Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

[DeniseDenise]

Watch your words, he's still a priest.

And?

You watch your mouth Mike, it not ok talking about a priest that way

Is it ok for priests to talk like that?

, you seem real hostile to the faith lately.

Not really.

Fortunately, Father Trenham has learnt enough from St. John Chrysostom not to worry too much about criticism, especially when he stands on the side of Orthodoxy.

Not worrying about criticism does not automagically make one 'on the side of Orthodoxy'.

So Denise should Orthodoxy just cave on the Sin of Homosexuality then? What is For. Josiah doing that not on the side of Orthodoxy?

did I say that?  Absolutely not. However...as Mina said above, knowing that your audience might well take your speech as carte blanche to go out and quite literally beat the stuffing out of homosexuals...is also not 'defending Orthodoxy' nor loving our neighbors and leading them to Christ.

I merely said not being concerned about criticism is not a  required characteristic for being on the side of Orthodoxy, and that lack of concern does not make one automatically 'right'

 

[NicholasMyra]

What is Fr. Josiah doing that not on the side of Orthodoxy?

When this gets moved out of news we can talk about it.

 

[mike]

It's easy to preach about evil homosexualism, greed of the capitalists or incompatibility of cannibalism and Orthodoxy. It's harder to preach about sins that the audience you are talking to actually commits instead of reading about them in newspapers (like abortions, domestic violence, violence in general, drunkenness and gluttony, risky behavior behind the wheel etc,). They could feel awkward, even criticized and may react grudgingly. But this way they can think to themselves how better they are in comparison to those (removed - Mor) and go depart in peace.

And that's not only directed at Fr. Trenham but to most of the Orthodox internet preaching, actually.

Edited to remove obscenity.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Thread locked pending moderator review. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

 

[seekeroftruth777]

Watch your words, he's still a priest.

And?

You watch your mouth Mike, it not ok talking about a priest that way

Is it ok for priests to talk like that?

, you seem real hostile to the faith lately.

Not really.

Fortunately, Father Trenham has learnt enough from St. John Chrysostom not to worry too much about criticism, especially when he stands on the side of Orthodoxy.

Not worrying about criticism does not automagically make one 'on the side of Orthodoxy'.

So Denise should Orthodoxy just cave on the Sin of Homosexuality then? What is For. Josiah doing that not on the side of Orthodoxy?

did I say that?  Absolutely not. However...as Mina said above, knowing that your audience might well take your speech as carte blanche to go out and quite literally beat the stuffing out of homosexuals...is also not 'defending Orthodoxy' nor loving our neighbors and leading them to Christ.

I merely said not being concerned about criticism is not a  required characteristic for being on the side of Orthodoxy, and that lack of concern does not make one automatically 'right'

Sorry I read what you wrote earlier the wrong way, I would agree he should be more responsible in the way he words what he means, at least in a country like Georgia. I guess I just get tired when Heirarchs or priests are put down around here. Whatever we agree with them or not, unless they are in heresy or ripping off the flock, they deserve our respect.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

It's easy to preach about evil homosexualism, greed of the capitalists or incompatibility of cannibalism and Orthodoxy. It's harder to preach about sins that the audience you are talking to actually commits instead of reading about them in newspapers (like abortions, domestic violence, violence in general, drunkenness and gluttony, risky behavior behind the wheel etc,). They could feel awkward, even criticized and may react grudgingly. But this way they can think to themselves how better they are in comparison to those (removed - Mor) and go depart in peace.

And that's not only directed at Fr. Trenham but to most of the Orthodox internet preaching, actually.

Edited to remove obscenity.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator

mike,

Though I find myself agreeing with your basic point, I am constrained by your use of obscene terminology in violation of forum rules as well as your history of inappropriate behaviour in this section to impose upon you a warning of thirty (30) points.

