudging and with joy towards any persecution that comes upon them, while we complain that somehow we lose some of our own freedoms? (<--rhetorical question)  What a paradoxical world and mindset we live in!  It is filled with mystery that I cannot put together in words.  I can only stand with awe, and I feel my mind is clear enough to be at peace with this paradox, rather than easily condemn sinners with gusto and attach my anger to an idea to endorse governments to even punish sodomites and adulterers (and let us add heretics and pagans!).  Meanwhile, "God demonstrated His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8 )  That should move us to tears and compassion.

Like I said earlier, we seem to lack a particular sense of discernment in the way we approach this.  It is discernment in our actions we need to learn.  It is one of the most under-studied virtues we do not seem to recognize.  I have even butted heads with you on how to approach Muslims in another thread, let alone LGBT individuals in this thread, to discern when to be angry and when to approach with gentleness.

My mindset is that I am the worst of sinners, but this burden of sin that LGBT people have I do not.  I wish to approach them with a spirit of gentleness and I want to learn how to carry their burdens with them.  Maybe, they too have a strength that I do not have and will carry with me as a brother to me a burden I am unable to carry alone, and thus together we would "fulfill the law of Christ".  That is the way I desire to approach this.

Lastly, my mentioning of MLK was to compare him to what an ideal Orthodox Christian should be.  I did not compare him to the LGBT movement, but rather how we can respond to LGBT by using his methods in standing up against Jim Crow advocates, if you want to at least think of a way to protest governmental injustice towards free religion, and not like the violence of the Georgians or Ugandans.  I hope I could clear that misunderstanding to you.

Forgive me!
Mina, I want to thank you for raising an interesting and valid point within this thread, and most especially, for doing so in a manner that showed proper respect to the dignity of the priestly office of Fr. Trenham.  I do agree with you that in approaching the LGBT movement, gentleness is required, although I would consider that Fr. Trenham was not doing that, and I expect we are not wuite on the same page regarding the Georgia situation et cetera, but I do want to thank you for this point.  I certainly agree with it as far as pastoral care is concerned.
 
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