Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

Hinterlander

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NicholasMyra said:
Hinterlander said:
The word "gay" is at the center of "identity politics culture"
As is "same-sex attracted" "Christian" etc. nowadays. Evangelicals and other conservative groups got in on the ground floor of identity politics as much as your favorite pansexual community college english instructor. I'd wager you'd see "...as a Christian..." on Evo sources more than anywhere else.

Hinterlander said:
like it or not and that is the reason why Christians, some of whom are Evangelicals, have sought other ways of trying to discuss the issue.
...by playing weird predicate games.

Hinterlander said:
  I see phrases like "homosexual tendencies" in some Orthodox statements.  How does that make you feel?
That a bamboozle did not succeed in bamboozling; and that Orthodox especially in America are too willing to borrow uncritically from sectarian sources.
This very board uses the term "homosexual orientation" in its statement http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules Is that better than tendencies/SSA?  How about celibate gay?  Should I follow the GLAAD Media Reference guide? http://www.glaad.org/reference.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
the Pink Mafia here
Who are they?
What, you want me to attack people by name? Why?

I have already said that they are those who do the following:
1. Attack the person. We need to inundate this thread with personal attacks on the character of Father Trenham. I was hoping that something about Reconstructionism would come out. Let's try to tie him to Right Wing political groups or esoteric Protestant sects. No need to provide any fact-base for our assertions. Don't worry: we've got some of the cops on our payroll. The point here is to cast aspersions on the character of anybody that teaches traditional Orthodox sexuality. It will be insane!;

2. Redefine the subject.  Remember what Saul Alinsky has taught us:
I. Phase I. Change the subject. Complain about how the Church talks too much about sex.
II. Phase II. "Deemphasise" the subject. We acknowledge the sin of homosexuality, but talk about how it shouldn't be a priority of the Church.
III. Phase III. Redefine the subject. We reject the notion that homosexuality should be condemned. We refer a lot to how the Early Church condemned contraception and divorce as well. We talk from experience how homosexuality is actually a blessed thing.

You don't think anybody here on the pro-gay side does this? If not, go back and read this thread.
 

Ilyin

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This is great video from Russia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pBMLOhqhls&feature=youtu.be

 

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Oc.net has clearly defined what it believes in the matter.
Well...there is "OC.net" ---- and then there is oc.net-o-philes, the later being how I took Clemente's reference to OC.net.  I'm not fond of the Pink Mafia moniker.

I find it interesting that - like within the rest of our culture - one side is permitted carte blanche while the other is asked (told / pressured / mandated) to stop expressing their opinion on the matter.

"Melodrama" is certainly a good way to belittle another person's opinions on the matter.  I believe satire and melodrama are good tools to sometimes make a point, which I believe was Clemente's intent.  His point in response to an unsubstantiated, speculative claim as to Fr. Josiah's imbibing in Reconstructionalism was spot on.

Perhaps some of that equal opportunity criticizing could be leveled against the borderline "ad hominem" and cleverly couched statement against Fr. Josiah.  Perhaps that's hoping for too much.

"Official stances" are fine to point to...and great for PR....I've seen them at work all my life.  But the reality "in the trenches" is different.  The United States "does not condone torture."   

God forbid a person who agrees with the official stance of OC.net share publicly their strong opinion in support of that stance, having himself done nothing to insult or sully the character of a fine preacher, exegete and shepherd who is trying to protect.

As per usual, you can have an opinion on the matter....as long as it the right one.  Push back against that and you, and Fr. Josiah, the Apostle Paul, and anyone who has ever spoken "melodramatically" about this particular issue will be vilified.

I love you Mina, but Clemente should have the right to speak freely on the matter if others are allowed to be suggestive in their comments in order to diminish the character of a clergy member who is speaking in full accord with the Scriptures, Traditions and mind of the Church.



 

Mor Ephrem

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Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
the Pink Mafia here
Who are they?
What, you want me to attack people by name?
I just wanted to know who you were referring to.  That you perceived this as an invitation to "attack people" says all I need to know. 
 

primuspilus

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I guess my big hang-up concerning this issue isn't the sin at all. Afterall, being a "practicing" homosexual is no different a feeding of the passions than lust, or theft, or anything else.

For me, its this idea that somehow, its completely normal and trying to pigeonhole the Fathers and Christ himself into somehow actually accepting it and that somehow, those who are against it are out of the historical and Christian mainstream.