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Thread unlocked. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

 

[RaphaCam]

It's easy to preach about evil homosexualism, greed of the capitalists or incompatibility of cannibalism and Orthodoxy. It's harder to preach about sins that the audience you are talking to actually commits instead of reading about them in newspapers (like abortions, domestic violence, violence in general, drunkenness and gluttony, risky behavior behind the wheel etc,). They could feel awkward, even criticized and may react grudgingly. But this way they can think to themselves how better they are in comparison to those (removed - Mor) and go depart in peace.

And that's not only directed at Fr. Trenham but to most of the Orthodox internet preaching, actually.

I agree with you in that point. My opposition wasn't to your disagreement with the priest, but rather to the way you expressed it.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Perhaps I watched the wrong video, as nobody else has commented on this: the topic of his discussion in that video does not match Fr John's write-up.

I have listened to the audio from a talk he gave at that conference that does, though.

Do you mean this video?

Gay Iconoclasm: Holding the Line against the Radical LGBT Agenda

 

[Antonis]

Perhaps I watched the wrong video, as nobody else has commented on this: the topic of his discussion in that video does not match Fr John's write-up.

I have listened to the audio from a talk he gave at that conference that does, though.

Do you mean this video?

Gay Iconoclasm: Holding the Line against the Radical LGBT Agenda

That's the one.

 

[FinnJames]

Perhaps I watched the wrong video, as nobody else has commented on this: the topic of his discussion in that video does not match Fr John's write-up.

I have listened to the audio from a talk he gave at that conference that does, though.

Thanks for posting this. I wondered if I'd fallen asleep during the video and missed something. As far as I can remember, it was a pro-family and anti-abortion video, well worth watching.

 

[NicholasMyra]

What is Fr. Josiah doing that not on the side of Orthodoxy?

Grandstanding to the pusillanimous with no regard, or no right regard, for the consequences.

Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.

Disregarding good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it. Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight: The simpering resentment befitting bonded slaves, not slaves of God.

Caesaropapism leading to clerical blasphemy of a church service.

Abject lies about the Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom.

Participating in an evil, anti-Christian thinktank.

Possibly encouraging SCOBA to disregard good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it, or speaking or composing for them in this manner. Possibly condoning and advertising the fabrication of violent threat events for grandstanding purposes (see the recent "allahu akhbar" affair).

Allowing icon-like photo depictions of himself on his website (though I think the halo sun behind his head pic has been taken down).

Etc.

We stand against evil. Gird thyself, etc.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

What is Fr. Josiah doing that not on the side of Orthodoxy?

Grandstanding to the pusillanimous with no regard, or no right regard, for the consequences.

Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.

Disregarding good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it. Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight: The simpering resentment befitting bonded slaves, not slaves of God.

Caesaropapism leading to clerical blasphemy of a church service.

Abject lies about the Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom.

Participating in an evil, anti-Christian thinktank.

Possibly encouraging SCOBA to disregard good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it, or speaking or composing for them in this manner. Possibly condoning and advertising the fabrication of violent threat events for grandstanding purposes (see the recent "allahu akhbar" affair).

Allowing icon-like photo depictions of himself on his website (though I think the halo sun behind his head pic has been taken down).

Etc.

We stand against evil. Gird thyself, etc.

 

[DeniseDenise]

What is Fr. Josiah doing that not on the side of Orthodoxy?

Grandstanding to the pusillanimous with no regard, or no right regard, for the consequences.

Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.

Disregarding good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it. Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight: The simpering resentment befitting bonded slaves, not slaves of God.

Caesaropapism leading to clerical blasphemy of a church service.

Abject lies about the Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom.

Participating in an evil, anti-Christian thinktank.

Possibly encouraging SCOBA to disregard good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it, or speaking or composing for them in this manner. Possibly condoning and advertising the fabrication of violent threat events for grandstanding purposes (see the recent "allahu akhbar" affair).

Allowing icon-like photo depictions of himself on his website (though I think the halo sun behind his head pic has been taken down).

Etc.

We stand against evil. Gird thyself, etc.

The price went up....cant afford....

 

[NicholasMyra]

The price went up....cant afford....

