Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

Charles Martel

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ialmisry said:
Charles Martel said:
Quote from: Charles Martel on Today at 05:23:42 AM
I haven't seen anyone on here declaring they weren't a sinner, that's just ridiculous.

But that's the MO of the unrepentant sodomite, accuse anyone who defies this sexual sin as being "judgmental".

Well, if that's the case, you're damn right I'm judgmental, I'm just abiding by the Laws of God and the Natural Law he created.

lol
Only a clown would laugh at the mention of Natural Law and only a fool would believe he could defy it.



How would you be held accountable?
How would I not?
What do freemasons  have to do with this?
 

Charles Martel

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mike said:
Charles Martel said:
I hear about all this "persecution" of the peddelers of sodomy, where is it?
Most of Asia and South America, pretty entire Africa, half of Europe.
By persecution, you mean resistance.

Give the promoters of sodomy time.

This is a global agenda.
 

Charles Martel

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mike said:
RaphaCam said:
Same-sex unions are recognised by almost all South American states, none of them have anti-sodomy laws and some even have discrimination punished by law...
And what about the general public?
Just like in the West, they reject the very act of sodomy until their either legislatively coercered or effectively brainwashed, usually the young, by a nonstop pro-"gay" propaganda machine.

 

Charles Martel

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FinnJames said:
Velsigne said:
Maybe the solution is that everyone should shut up about their sex life and keep private things private
And where do you think Fr Trenham's 10 children came from, dust under the bed?  ;)
He has 10 children? I'm starting to like this guy even more.

 

FinnJames

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Charles Martel said:
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.
What do you mean by Natural Law? It's a proven fact that several animal species engage in homosexual behaviour. Are they somehow not a part of nature? If you mean that homosexual sex is not an efficient way of producing offspring, even your most hated Pink Mafia opponent admits that.

What are you so afraid of? Do you think sodomy is such a tempting option that given the freedom to choose, everyone would abandon heterosexuality in favour of homosexuality and the human race would die out? Or are you threatened because you yourself are so tempted that you would rush out to engage in sodomy if you ceased your prayers?

You point elsewhere to HIV statistics. Do you seriously think they would be as high as they are today if same-sex couples had before the rise of the epidemic been granted the same social support heterosexual couples have enjoyed rather than being subjected for so long to pressure from society and religion to engage in furtive contact and avoid forming stable couples?

You show yourself to be fundamentalist and unwilling to meet your enemy even a quarter of the way, to say nothing of loving him. The more I read your posts, the more I begin to see why some members of the "Homomafia" view the church as the enemy.
 

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Velsigne said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Even in the US, there are still many states where discrimination in housing and employment against LGBT persons is legal.  We may have federal laws that say that same sex marriage is valid in every state, but that doesn't mean comprehensive anti-discrimination laws.  In fact there is often a false perception by the general public in many states that gay persons are protected by the law against housing and employment discrimination, when in fact they are not.
And how would anyone know they are gay?  Who is going to know what they rub a little piece of skin against in the privacy of their own home.

It's not like skin color or actually being a woman.  Women are discriminated against all the time, are half the population or less in parts of the world where they kill babies for being female

Yet the media and apparently a lot of people find the hottest topic is to be who is rubbing up against what

Maybe the solution is that everyone should shut up about their sex life and keep private things private

So get in line if you just figured out that people aren't always fair with each other

Because you can't vouch for the financials of every person who is applying for housing
Let me begin by saying I agree that people need to stop talking about sex in public. 

As far as your solution goes, you're putting this in a very specific situation.  In the work place, people ask about spouses/partners, children, families, etc of their co-workers.  Which in my experience has never gotten to the point of asking or telling about one's sex life (though I'm sure it happens).  If a person happens to mention they have a boyfriend if they're male, or a girlfriend if they're female, without even thinking about it, suddenly it becomes known that this person is gay. 

I don't think we should be making excuses for any type of work place discrimination.  Whether one is male, female, black, white, straight, gay, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, etc. should not matter, because none of that has anything to do with a person's ability to do their job. 
 

