Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

Onesimus

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augustin717 said:
Onesimus said:
augustin717 said:
It does. Are you afraid to express your real opinions on homosexuality at work?
I work with people that throw around the word faggot all the time. Nôbody has  taken  action against them .
Yes.  And I'm increasingly afraid to share them here.
you prob get a fat check every two weeks for that sacrifice. I dont beignet do my openly homophobic coworkers . Every job has its drawbacks and advantages .
You are a real piece of work.  You know nothing about me.
 

augustin717

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If you wanna job where homophobia doesn't need to cover itself in circumlocutions I can give you some tips.
 

augustin717

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I dunno , just saying I know jobs where saying it as you really feel is of no concern to the employer as long as you sand that hardwood floor well and know how to put up a drywall.
 

ialmisry

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augustin717 said:
If I didn't know first hand,  people 'affected' by others' homosexuality I wouldn't have said anything ; but I know what that sort of suffering usually amounts to: fear of loss of respectability in whatever social group they are part ( what are they gonna say that we brought up a [ insert slur] ?)  or  some genuine hysterics that you know this is the only sin sure to land someone directly in the inferno . Usually it's the first thing though.
On the other hand I know people who at least at some point of their lives were homeless because their families thought they brought shame to them.

Now tell me more how pain isn't quantifiable .
ialmisry said:
 

ialmisry

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augustin717 said:
Onesimus said:
minasoliman said:
I thought Mor made it clear what it is about Fr. Josiah's methods he was criticizing.  And don't bring up him being a moderator.  He's talking to you as a fellow poster as well as an Orthodox Christian. 

Let's consider another Orthodox priest.  Fr. Thomas Hopko clearly agrees with Fr. Josiah on the essentials, including homosexuality, but I heard very little if not any criticism of his methods when dealing with the same exact subject.  It's not about ignoring the debate or having a "Pink Mafia" agenda.  It's about knowing how to approach the subject correctly and with compassion without compromising Orthodoxy.
"Correctly" according to who?    You?

Is it possible that Clemente needs some compassion shown for his POV? 

Or is compassion only compassion when it is shown for people struggling on one end of this issue?

There are people hurting on the other end too, and frankly no one thinks they need compassion. 

WheN on sees what they consider "melodrama" perhaps they might take a moment to consider what some of us have experienced with this tearing apart our families, tearing apart churches, etc.  compassion means thinking about the pain that is being felt by others as well, and perhaps recognizing that pain in their writing.
Too lazy to look it up now but this reminds me of a meme that went like this : on this doll, show me exactly where is homosexuality hurting YOU.
same place where ISIL throwing homosexuals off of buildings is hurting YOU.
 

ialmisry

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augustin717 said:
I dunno , just saying I know jobs where saying it as you really feel is of no concern to the employer as long as you sand that hardwood floor well and know how to put up a drywall.
you mean the lesbians at Home Depot?
 

Charles Martel

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minasoliman said:
Charles Martel said:
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.

If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america
Moderator hat on:

I'm going to ask you Charles to substantiate your claim that Mor Ephrem encourages sodomy.  If you cannot substantiate this claim, then I will give you a 45% warning based on the fact that the last time you received an ad hominem warning was with 40%.

You have 24 hours to fulfill my request.

Mina
Are you asking me to substantiate on this thread or a pm?



 

Charles Martel

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Mor Ephrem said:
Charles Martel said:
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins...
Of course, for that you'd have to first admit to having committed specific sins, which is a luxury not afforded others, who, whether or not they have admitted to engaging in certain sins, or even in spite of denying it or admitting repentance, are assumed to just be totally lost in sin.

...and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.
You need not remind me of the Church's teaching on homosexuality, I'm well aware of it and accept it.  If you can point to any statements of mine here or in any other thread in which I have challenged or rejected the teaching and practice of the Church regarding homosexuality (NB: the Church, not your denomination), please do so. 

But I don't think you can.  I don't think Clemente can.  I don't think any of you can.

The real problem is that I look at "homosexuals" or "sodomites" or "LGBT people" or whatever you want to call them and I see people, whereas you see only incarnate sins, abominations, false dogmas, and corruption.  The instinct to reject those things, to say that there can be no good relationship with them, is good, but your equation is bad.  You have to see people.  People created in the image of God.  People for whom Christ died.  People like us, all of whom are called to much more and much better than we want.  If you only see the sin and not the person, your "religion" sucks, your "faith" is invalid, and "the measure you give will be the measure you get". 