It just aint so.

pink mafia
I thought it was the "lavender mafia"?

Although I dont really prescribe to some hidden conspiracy (at least in the OCA, where I believe that term got its legs) I do think there are those who lean far to the political left that allow their political beliefs influence their faith, and are more apt to look the other way concerning homosexuality than others, even in the same jurisdiction.

PP
 

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primuspilus said:
...lean far to the political left that allow their political beliefs influence their faith
What do you meam by political left and why it had anything to do with the topic? Homosexuality was illegal in the USSR.
 

primuspilus

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What do you meam by political left and why it had anything to do with the topic
Someone else spoke about how American Evangelical converts (ie. Fr. Josiah) are making more of an issue about this than it really is. I simply returned the serve.

Homosexuality was illegal in the USSR
Different times. Back when the USSR was around, nobody on the political left would have said one peep about gay marriage. Now, its almost a sacrament.

PP
 

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Onesimus said:
Oc.net has clearly defined what it believes in the matter.
Well...there is "OC.net" ---- and then there is oc.net-o-philes, the later being how I took Clemente's reference to OC.net.  I'm not fond of the Pink Mafia moniker.

I find it interesting that - like within the rest of our culture - one side is permitted carte blanche while the other is asked (told / pressured / mandated) to stop expressing their opinion on the matter.

"Melodrama" is certainly a good way to belittle another person's opinions on the matter.  I believe satire and melodrama are good tools to sometimes make a point, which I believe was Clemente's intent.  His point in response to an unsubstantiated, speculative claim as to Fr. Josiah's imbibing in Reconstructionalism was spot on.

Perhaps some of that equal opportunity criticizing could be leveled against the borderline "ad hominem" and cleverly couched statement against Fr. Josiah.  Perhaps that's hoping for too much.

"Official stances" are fine to point to...and great for PR....I've seen them at work all my life.  But the reality "in the trenches" is different.  The United States "does not condone torture."   

God forbid a person who agrees with the official stance of OC.net share publicly their strong opinion in support of that stance, having himself done nothing to insult or sully the character of a fine preacher, exegete and shepherd who is trying to protect.

As per usual, you can have an opinion on the matter....as long as it the right one.  Push back against that and you, and Fr. Josiah, the Apostle Paul, and anyone who has ever spoken "melodramatically" about this particular issue will be vilified.

I love you Mina, but Clemente should have the right to speak freely on the matter if others are allowed to be suggestive in their comments in order to diminish the character of a clergy member who is speaking in full accord with the Scriptures, Traditions and mind of the Church.
And you know what, if there's a person making it sound like the end of the world if we continue the status quo beliefs against homosexual acts, I will also call that person out.  The problem is, I see even some of the pro-LGBT folks reserved in their discussion because they know this is a website affiliated with Orthodox Christianity based on OO and EO thought.  My concern is not the views, but the way to present them.  It's called disagreeing without being disagreeable.  I'm not against Clemente's views, I'm against how it is presented.

Perhaps, the Phases of discussion by Saul Alinsky being brought up can be a good jumping off in the worries of the Orthodox community.  It does not have to be presented as if to say that some of the people posting here are pink mafia who are trying these phases, but you can say this is some of the concern of the Orthodox as presented by Saul Alinsky.

It doesn't have to be a finger-pointing discussion, which is what has been happening here.  That's all my point is.  Unless Clemente does not want the pro-LGBT folks to even discuss this here, I do not see the point of being belligerent.
 

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Hinterlander said:
This very board uses the term "homosexual orientation" in its statement http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=rules Is that better than tendencies/SSA? 
Sexual orientation commonly classes homo/heterosexual and is at least not a confused attempt at Christian linguistic micropolicy, other problems aside.

Hinterlander said:
Should I follow the GLAAD Media Reference guide?
This isn't about me being PC, I'm calling out the impotent vanity of trying to use linguistic micropolicies to wage a culture war against gay linguistic "microaggressions." ...So who's being PC?

What Evangelicals think SSA does for them vs. homosexual/gay is nonsense.
 

