Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

Mor Ephrem

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Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
Maybe it's just about the pink liturgical hats and male bonding.  Did you ever think about that?!
 

wgw

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Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty.  I certainly would not throw rocks; if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
 

mike

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wgw said:
Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty.  I certainly would not throw rocks; if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
lmgtfy







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6q2uQQUbzs

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Or is it as usually you roll?
 

augustin717

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wgw said:
Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
I doubt you could throw  a boa feather, let alone rocks, mister!
 

augustin717

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wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
That's a bit of a foolish idea as they tend to think bout gays in the most stereotypical ways in those parts of the world. You don't wanna risk a qui pro quo.
 

Mor Ephrem

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mike said:
wgw said:
Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty.  I certainly would not throw rocks; if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
lmgtfy







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6q2uQQUbzs

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Or is it as usually you roll?
Perhaps you can highlight where in these photos/videos an actual priest is throwing rocks. 
 

Daedelus1138

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Saying that homosexual desire is a sin seems very harsh.  People aren't responsible for their desires or attractions.  To many gay people, saying that being gay is inherently sinful is judgmental because it's damning them from birth.  I've talked to gay people that knew they were gay from a very young age, so young they didn't even know what sex was.  They just imagined when they grew up, they would marry a man (and my one friend who was like this was raised a Pentecostal, so it is not an idea that reconciled easy with his religion).  They were naïve children, but that is what it is like to be gay.  It is not a choice.  The Orthodox Church can teach what it wants about homosexual acts, but its very harsh to say that people created in the image of God are damned from birth.  I thought Orthodox do not believe in Calvinism?
 

FatherGiryus

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Being somewhat familiar with the typical stand of the subject of the OP, I have some observations:

1) Yes, there is undoubtedly a political agenda with 'homosexuality' and its marketing.  However, I think the politics of it are different for different people, and it isn't a monolithic movement.

2) In California, the relationship between liberal minority groups and liberal whites has been largely about a trade-off.  The minority communities here are notoriously homophobic, but turn a blind eye in exchange the 'recognition' of their agenda items.  Homosexuality is mostly the arena of the elites.

3) I don't believe that anyone in the modern Orthodox world, including Fr. Josiah, has been able to explain the Orthodox concepts surrounding the modern idea of 'homosexuality.'  My opinion is that, so long as he and others choose to accept the premise and attempt to fight the usual 'culture war', he will continue to be ignored and our Church will continue to lose public debates.

4) I don't know that many priests who would throw rocks.  It gets their hands dirty.  When I was in seminary, I once was subjected to a lecture by a priest who insisted that we all make sure to routinely clean our nails, because people won't want to kiss our hands if they look dirty.  In my case, I've taken to wearing gloves...  ;)
 

Mor Ephrem

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Daedelus1138 said:
The Orthodox Church can teach what it wants about homosexual acts, but its very harsh to say that people created in the image of God are damned from birth.  I thought Orthodox do not believe in Calvinism?
We don't and we don't. 
 

Iconodule

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Daedelus1138 said:
Saying that homosexual desire is a sin seems very harsh.
I'm not sure where you see the teaching that they are damned from birth.

The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful. I think Orthodox pastors are generally awakening to the understanding that it is not something to be switched on or off. We don't pick all our temptations, but we can choose how to respond to them. In this scenario, the Church is called to accept these people lovingly and aid them in their spiritual struggle, counseling them to celibacy. I think such an attitude is workable without the virulent homophobia that singles this sin out as the downfall of civilization. I myself have taken and struggled with this conception.

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am  beginning to think this position too is untenable. I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love. 
 

FinnJames

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Mor Ephrem said:
Perhaps you can highlight where in these photos/videos an actual priest is throwing rocks.
According to the Irish Times (18.May.2013) article "Crowd led by priests attacks gay rights marchers in Georgia", from which one of the photos was taken, it was "the masses of mostly young men [who] threw rocks and eggs at the demonstrators".
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/crowd-led-by-priests-attacks-gay-rights-marchers-in-georgia-1.1398862

This isn't to suggest that throwing rocks is justified, only that it wasn't priests who were doing it.

 

Georgios Scholarios

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The issue is not whether the Fathers thought social justice was a good thing, they obviously thought it was, but whether it was something that the government should enforce. To me, it seems like the Fathers for the most part thought that the state should be based on Christian morals, but some added the point that this would be done unless it would bring about certain (worse) evils, e.g., St. Augustine saying in <i>De Ordine</i> that prostitution should remain legal so the world wouldn't burn with lust. In order to decide whether regulating the market should be allowed therefore comes down to what will be lost.

Note, however, that (like I quoted above) St. Augustine condemns the position that the government should allow whatever as long as it didn't hurt anybody or anybody's property. Furthermore, when the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church have spoken about economic matters recently, they have both condemned unrestricted capitalism. Finally, it just seems hypocritical for one to think the government should force gay people to be moral, but not businessmen to be.

I don't want to say anything about the benefits or drawbacks about capitalism, since I'm not an expert, and since this is not the politics section, I just wanted to give my opinion about how compatible it is with what some religious authorities have said.

P.S. I totally agree with the Orthodox position, which is not that homosexual passions are sinful, but that certain sexual acts are (anal sex with one's wife is considered just as bad - usually worse - than the same with another man). But the way the Orthodox Church expresses it today (and I think the Catholic Church too) is hardly going to convince anyone, since it is not usually done with much compassion, and often refuses to mention that celibacy is actually considered a worthier state than marriage that everybody is called to consider (Matt 19:12). The emphasis on the blessedness of celibacy is so weak in churches that it is no wonder why gay people think that straight Christians, most of them married, are being hypocritical when they say that gay people should just be celibate. The classical Christian position on sexuality is neither left-wing nor right-wing. I think we could convince more people, or at least make ourselves look more reasonable in their eyes, if we lived up to it more fully.
 

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A response from a ROCOR Deacon:

So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise gay or transgender people and the gay or transgender rights movement, if your primary concept of Christian morality revolves around sexual ethics, if for you the Church’s role in the public sphere is primarily to fight the so-called ‘culture war’, then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2016/08/the-gospel-fear-and-politics/#disqus_thread
 

Cyrillic

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Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'

ROCOR was supposed to be hardcore Orthodoxy, wasn't it?
 

Iconodule

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Cyrillic said:
Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'
Not what he said, but nice try.

ROCOR was supposed to be hardcore Orthodoxy, wasn't it?
I'm guessing Fr Dcn Aaron is putting himself on the line for his words here. We'll see what happens.
 

Iconodule

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Orest said:
A response from a ROCOR Deacon:

So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise gay or transgender people and the gay or transgender rights movement, if your primary concept of Christian morality revolves around sexual ethics, if for you the Church’s role in the public sphere is primarily to fight the so-called ‘culture war’, then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2016/08/the-gospel-fear-and-politics/#disqus_thread
Axios!
 

Cyrillic

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Iconodule said:
Cyrillic said:
Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'
Not what he said, but nice try.
What else could he mean with 'attacking the gay or transgender rights movement'?
 

Iconodule

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Cyrillic said:
Iconodule said:
Cyrillic said:
Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'
Not what he said, but nice try.
What else could he mean with 'attacking the gay or transgender rights movement'?
How about an incendiary speech in a country known for rock-throwing homophobic mobs? Meanwhile giving other sins a pass or even a justification.

 

Iconodule

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BTW Fr. Dcn. Aaron's blog, Logismoi, is a serious contender for best Orthodox blog anywhere:

http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/
 

Cyrillic

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Either way, he's probably be a fine deacon. But he phrased his article in such a way that it can be easily misinterpreted.
 
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