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FinnJames said:
You show yourself to be fundamentalist and unwilling to meet your enemy even a quarter of the way, to say nothing of loving him. The more I read your posts, the more I begin to see why some members of the "Homomafia" view the church as the enemy.
Yes, it is people talking like some on here have been, that is exactly why many feel like they are not welcome in the church. 
Whether they are gay, or are just a close friend/relative to a gay person. 

Of course, on the other hand, there are those that go to the extreme on the other side.  They make broad generalizations and attacks towards the church and Christianity in general, because often times the loudest voices are the ones making condemning statements about an issue or a group of people.  So all they end up hearing are those condemning statements.
 

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FinnJames said:
Velsigne said:
Maybe the solution is that everyone should shut up about their sex life and keep private things private
And where do you think Fr Trenham's 10 children came from, dust under the bed?  ;)
These days, having unprotected sex ten times in ~15 years is nothing to brag about.
 

Mor Ephrem

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FatherGiryus said:
FinnJames said:
Velsigne said:
Maybe the solution is that everyone should shut up about their sex life and keep private things private
And where do you think Fr Trenham's 10 children came from, dust under the bed?  ;)
These days, having unprotected sex ten times in ~15 years is nothing to brag about.
❤
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
FatherGiryus said:
FinnJames said:
Velsigne said:
Maybe the solution is that everyone should shut up about their sex life and keep private things private
And where do you think Fr Trenham's 10 children came from, dust under the bed?  ;)
These days, having unprotected sex ten times in ~15 years is nothing to brag about.
❤
I guess this means you are willing to have that awkward conversation with FinnJames about where babies come from?

Perhaps you should also talk to him about how dust bunnies don't actually breed like rabbits...
 

Mor Ephrem

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Charles Martel said:
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins...
Of course, for that you'd have to first admit to having committed specific sins, which is a luxury not afforded others, who, whether or not they have admitted to engaging in certain sins, or even in spite of denying it or admitting repentance, are assumed to just be totally lost in sin.

...and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.
You need not remind me of the Church's teaching on homosexuality, I'm well aware of it and accept it.  If you can point to any statements of mine here or in any other thread in which I have challenged or rejected the teaching and practice of the Church regarding homosexuality (NB: the Church, not your denomination), please do so. 

But I don't think you can.  I don't think Clemente can.  I don't think any of you can.

The real problem is that I look at "homosexuals" or "sodomites" or "LGBT people" or whatever you want to call them and I see people, whereas you see only incarnate sins, abominations, false dogmas, and corruption.  The instinct to reject those things, to say that there can be no good relationship with them, is good, but your equation is bad.  You have to see people.  People created in the image of God.  People for whom Christ died.  People like us, all of whom are called to much more and much better than we want.  If you only see the sin and not the person, your "religion" sucks, your "faith" is invalid, and "the measure you give will be the measure you get". 

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.
If "we're all sinners" is a sincere comment, then this realisation about yourself should make you feel some compassion or empathy for others.  Some sin less than you, others sin more than you, some sin less seriously than you, others sin more seriously than you, but "we're all sinners" means "I'm a sinner", which means if I want to be shown mercy, I have to show mercy. 

But that's not what you said.  You said "it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is (sic) a sinner".  That's true when it comes to "Sodomy is wrong" (or, for that matter, "[insert any sin's name] is wrong").  But it empties "we're all sinners" of any meaning.  It's just a throw-away, like "Some of my best friends are Roman Catholics" would seem to you if I went on to describe all the ways your denomination is a false religion.

If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america
I'm sorry, I should've been more clear that my question was specifically addressed to you.  I'll try again:

If you, Charles Martel, are guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?  What does that look like? 
 

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FatherGiryus said:
Perhaps you should also talk to him about how dust bunnies don't actually breed like rabbits...[/size][/font]
No matter how many times I tell that to the ones lurking under the furniture, they just keep on multiplying and multiplying.  :)
 

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FinnJames said:
FatherGiryus said:
Perhaps you should also talk to him about how dust bunnies don't actually breed like rabbits...[/size][/font]
No matter how many times I tell that to the ones lurking under the furniture, they just keep on multiplying and multiplying.  :)
Yes, but not the way rabbits multiply.


They are magical.


;D
 

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Charles Martel said:
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.