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minasoliman said:
Unless Clemente does not want the pro-LGBT folks to even discuss this here, I do not see the point of being belligerent.

oh that's the entire point....even those of us that are not particularly trying to do anything but make people think about the notion that HATE doesn't draw people to Christ get told that we are in error and somehow now pro- LGBT and part of some 'pink mafia'or whatever name they get to bandy about,  despite never calling them 'hate mongers' or other similar things..

want a 'discussion'?  go somewhere else...because most of the parties here are too busy calling everyone but themselves the 'pink mafia'
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
the Pink Mafia here
Who are they?
What, you want me to attack people by name?
I just wanted to know who you were referring to.  That you perceived this as an invitation to "attack people" says all I need to know.
Colorful group names aside, there are certain individuals who post in these threads almost every time. Like Johnny Unitas' haircut, you could almost set your watch to it. I'm guessing Clemente was referring to a segment of these regular contributors. But you're an observant dude...
 

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Clemente said:
minasoliman said:
The forum is filled with folks of all types of views.  In the Religious Topics section especially, we have allowed people of all views, heterodox or orthodox, to discuss and debate.  I think your post is filled with unnecessary melodrama.  In any other section, like Faith Issues, only the Orthodox view is allowed.

Ideally, this section is supposed to be for those who hold orthodox views, like yourself, to be able to discuss and debate the issues with gentleness and consistency.  It is also a chance to learn about what the other side says or believes.  For you to continue to ramble on that oc.net is turning into a pro-LGBT agenda is like oc.net turning pro-Muslim at times when Muslims come to debate their beliefs. 

So, I ask you kindly, cut it out! Please!  Oc.net has clearly defined what it believes in the matter.
I haven't publicly criticised at all your decision to foment debate with the "heterodox" about established Orthodox doctrine.

Rather, I am simply highlighting the tired but effective tactics of the Pink Mafia here. I tip my hat to them and their success. They are indeed formidable opponents standing against Church tradition and I do not underestimate them.

I would note that you have chosen to label my post as "filled with unnecessary melodrama", so even the casual observer might question your neutrality in this debate. If my post seems "melodramatic", it is perhaps due to my profound respect for them and their potential to change Church doctrine.
Am I part of the Pink Mafia? I would like to know if I'm supposed to be flaying homosexuals or mocking Church tradition. I haven't figured out what my role is here.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Hinterlander said:
The word "gay" is at the center of "identity politics culture"
As is "same-sex attracted" "Christian" etc. nowadays. Evangelicals and other conservative groups got in on the ground floor of identity politics as much as your favorite pansexual community college english instructor. I'd wager you'd see "...as a Christian..." on Evo sources more than anywhere else. 
The identity politics goes back to at least Francis Schaeffer motivating the Fundamentalist/Evangelical movement to re-engage with politics.  At the time leaders like Falwell dismissed abortion as "a Catholic issue" and were initially very skeptical.  Schaeffer was just emboldened by Rushdoony's narrative of decline of the western world and a desire to return to a naïve, premodern worldview, one rooted in a Calvinist denigration of human reason and ability and hostile to freedom.    And since the movement as a whole was never very deeply intellectual, someone as sophomoric in their analysis as Schaeffer was heralded as a genius.

Schaeffer was motivated by the correctly perceived instability of the "old time religion".  At the end of his life, his son said he expressed fondness for Roman Catholicism.  So in the end what you really have is a movement in meltdown, lurching from one issue to the next in order to uphold a fragile identity.  Rene Girard would have a thing or two to say about such scapegoating.  Yesterday it was abortion doctors.  Today it is gays.  Soon enough it will probably be Muslims, or whatever powerless minority group that is a potent symbol against perceived "Christian" identity.  This form of Calvinism has never been one for bearing crosses (being what Luther would call a Theology of Glory), though it has always been happy to heft them onto the backs of others.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Cognomen said:
Colorful group names aside, there are certain individuals who post in these threads almost every time. Like Johnny Unitas' haircut, you could almost set your watch to it. I'm guessing Clemente was referring to a segment of these regular contributors.
Certain individuals post in all sorts of threads almost every time. 

But you're an observant dude...
Except when I don't see what others want me to see, right? 
 
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I feel burned out with these debates, I'm guilty as a chief among sinners in the past for getting nasty towards folks, yet  why can't it be civil around here? It spiritually, and emotionally unhealthy.
 