Yeah I heard about that, people are also making their own epipens now.

 

[RaphaCam]

nvm

 

[seekeroftruth777]

What is Fr. Josiah doing that not on the side of Orthodoxy?

Grandstanding to the pusillanimous with no regard, or no right regard, for the consequences.

Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.

Disregarding good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it. Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight: The simpering resentment befitting bonded slaves, not slaves of God.

Caesaropapism leading to clerical blasphemy of a church service.

Abject lies about the Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom.

Participating in an evil, anti-Christian thinktank.

Possibly encouraging SCOBA to disregard good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it, or speaking or composing for them in this manner. Possibly condoning and advertising the fabrication of violent threat events for grandstanding purposes (see the recent "allahu akhbar" affair).

Allowing icon-like photo depictions of himself on his website (though I think the halo sun behind his head pic has been taken down).

Etc.

We stand against evil. Gird thyself, etc.

You made your point, those are scary points 

What the anti-Christian think tank he belongs to? That very new news to me.

What is this Clerical Blasphemy of a Church Service? I am shocked to hear that

Okay the Icon like photos is just flat wrong, Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Hmm he allowed to have a show on AFR, the more I listen to their shows it does seem Protestant-lite for Orthodox.

 

[Porter ODoran]

Don't take the post too seriously, Seekeroftruth. It's a hodge-podge pretty clearly meant to amuse its author and (he hopes) other similarly cynical minds.

 

[NicholasMyra]

Don't take the post too seriously, Seekeroftruth. It's a hodge-podge pretty clearly meant to amuse its author and (he hopes) other similarly cynical minds.

There's nothing funny about this.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Don't take the post too seriously, Seekeroftruth. It's a hodge-podge pretty clearly meant to amuse its author and (he hopes) other similarly cynical minds.

There's nothing funny about this.

Then would you provide some specifics instead of slogans? 

 

[NicholasMyra]

What the anti-Christian think tank he belongs to? That very new news to me.

http://blog.acton.org/archives/87416-mcdonalds-as-social-enterprise-capitalisms-community-center.html

What is this Clerical Blasphemy of a Church Service? I am shocked to hear that

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=65646.0

Okay the Icon like photos is just flat wrong, Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

 

[juliogb]

What is the problem with that think tank?

 

[Samn!]

What is this Clerical Blasphemy of a Church Service? I am shocked to hear that

He is probably referring to the service where this sermon: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/thearena/a_black_day_supreme_folly_from_the_supremes was given. At that same service, he wore black vestments and afterwards held some kind of lamentation service.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

At that same service, he wore black vestments and afterwards held some kind of lamentation service.

Did he stitch a copy of the US Constitution onto a winding sheet or something? 

 

[Clemente]

What the anti-Christian think tank he belongs to? That very new news to me.

http://blog.acton.org/archives/87416-mcdonalds-as-social-enterprise-capitalisms-community-center.html

What is this Clerical Blasphemy of a Church Service? I am shocked to hear that

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=65646.0

Okay the Icon like photos is just flat wrong, Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

1. Are you referring to the Acton Institute, which enjoys contributions from numerous Orthodox priests and has been featured on AFR? Or rather McDonalds? That was a complete fail.

2. That was hardly blasphemy. Do you know what that word means? Fail

3. The photo is hardly an attempt to imitate an icon. The secular press does not typically do that consciously.

If this is the substance of your accusations, you are just calumnising an Orthodox priest. You should apologise.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.

Disregarding good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it. Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight: The simpering resentment befitting bonded slaves, not slaves of God.

Abject lies about the Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom.

I would like to know specifics about whatever these sentences refer to. 

 

[RaphaCam]

St. Balotelli, pray for us?

 

[Clemente]

Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14

http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?

Any other baseless calumny against an influential and well-respected Orthodox priest that you would like to share?

 

[NicholasMyra]

Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.

Disregarding good rhetorical tradition in favor of a formulaic betrayal of it. Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight: The simpering resentment befitting bonded slaves, not slaves of God.