If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america
Moderator hat on:

I'm going to ask you Charles to substantiate your claim that Mor Ephrem encourages sodomy.  If you cannot substantiate this claim, then I will give you a 45% warning based on the fact that the last time you received an ad hominem warning was with 40%.

You have 24 hours to fulfill my request.

Mina
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
You need not remind me of the Church's teaching on homosexuality, I'm well aware of it and accept it.  If you can point to any statements of mine here or in any other thread in which I have challenged or rejected the teaching and practice of the Church regarding homosexuality (NB: the Church, not your denomination), please do so. 

But I don't think you can.  I don't think Clemente can.  I don't think any of you can.
Why do you mention my name in this context? Have I ever doubted your commitment to Church teaching on this issue?

I have not been critical of the Moderation here, but rather of the Pink Mafia's baseless attacks on Father Trenham, an Orthodox priest in good standing. However, given the past few posts here, I can understand why others may be frustrated. Yes, OC.net has a statement on homosexuality, but as one poster said, pity the traditional Orthodox poster who tries to defend the OC.net statement.

Why did you feel the need to side with posters critical of Father Trenham? Don't you forfeit your status as a moderator when you choose sides in a debate?

Mor Ephrem said:
Iconodule said:
A couple things need to be considered here, namely, what our priorities are, what is the most charitable way to pursue them, and what is the most effective way to pursue them. Fr. Josiah's antics fail on all three counts. Singling out these hot-button culture war issues mutilates the gospel. The Christian prohibition on homosexuality grows increasingly unintelligible throughout the world...

And why, perhaps most importantly, are these sexual sins so emphasized, while graver injustices, doing far more damage to society, are ignored or even justified by our clergy?

The rhetoric about "homofascists" is not only ridiculous, but represents a defensive mentality, an urge to cling to a fast-fading cultural and political hegemony.
I agree with your first sentence and much of your criticism of Fr Josiah...
Can you understand that those of us defending Father Trenham and traditional Orthodox sexuality might feel frustrated when a Moderator chooses to agree with the arguments of the opposite side, including the baseless attacks on his person and in the need to "de-emphasise" sexual sins?

Is that the role of the Moderator here, to give credence and support to a particular side?

Again, for the record, I am not criticising you but rather genuinely curious after you called me out for some reason.
 

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I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
 

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minasoliman said:
I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
I love Fr. Hopko. And Father Trenham. Very different men.

I also love both St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. Very different men. Do all priests have to have the same demeanor? Should they all have the same focus or calling?

Can you understand that your joining the criticism of Father Trenham in this thread lead some of those defending him to feel like even the Moderators are against us?
 

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minasoliman said:
I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
"Correctly" according to who?    You?

Is it possible that Clemente needs some compassion shown for his POV? 

Or is compassion only compassion when it is shown for people struggling on one end of this issue?

There are people hurting on the other end too, and frankly no one thinks they need compassion. 

WheN on sees what they consider "melodrama" perhaps they might take a moment to consider what some of us have experienced with this tearing apart our families, tearing apart churches, etc.  compassion means thinking about the pain that is being felt by others as well, and perhaps recognizing that pain in their writing.

 

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Onesimus said:
minasoliman said:
I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
"Correctly" according to who?    You?

Is it possible that Clemente needs some compassion shown for his POV? 

Or is compassion only compassion when it is shown for people struggling on one end of this issue?

There are people hurting on the other end too, and frankly no one thinks they need compassion. 

WheN on sees what they consider "melodrama" perhaps they might take a moment to consider what some of us have experienced with this tearing apart our families, tearing apart churches, etc.  compassion means thinking about the pain that is being felt by others as well, and perhaps recognizing that pain in their writing.
Too lazy to look it up now but this reminds me of a meme that went like this : on this doll, show me exactly where is homosexuality hurting YOU.
 

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augustin717 said:
Onesimus said:
minasoliman said:
I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
"Correctly" according to who?    You?

Is it possible that Clemente needs some compassion shown for his POV? 

Or is compassion only compassion when it is shown for people struggling on one end of this issue?

There are people hurting on the other end too, and frankly no one thinks they need compassion. 