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.
If "we're all sinners" is a sincere comment, then this realisation about yourself should make you feel some compassion or empathy for others.  Some sin less than you, others sin more than you, some sin less seriously than you, others sin more seriously than you, but "we're all sinners" means "I'm a sinner", which means if I want to be shown mercy, I have to show mercy. 

But that's not what you said.  You said "it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is (sic) a sinner".  That's true when it comes to "Sodomy is wrong" (or, for that matter, "[insert any sin's name] is wrong").  But it empties "we're all sinners" of any meaning.  It's just a throw-away, like "Some of my best friends are Roman Catholics" would seem to you if I went on to describe all the ways your denomination is a false religion.

If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america
I'm sorry, I should've been more clear that my question was specifically addressed to you.  I'll try again:

If you, Charles Martel, are guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?  What does that look like?
I will answer you point for point on this post, but I just worked a double shift and am dog tired  and I had to witness a terrible incident late in the day, so right now, I'm really not in the mood, but I'll tell you something, you're about getting on my last nerve referring to my "denomination" and I never go out of my way labelling the Eastern Church with such nonsense.

So you and your disrespect can beat it.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Charles Martel said:
I will answer you point for point on this post, but I just worked a double shift and am dog tired  and I had to witness a terrible incident late in the day, so right now, I'm really not in the mood, but I'll tell you something, you're about getting on my last nerve referring to my "denomination" and I never go out of my way labelling the Eastern Church with such nonsense.

So you and your disrespect can beat it.
Take all the time you need to take care of yourself, Charles.  If I'm not dead, I'll be around. 
 

Alveus Lacuna

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FatherGiryus said:
These days, having unprotected sex ten times in ~15 years is nothing to brag about.
Are you seriously backhandedly mocking this priest's sex life? Your poorly veiled allusions to difficulties with him in the past were obvious enough, but this is beneath you.
 

minasoliman

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Charles Martel said:
minasoliman said:
Charles Martel said:
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.

If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america
Moderator hat on:

I'm going to ask you Charles to substantiate your claim that Mor Ephrem encourages sodomy.  If you cannot substantiate this claim, then I will give you a 45% warning based on the fact that the last time you received an ad hominem warning was with 40%.

You have 24 hours to fulfill my request.

Mina
Are you asking me to substantiate on this thread or a pm?
on the thread
 
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Okay so as Orthodox Christians, without falling into error, or heterodoxy, how are we suppose to address the issue of homosexuality, and the LGBT movement as it pertains to Holy Tradition, and Scripture of the Church?

P.S. - Can we keep civil on here anymore?
 

FinnJames

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Onesimus said:
My family is being torn apart by this at the moment in probably the most disturbing way I can imagine.  If I could point to the rift in my soul, I would.  There are children being effected by it in a way that is beyond imagination.

I guess that's part of that "compassion."  Assuming that it has no effect on others.
About a page and a half of posts came in while I was sleeping, so my reply is a bit late.

The quoted message seems to me to be a substantive issue that needs its own thread--and level-headed discussion.
 

NicholasMyra

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seekeroftruth777 said:
Okay so as Orthodox Christians, without falling into error, or heterodoxy, how are we suppose to address the issue of homosexuality, and the LGBT movement as it pertains to Holy Tradition, and Scripture of the Church?
I think Iconodule made a long post with what you want.
 

Clemente

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Mor Ephrem said:
[quote author=Clemente link

Does your knowing him personally give you more credibility to critique him than someone who has listened to hours of his sermons?
More credibility?  No, not necessarily.  My point was not that I have more credibility to criticise him, but rather that for me he is a real person first, not some ideological hero or enemy that I'm reacting to.
What a ridiculous argument! Who here doesn't think he is a "real" person? Me? Who has made him out to be a hero? I haven't ever heard hours of lectures from a non-real person. I have already said in this thread that I disagree with him on certain matters, such as legalised SSM, but that I appreciate his perspective.

What about knowing him in real life now gives you more credibility to criticise him? Is there some personal foible? Are you peddling in innuendo?

It is easy to say you know him, but then you criticise him, "heart" prurient jokes about him (made by a priest, no less), and then hide behind your anonymous moniker. That is cowardice.
 