Abject lies about the Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom.

I would like to know specifics about whatever these sentences refer to.

1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
2. His homofascist speech, several podcasts, etc. under the guise of imitating patristic Aristotelian rhetoric's harsh polemics. However an ossified rhetorical practice which fails to speak well to its audience goes against the very principles of rhetoric the Fathers would have employed.
3. Many instances in "Marriage and Virginity According to St. John Chrysostom." Specific example: Pg. 198 he says St. John told husbands to send unruly wives to bed without dinner, source does not support this claim.

 

[NicholasMyra]

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?

Fr. Jacobse runs The American Orthodox Institute and I consider that anti-Christian, but that's another thread.

 

[Clemente]

Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight: The simpering resentment befitting bonded slaves, not slaves of God.

Abject lies about the Fathers, especially St. John Chrysostom.

I would like to know specifics about whatever these sentences refer to.

I would like to know specifics as well. I have listened to a number of talks by Father Trenham, one of the most popular Orthodox speakers on Ancient Faith Radio. I have heard nothing at all from him that approximates even tangentially what you have accused here.

Moreover, your accusation of "Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight" is demonstrably wrong, as illustrated in the photo you provided which shows him actually fighting publicly with the world  to preserve a publicly displayed cross. You've undermined your own case and we call all see it.

What a bunch of rubbish. Seriously, you should be ashamed.

 

[NicholasMyra]

Moreover, your accusation of "Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight" is demonstrably wrong, as illustrated in the photo you provided which shows him actually fighting publicly with the world  to preserve a publicly displayed cross.

If you think that's fighting the world, then you don't know what Christianity is.

What a bunch of rubbish. Seriously, you should be ashamed.

No. You should be ashamed for not opposing him, we should all be ashamed for letting it get to the point where this is who is speaking for the faith.

 

[Georgios Scholarios]

I think NicholasMyra was not right to bring up a list of Fr. Josiah's (supposed) wrong-doings the way he did (to be honest, it seemed sort of gossip-like - I'm not judging him, since I myself got a bit excited to see his list).

However, just because someone or something is popular among certain Orthodox is not automatic vindication. I think NicholasMyra might have valid points about places like the Acton Institute. If I understand them right (which I might not, I've never really looked into it), it seems like a poor attempt to fully reconcile Christianity and right-wing American politics.

EDIT: but seriously, why can't Fr. Josiah always use a mild tone, like he did so well in the Mark Takano video? The "secular world is corrupt" thing doesn't actually convince many, and it's kind of bizarre when you compare Western society now to ancient society. It's not perfect, but certainly better.

 

[Clemente]

Moreover, your accusation of "Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight" is demonstrably wrong, as illustrated in the photo you provided which shows him actually fighting publicly with the world  to preserve a publicly displayed cross.

If you think that's fighting the world, then you don't know what Christianity is.

What a bunch of rubbish. Seriously, you should be ashamed.

No. You should be ashamed for not opposing him, we should all be ashamed for letting it get to the point where this is who is speaking for the faith.

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?

Fr. Jacobse runs The American Orthodox Institute and I consider that anti-Christian, but that's another thread.

No, no, go ahead, explain now why the American Orthodox Institute is "anti-Christian". In fact, please provide a list of all the "anti-Christian" Orthodox sites, so I don't get sucked in to their "anti-Christian" heresy. Please provide substance as to why they are "anti-Christisn", or, in absence of evidence, stop calumnising Orthodox priests in good standing.

 

[Iconodule]

The American "Orthodox" Institute is a rather ridiculous attempt to marry Christianity with liberal ideology. It is, of course, Satanic.

Fr Josiah Trenham is an embarrassment to all who bear the name of Christ. Barring his repentance, may his ministry be soon curtailed.

 

[NicholasMyra]

No, no, go ahead, explain now why the American Orthodox Institute is "anti-Christian".