Charles Martel

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It doesn't have to be a finger-pointing discussion, which is what has been happening here.  That's all my point is.  Unless Clemente does not want the pro-LGBT folks to even discuss this here, I do not see the point of being belligerent.
Trying to somehow legitimize homosexuality or force it's acceptance on the Church is an act of belligerence in itself.

The unrepentant sodomites on here are desperately trying to force the Church into submission like they have already done in secular society and the first line of attack is to question the Church's doctrine on the  very essence of the sin  homosexuality.

The second is to attack good priests like the one in the OP who has the very nerve to defend Church teaching and brazenly stand against the sexual deviants global agenda of forced submission of sodomy against every living being on the planet. They can't have no exceptions.

And the last line is to get every clergymen and devout follower like yourself on board and defend them in the name of "charity" and the need for "open" discussions about dialogue on the what to do about squaring homosexuality and Christianity.

You know exactly what's going n here mina, yet you insist on accusing anyone who calls out the sin of sodom for what it is nothing more than a "belligerent" and use the threat of moderation to shut down any real debate against those who would try and decieve and twist Church doctrine into their own demented modernist form of  "tolerant"Christianity. Silence the oppostion is the ultimate weapon of the devil.

When it comes right down to it, you christians are really no different than the world you purport to fight against. There is no difference between your church and the world that we live in pushing these sins of the flesh. The only martyrs you will see in the decadent, fleshy sinful "tolerant" West, are those that will oppose this beastly system. Even within their own repsective "churches".

Threads like this shows why much of "christianity" is a joke to many of the seekers out there who are truly seeking for the Truth and something  to believe in and not just another politically correct institution pushing all kinds of deviancy on them which they know instinctively in their heart is wrong and un-natural, regardless how much the system tells them it's "normal".

This kind of religion stands for nothing. Except the "rights" of deviancy.

Good luck with that.
 

Charles Martel

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seekeroftruth777 said:
I feel burned out with these debates, I'm guilty as a chief among sinners in the past for getting nasty towards folks, yet  why can't it be civil around here? It spiritually, and emotionally unhealthy.
I keep hearing this "I'm a sinner so I won't judge anything on sodomy" nonsense.

I haven't seen anyone on here declaring they weren't a sinner, that's just ridiculous.

But that's the MO of the unrepentant sodomite, accuse anyone who defies this sexual sin as being "judgmental".

Well, if that's the case, you're damn right I'm judgmental, I'm just abiding by the Laws of God and the Natural Law he created.

If I'm guilty of violating these Laws, then yes, I need to be accountable as well.

But I will not be submitted into silence under the guise of being nonjudgmental or "charity".

Not judging or speaking against the violation of God's Laws is about being uncharitable as you can get.

As well as being a coward and not defending Christ and his Holy Church.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Charles Martel said:
I haven't seen anyone on here declaring they weren't a sinner, that's just ridiculous.

But that's the MO of the unrepentant sodomite, accuse anyone who defies this sexual sin as being "judgmental".

Well, if that's the case, you're damn right I'm judgmental, I'm just abiding by the Laws of God and the Natural Law he created.
lol

If I'm guilty of violating these Laws, then yes, I need to be accountable as well.
How would you be held accountable?
 
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So Charles I would be a coward, and not defending Christ, and his Church if I think it should be defended in a civil way, what would be your way? another inqustion?
 

Charles Martel

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primuspilus said:
To Charles Martel:

Im not trying to throw stones, but it seems to me, that your Church is inching ever closer to the precipice that you are railing against.

PP
Let me know when they endorse sodomy.
 

Charles Martel

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Quote from: Charles Martel on Today at 05:23:42 AM
I haven't seen anyone on here declaring they weren't a sinner, that's just ridiculous.

But that's the MO of the unrepentant sodomite, accuse anyone who defies this sexual sin as being "judgmental".

Well, if that's the case, you're damn right I'm judgmental, I'm just abiding by the Laws of God and the Natural Law he created.

lol
Only a clown would laugh at the mention of Natural Law and only a fool would believe he could defy it.



How would you be held accountable?
How would I not?
 

Charles Martel

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seekeroftruth777 said:
So Charles I would be a coward, and not defending Christ, and his Church if I think it should be defended in a civil way, what would be your way? another inqustion?
What's you idea of "civil"? Confirming the sodomite in his sin?

What's you idea of inquisition? Refusing to bake them a cake?

I hear about all this "persecution" of the peddelers of sodomy, where is it?