WheN on sees what they consider "melodrama" perhaps they might take a moment to consider what some of us have experienced with this tearing apart our families, tearing apart churches, etc.  compassion means thinking about the pain that is being felt by others as well, and perhaps recognizing that pain in their writing.
Too lazy to look it up now but this reminds me of a meme that went like this : on this doll, show me exactly where is homosexuality hurting YOU.
My family is being torn apart by this at the moment in probably the most disturbing way I can imagine.  If I could point to the rift in my soul, I would.  There are children being effected by it in a way that is beyond imagination.

I guess that's part of that "compassion."  Assuming that it has no effect on others.
 

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I replied before you edited your post with the children bit. Well you're not the only one that has had family problems over this. More often than not it's the other end that suffers more, but not knowing you and your circumstances I'll take your word for it.
 

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Onesimus said:
augustin717 said:
I replied before you edited your post with the children bit. Well you're not the only one that has had family problems over this. More often than not it's the other end that suffers more, but not knowing you and your circumstances I'll take your word for it.
is that your version of an apology?
Apology for what?
 

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Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
You need not remind me of the Church's teaching on homosexuality, I'm well aware of it and accept it.  If you can point to any statements of mine here or in any other thread in which I have challenged or rejected the teaching and practice of the Church regarding homosexuality (NB: the Church, not your denomination), please do so. 

But I don't think you can.  I don't think Clemente can.  I don't think any of you can.
Why do you mention my name in this context?
Clemente said:
Can you understand that your joining the criticism of Father Trenham in this thread lead some of those defending him to feel like even the Moderators are against us?
Since I've been told I'm an observant person, I observed that both you and Charles are among several of Fr Josiah's ardent defenders and proponents, and I perceived what you just admitted: there is an "us". 

Have I ever doubted your commitment to Church teaching on this issue?
Explicitly, I don't think so.  Implicitly, I'm not sure, only you can answer that. 

I have not been critical of the Moderation here, but rather of the Pink Mafia's baseless attacks on Father Trenham, an Orthodox priest in good standing. However, given the past few posts here, I can understand why others may be frustrated. Yes, OC.net has a statement on homosexuality, but as one poster said, pity the traditional Orthodox poster who tries to defend the OC.net statement.
Again with the "Pink Mafia", whom you won't name when asked, but we are supposed to believe is a real thing anyway. 

I have met and spent time with Fr Josiah.  I've even "worked" with him on one occasion.  For me, he's not just a bunch of Youtube videos and podcasts.  So when I criticise the man, I'm criticising certain things said and done by a real person known to me that I believe are inappropriate.  And they are critiques, not attacks.  When I have felt the need, I have also defended him on occasion.  Turning me into some sort of "anti-Trenham" foot soldier would be wrong. 

Why did you feel the need to side with posters critical of Father Trenham? Don't you forfeit your status as a moderator when you choose sides in a debate?
If I'm not typing like this, I'm not posting as a moderator.  I'm posting as myself.  And I have the right to an opinion as much as anyone else. 

I have not sided "with posters critical of Father Trenham" in some unqualified manner.  When I agree with them, I say so.  When I disagree with them, I say so.  This thread has examples of both.  Anyone who can be bothered to read the thread or even just my posts in this thread will see that. 

Mor Ephrem said:
Iconodule said:
A couple things need to be considered here, namely, what our priorities are, what is the most charitable way to pursue them, and what is the most effective way to pursue them. Fr. Josiah's antics fail on all three counts. Singling out these hot-button culture war issues mutilates the gospel. The Christian prohibition on homosexuality grows increasingly unintelligible throughout the world...

And why, perhaps most importantly, are these sexual sins so emphasized, while graver injustices, doing far more damage to society, are ignored or even justified by our clergy?

The rhetoric about "homofascists" is not only ridiculous, but represents a defensive mentality, an urge to cling to a fast-fading cultural and political hegemony.
I agree with your first sentence and much of your criticism of Fr Josiah...
Can you understand that those of us defending Father Trenham and traditional Orthodox sexuality might feel frustrated when a Moderator chooses to agree with the arguments of the opposite side, including the baseless attacks on his person and in the need to "de-emphasise" sexual sins?

Is that the role of the Moderator here, to give credence and support to a particular side?