Georgios Scholarios was close, really it seeks to marry free market economics with Christianity, give it Christian approval, show that Christianity birthed and supports it etc.

 

[Clemente]

Moreover, your accusation of "Teaching people to cower in fear of "the world," as if it is stronger, and would win in a fair fight" is demonstrably wrong, as illustrated in the photo you provided which shows him actually fighting publicly with the world  to preserve a publicly displayed cross.

i
If you think that's fighting the world, then you don't know what Christianity is.

What a bunch of rubbish. Seriously, you should be ashamed.

No. You should be ashamed for not opposing him, we should all be ashamed for letting it get to the point where this is who is speaking for the faith.

Then I guess Metr. Hilarion Alfeyev doesn't know what Christianity is.

"We should not remain silent and look with indifference at a world that is gradually deteriorating. Rather, we should proclaim Christian morality and teach it openly not only in our churches, but also in public spaces including secular schools, universities and in the arena of the mass media. We do not presume to impose our views on anybody but we wish that our voice be heard by those who want to hear it. Unfortunately, we cannot convert the whole world to God, but we should at least make people think about the meaning of life and the existence of absolute spiritual and moral values. We are obliged to bear witness to the true faith always and everywhere so that at least some may be saved (1 Cor. 9:22)"https://mospat.ru/en/2010/09/10/news25819/

Do you want to calumnise Metr. Hilarion as well for speaking out against the acceptance of homosexuality and the need to be engaged.

Again, you should be ashamed for your calumny against now a number of Orthodox priests, completely unsupported by fact. Put up or shut up and apologise.

 

[Samn!]

2. That was hardly blasphemy. Do you know what that word means? Fail

It's definitely the case that a priest unilaterally inventing his own liturgical theatrics to make a political point is a big no-no and rather more appropriate to a megachurch than to Orthodoxy, whether you want to call that 'blasphemy' or something else.

Fr Josiah's extremely ill-informed talks about Islam that he's been going around the country giving, even as a 'Lenten retreat' are also quite alarming and very out of touch with the experience and witness of his Patriarchate of Antioch.

 

[Iconodule]

"We should not remain silent and look with indifference at a world that is gradually deteriorating. Rather, we should proclaim Christian morality and teach it openly not only in our churches, but also in public spaces including secular schools, universities and in the arena of the mass media. We do not presume to impose our views on anybody but we wish that our voice be heard by those who want to hear it. Unfortunately, we cannot convert the whole world to God, but we should at least make people think about the meaning of life and the existence of absolute spiritual and moral values. We are obliged to bear witness to the true faith always and everywhere so that at least some may be saved (1 Cor. 9:22

I agree with Met Hilarion, which is precisely why clerics like Fr Josiah should be vocally opposed when they proliferate poisonous worldly ideologies with a superficial Christian guise.

 

[Clemente]

"We should not remain silent and look with indifference at a world that is gradually deteriorating. Rather, we should proclaim Christian morality and teach it openly not only in our churches, but also in public spaces including secular schools, universities and in the arena of the mass media. We do not presume to impose our views on anybody but we wish that our voice be heard by those who want to hear it. Unfortunately, we cannot convert the whole world to God, but we should at least make people think about the meaning of life and the existence of absolute spiritual and moral values. We are obliged to bear witness to the true faith always and everywhere so that at least some may be saved (1 Cor. 9:22

I agree with Met Hilarion, which is precisely why clerics like Fr Josiah should be vocally opposed when they proliferate poisonous worldly ideologies with a superficial Christian guise.

No, no, go ahead, explain now why the American Orthodox Institute is "anti-Christian".

Georgios Scholarios was close, really it seeks to marry free market economics with Christianity, give it Christian approval, show that Christianity birthed and supports it etc.

Oh, I see. So if you disagree with one's political ideology, they are "anti-Christian". Or is it "anti-Christian" to even contemplate politics? If so, much of what is written here at OC.net is "anti-Christian".

If you think open discussions about the intersections faith and life are "anti-Christian", why do you post here?