Charles Martel

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minasoliman said:
Charles Martel said:
minasoliman said:
Charles Martel said:
I laughed at the juxtaposition of "no one's declaring they're not a sinner" with "I'm just obeying God". 
I still fail to see what your getting at. I never said I never once didn't obey God's Law, of course I sinnned, I sin all the time, but i'm not on here making excuses for my sins and I certainly don't confirm others in theirs. But, you and most other sodomite-encouragers on here always revert to the same old tired argument that anyone who points out the abomination of homosexuality and the Church's utter rejection of it are just throwing stones from glass houses. A complete false dichotomy on the issue of sodomy.

Sodomy is wrong , it matters not whether or not me or anyone is is a "sinner". We're all sinners.

If you're guilty of breaking God's law, how are you held accountable?
One way or another when you violate the Natural Law it has an adverse effect on the individual, nation or culture in one form or another. We are already beginning to reap what we have sowed by all the  sins of the flesh that we have been publicly  peddeling for the last 50 or so yrs. And now we are legitimizing sodomy, it's only a matter of time before we self destruct in this abhorrent "lifestyle". you might not want to admit it, but but we will be held accountable.

What does that look like?
http://www.hivplusmag.com/prevention/2015/09/25/shocking-stats-stds-america
Moderator hat on:

I'm going to ask you Charles to substantiate your claim that Mor Ephrem encourages sodomy.  If you cannot substantiate this claim, then I will give you a 45% warning based on the fact that the last time you received an ad hominem warning was with 40%.

You have 24 hours to fulfill my request.

Mina
Are you asking me to substantiate on this thread or a pm?
on the thread
Well, first of all, I didn't say he "encourages" sodomy, so you can retract your false accusation.

What I said was that he  and some others who post on here are encouraging sodomites who are hell bent in their rejection of official Church doctrine of it's rejection of the sin of sodomy when Mor and those I mentioned seem to go on the attack on those like myself who take a hard line backing Tradition and ORTHODOXY when it comes to the sin of Sodom and any other sins of the flesh.Maybe he doesn't see it that way, but from my vantage point, he always seems to want to out me as a hypocrite who has no right accusing others engaging, even trying to justify their obstinacy in the completely immoral act of sodomy.

At any rate, what I percieve here in your threat in moderation is a retaliation by you and mor against me for my refusal to go along with the program of "tolerance" of this sinful act or any of it's protagonists all in the name of "charity" and trying to evangelize them, when the both of you could care less how many of those you chase away from the Church and even Christianity who might view your soft stance and attack on traditionalists as typical of weak Christians who can't even back up something as simple as telling the unrepentant homosexual he is wrong and Christianity is incompatible with sodomy in any form.

But you go ahead and make special exceptions for the advocates of sodomy while you bring the hammer down on those who vehemently oppose it, just like in the secular world. Silence all oppostion. This is typical of all that is wrong with the Church today, there really is no difference in many instances between the world and it's political correctness or the approach and policies of many christians and clergy out there who actually attack people like Fr. Josiah or myself making a stand against sodomy.

I would like to elaborate more on this and my response to your request of substansiation, but due to time constraints in my work schedule, time is a luxury I do not have right now.So you go ahead and and moderate me for "ad hominem" when that is clearly not my intent. But my position on sodomy and Mor's intent remains the same.
 

FinnJames

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Charles Martel said:
But you go ahead and make special exceptions for the advocates of sodomy while you bring the hammer down on those who vehemently oppose it, just like in the secular world. Silence all oppostion.
Silence all opposition? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Look in the mirror.

By the way, I've had a fairly lengthy exchange of private posts with Mor Ephram about homosexuality. At no time did he deviate from Orthodox teaching on the subject. So if you want to fault him for pandering to sodomites, you're barking up the wrong tree.
 

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Onesimus said:
I've spent my life as an advocate of homosexual rights until I became Orthodox.  I lived with homosexuals, voted for homosexual marriage, and all number of things I no longer believe to be beneficial to people, churches, culture, faith, etc.  but that doe. Not mean I still don't love them and minister to them. 
I'd be curious how that happened.  I actually moved in the opposite direction.  I never hated gays, I just didn't understand them- I was more self-absorbed.  The more I understood, the more sympathetic I became.  So I'm curious how someone could come to embrace an emnity to gay rights after supporting gay rights. 


 
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