Again, for the record, I am not criticising you but rather genuinely curious after you called me out for some reason.
The quotation to which you are responding is incomplete, presumably because you deleted the portion that would've negated your argument.  I encourage you to read it and my other posts in full before challenging me as if I have sided with a particular point of view 100%.  If you have any questions, feel free to ask.  But don't misrepresent my point of view as if I am challenging Orthodox teaching and practice and then ask me "Have I ever doubted your commitment to Church teaching on this issue?"   
 

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Onesimus said:
There are people hurting on the other end too, and frankly no one thinks they need compassion
I don't think that's true.  I certainly don't believe that.  But fomenting an "us vs them" mentality is not always helpful. 

As a Christian, I believe that at a certain point, this does become an "us vs them" issue.  No matter how compassionately you speak and act, certain truths are just going to be uncomfortable and unpalatable to people.  But when Christians embrace the "us vs them" mentality, their witness becomes tainted.     
 

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Clemente said:
minasoliman said:
I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
I love Fr. Hopko. And Father Trenham. Very different men.

I also love both St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. Very different men. Do all priests have to have the same demeanor? Should they all have the same focus or calling?

Can you understand that your joining the criticism of Father Trenham in this thread lead some of those defending him to feel like even the Moderators are against us?
Do you know why I'm criticizing him?  Or are you simply bunching me with every other critic in this thread?  Do I really need to sound like a broken record to repeat myself?

Onesimus said:
minasoliman said:
I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
"Correctly" according to who?    You?

Is it possible that Clemente needs some compassion shown for his POV? 

Or is compassion only compassion when it is shown for people struggling on one end of this issue?

There are people hurting on the other end too, and frankly no one thinks they need compassion. 

WheN on sees what they consider "melodrama" perhaps they might take a moment to consider what some of us have experienced with this tearing apart our families, tearing apart churches, etc.  compassion means thinking about the pain that is being felt by others as well, and perhaps recognizing that pain in their writing.
I already explained why I felt Fr. Josiah is in the wrong.  You can read my posts. I promise you I did not get involved in back and forth, so there is substantial and straightforward reasons for the position I take.

Granted my reasons has been ignored and the repeat of the "oc.net pink mafia" moniker continues, as if this site is doomed to end.  And I was just as harsh in my criticism of some people who may identify themselves as pro-LGBT as much as I was am with Clemente.  I encourage to read those posts.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
You need not remind me of the Church's teaching on homosexuality, I'm well aware of it and accept it.  If you can point to any statements of mine here or in any other thread in which I have challenged or rejected the teaching and practice of the Church regarding homosexuality (NB: the Church, not your denomination), please do so. 

But I don't think you can.  I don't think Clemente can.  I don't think any of you can.
Why do you mention my name in this context?
Clemente said:
Can you understand that your joining the criticism of Father Trenham in this thread lead some of those defending him to feel like even the Moderators are against us?
Since I've been told I'm an observant person, I observed that both you and Charles are among several of Fr Josiah's ardent defenders and proponents, and I perceived what you just admitted: there is an "us". 

Have I ever doubted your commitment to Church teaching on this issue?
Explicitly, I don't think so.  Implicitly, I'm not sure, only you can answer that. 

I have not been critical of the Moderation here, but rather of the Pink Mafia's baseless attacks on Father Trenham, an Orthodox priest in good standing. However, given the past few posts here, I can understand why others may be frustrated. Yes, OC.net has a statement on homosexuality, but as one poster said, pity the traditional Orthodox poster who tries to defend the OC.net statement.
Again with the "Pink Mafia", whom you won't name when asked, but we are supposed to believe is a real thing anyway. 

I have met and spent time with Fr Josiah.  I've even "worked" with him on one occasion.  For me, he's not just a bunch of Youtube videos and podcasts.  So when I criticise the man, I'm criticising certain things said and done by a real person known to me that I believe are inappropriate.  And they are critiques, not attacks.  When I have felt the need, I have also defended him on occasion.  Turning me into some sort of "anti-Trenham" foot soldier would be wrong. 

Why did you feel the need to side with posters critical of Father Trenham? Don't you forfeit your status as a moderator when you choose sides in a debate?
If I'm not typing like this, I'm not posting as a moderator.  I'm posting as myself.  And I have the right to an opinion as much as anyone else. 