Please, somebody show me where anyone,anywhere in this culture is having an "inquisition" of sodomites at anytime.

Everyone is bending over backwards as to not offend them , even the pope. I mean, really, who is he to judge homosexuality?

I don't know, maybe like the vicar of Christ?

What a complete freakshow of a religion and culture we are becoming.

 

Mor Ephrem

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Charles Martel said:
Quote from: Charles Martel on Today at 05:23:42 AM
I haven't seen anyone on here declaring they weren't a sinner, that's just ridiculous.

But that's the MO of the unrepentant sodomite, accuse anyone who defies this sexual sin as being "judgmental".

Well, if that's the case, you're damn right I'm judgmental, I'm just abiding by the Laws of God and the Natural Law he created.

lol
Only a clown would laugh at the mention of Natural Law and only a fool would believe he could defy it.
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 

How would you be held accountable?
How would I not?
If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?  What does that look like? 
 

ialmisry

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Charles Martel said:
Quote from: Charles Martel on Today at 05:23:42 AM
I haven't seen anyone on here declaring they weren't a sinner, that's just ridiculous.

But that's the MO of the unrepentant sodomite, accuse anyone who defies this sexual sin as being "judgmental".

Well, if that's the case, you're damn right I'm judgmental, I'm just abiding by the Laws of God and the Natural Law he created.

lol
Only a clown would laugh at the mention of Natural Law and only a fool would believe he could defy it.



How would you be held accountable?
How would I not?
 

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Charles Martel said:
I hear about all this "persecution" of the peddelers of sodomy, where is it?
Most of Asia and South America, pretty entire Africa, half of Europe.
 

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RaphaCam said:
Same-sex unions are recognised by almost all South American states, none of them have anti-sodomy laws and some even have discrimination punished by law...
And what about the general public?
 

RaphaCam

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I can only speak to Brazil, where there are hate crimes in "no-go zones"  but otherwise homosexuals have a lot of freedom.

Maybe in the general picture someone from Sweden or Canada would find us convinced homophobes, but it's surely at least a bit more comfortable than Eastern Europe.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Cognomen said:
Colorful group names aside, there are certain individuals who post in these threads almost every time. Like Johnny Unitas' haircut, you could almost set your watch to it. I'm guessing Clemente was referring to a segment of these regular contributors.
Certain individuals post in all sorts of threads almost every time.
Yeah, but I think there's a noticeable trend of participants in these threads (on both sides of the issue). That's like arguing that LBK participated in icon threads because she posted in all sorts of threads. People have topics that they care more about, and their posting patterns sometimes reflect this.

I'm not trying to imply anything nefarious or negligent about your observing or not observing. Merely pointing out what I see as a fairly discernible pattern of regular contributors (yes, many to the forum in general, but also to this topic), and that Clemente was likely labeling frequent posters on one side of the argument as the Pink Mafia. Maybe Clemente's side can have a name too!

Love!

 

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Even in the US, there are still many states where discrimination in housing and employment against LGBT persons is legal.  We may have federal laws that say that same sex marriage is valid in every state, but that doesn't mean comprehensive anti-discrimination laws.  In fact there is often a false perception by the general public in many states that gay persons are protected by the law against housing and employment discrimination, when in fact they are not.
 

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Daedelus1138 said:
Even in the US, there are still many states where discrimination in housing and employment against LGBT persons is legal.  We may have federal laws that say that same sex marriage is valid in every state, but that doesn't mean comprehensive anti-discrimination laws.  In fact there is often a false perception by the general public in many states that gay persons are protected by the law against housing and employment discrimination, when in fact they are not.
And how would anyone know they are gay?  Who is going to know what they rub a little piece of skin against in the privacy of their own home.

It's not like skin color or actually being a woman.  Women are discriminated against all the time, are half the population or less in parts of the world where they kill babies for being female

Yet the media and apparently a lot of people find the hottest topic is to be who is rubbing up against what

Maybe the solution is that everyone should shut up about their sex life and keep private things private

So get in line if you just figured out that people aren't always fair with each other

Because you can't vouch for the financials of every person who is applying for housing

 

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Velsigne said:
Maybe the solution is that everyone should shut up about their sex life and keep private things private
And where do you think Fr Trenham's 10 children came from, dust under the bed?  ;)
 

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I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.

If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america
 
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