I have not sided "with posters critical of Father Trenham" in some unqualified manner.  When I agree with them, I say so.  When I disagree with them, I say so.  This thread has examples of both.  Anyone who can be bothered to read the thread or even just my posts in this thread will see that. 

Mor Ephrem said:
Iconodule said:
A couple things need to be considered here, namely, what our priorities are, what is the most charitable way to pursue them, and what is the most effective way to pursue them. Fr. Josiah's antics fail on all three counts. Singling out these hot-button culture war issues mutilates the gospel. The Christian prohibition on homosexuality grows increasingly unintelligible throughout the world...

And why, perhaps most importantly, are these sexual sins so emphasized, while graver injustices, doing far more damage to society, are ignored or even justified by our clergy?

The rhetoric about "homofascists" is not only ridiculous, but represents a defensive mentality, an urge to cling to a fast-fading cultural and political hegemony.
I agree with your first sentence and much of your criticism of Fr Josiah...
Can you understand that those of us defending Father Trenham and traditional Orthodox sexuality might feel frustrated when a Moderator chooses to agree with the arguments of the opposite side, including the baseless attacks on his person and in the need to "de-emphasise" sexual sins?

Is that the role of the Moderator here, to give credence and support to a particular side?

Again, for the record, I am not criticising you but rather genuinely curious after you called me out for some reason.
The quotation to which you are responding is incomplete, presumably because you deleted the portion that would've negated your argument.  I encourage you to read it and my other posts in full before challenging me as if I have sided with a particular point of view 100%.  If you have any questions, feel free to ask.  But don't misrepresent my point of view as if I am challenging Orthodox teaching and practice and then ask me "Have I ever doubted your commitment to Church teaching on this issue?" 
You knew I was going to doubt your commitment to Church teaching (which I haven't done), but that I would do so only after you accused me of doubting your commitment to Church teaching?

You know when the "implicit" will become "explicit"! LOL!

Dude, that is amazing! Are you prophetic? Do it again! What am I going to doubt in exactly three posts in the future, that you would like to reprove now?

Please, by all means post your entire discourse which I quoted in part because of space. Your throwing your support behind the argument that sexual sins should be de-emphasised (I.e what our priorities are) was indeed, in your words, "awesome".

Does Father Trenham, whom you know personally, know that you are publicly "critiquing" him, based on evidently non-public sources, and hiding behind an anonymous moniker? Does your knowing him personally give you more credibility to critique him than someone who has listened to hours of his sermons?

 

Mor Ephrem

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Clemente said:
You knew I was going to doubt your commitment to Church teaching (which I haven't done), but that I would do so only after you accused me of doubting your commitment to Church teaching?

You know when the "implicit" will become "explicit"! LOL!

Dude, that is amazing! Are you prophetic? Do it again! What am I going to doubt in exactly three posts in the future, that you would like to reprove now?

Please, by all means post your entire discourse which I quoted in part because of space. Your throwing your support behind the argument that sexual sins should be de-emphasised (I.e what our priorities are) was indeed, in your words, "awesome".
So you can't or won't read.  Very well. 

Does Father Trenham, whom you know personally, know that you are publicly "critiquing" him...
Unless he reads OCNet, probably not. 

...based on evidently non-public sources...
Huh?

...and hiding behind an anonymous moniker?
Yeah, because "Clemente" is not anonymous. 

My username is not my official name, but I'm not exactly hiding.     

Does your knowing him personally give you more credibility to critique him than someone who has listened to hours of his sermons?
More credibility?  No, not necessarily.  My point was not that I have more credibility to criticise him, but rather that for me he is a real person first, not some ideological hero or enemy that I'm reacting to. 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Onesimus said:
There are people hurting on the other end too, and frankly no one thinks they need compassion
I don't think that's true.  I certainly don't believe that.  But fomenting an "us vs them" mentality is not always helpful. 

As a Christian, I believe that at a certain point, this does become an "us vs them" issue.  No matter how compassionately you speak and act, certain truths are just going to be uncomfortable and unpalatable to people.  But when Christians embrace the "us vs them" mentality, their witness becomes tainted.   
I'm glad that's your stance Mor.  I agree with you on the us vs. them thing and I think you make some good observations.

Re: compassion.    I don't think people are understanding that some of those you think may be "fomenting" an us vs. them mentality may be suffering as well and pushing back in that suffering. I certainly cringe when I read some of the posts, but I don't imagine for one moment that those who put up such an ugly defense aren't reacting out of pain, fear or some other weakness.  We want people to be compassionate about all kinds of sins....but not be compassionate about the sins of other who are less than "tolerant."

This whole compassion thing ends up being one sided.  take a look at how, when I shared something here...the "compassion" that was shown to me was...."you'll be fine, relax, lighten up...it doesn't hurt you."  Only when I put something about children in the post did the person respond in some relevant manner...

And what was the response?  'You're not the only one."  'Usually the other side suffers more...but I'll take your word for it."

This's is the compassion people talk about?    I've never tried to quantify or deny anyone's suffering on either end....yet apparently, this guy can can diminish my need for compassion, make the assanine statement that somehow the "other end suffers more". _--as if he's been able to weigh the suffering of people either individually or collectively and make such a judgment.  The cognitive bias here is astounding.

I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.  I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them. 

But now, I've seen the way people get treated on the other side of this issue.  They lose their jobs for fair minded and even keeled critiques.  They're taken to court for "hate speech" that is I. No way even approaching such. They're told that homosexuality doesn't hurt them.  They're vilified and damned and criticized in any way possible to win a culture war.

And when they try to put up a defense....they're called Incompassionate. 

This is all quite hypocritical.    Yes...homosexuals deserve to be treated with compassion...even those who struggle valiantly in our Churches. But so do others who can and will be affected by how this issue is handled within our Churches, how their children are exposed and taught about it, how and what they're allowed to think, feel, and say...which is becoming increasingly circumscribed by the "spirit of the age." 

The  us vs. the Mentality is not one that exists on one side of this issue.  It is quite prevalent in both.
 

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Please, by all means post your entire discourse which I quoted in part because of space. Your throwing your support behind the argument that sexual sins should be de-emphasised (I.e what our priorities are) was indeed, in your words, "awesome".
You gotta be kidding me!
 

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If I didn't know first hand,  people 'affected' by others' homosexuality I wouldn't have said anything ; but I know what that sort of suffering usually amounts to: fear of loss of respectability in whatever social group they are part ( what are they gonna say that we brought up a [ insert slur] ?)  or  some genuine hysterics that you know this is the only sin sure to land someone directly in the inferno . Usually it's the first thing though.
On the other hand I know people who at least at some point of their lives were homeless because their families thought they brought shame to them.

Now tell me more how pain isn't quantifiable .
 

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And then there are some that are now afraid to throw around whatever slurs if jokes , and think that's persecution; but I work with people u afraid of making whatever jokes and and nobody has ever sued them for hate speech .
 

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Apparently you don't know how to read.

I've never tried to quantify or deny anyone's suffering on either end....yet apparently, this guy can can diminish my need for compassion, make the assanine statement that somehow the "other end suffers more". _--as if he's been able to weigh the suffering of people either individually or collectively and make such a judgment.
Don't read into things.
 

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augustin717 said:
And then there are some that are now afraid to throw around whatever slurs if jokes , and think that's persecution; but I work with people u afraid of making whatever jokes shan't and nobody has ever syed them for hate speech .
I wish this made sense.
 

augustin717

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It does. Are you afraid to express your real opinions on homosexuality at work?
I work with people that throw around the word faggot all the time. Nôbody has  taken  action against them .
 

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augustin717 said:
It does. Are you afraid to express your real opinions on homosexuality at work?
I work with people that throw around the word faggot all the time. Nôbody has  taken  action against them .
Yes.  And I'm increasingly afraid to share them here. 

Where do you live?
 

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My phone is switching back and forth between a few languages hence the misspelled words.
 

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Onesimus said:
augustin717 said:
It does. Are you afraid to express your real opinions on homosexuality at work?
I work with people that throw around the word faggot all the time. Nôbody has  taken  action against them .
Yes.  And I'm increasingly afraid to share them here.
you prob get a fat check every two weeks for that sacrifice. I dont, neither do my openly homophobic coworkers . Every job has its drawbacks and advantages .
 
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