Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

augustin717

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This priest is a drama Queen . This satisfactotrily explains it all.
 

Clemente

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Iconodule said:
Clemente said:
"We should not remain silent and look with indifference at a world that is gradually deteriorating. Rather, we should proclaim Christian morality and teach it openly not only in our churches, but also in public spaces including secular schools, universities and in the arena of the mass media. We do not presume to impose our views on anybody but we wish that our voice be heard by those who want to hear it. Unfortunately, we cannot convert the whole world to God, but we should at least make people think about the meaning of life and the existence of absolute spiritual and moral values. We are obliged to bear witness to the true faith always and everywhere so that at least some may be saved (1 Cor. 9:22
I agree with Met Hilarion, which is precisely why clerics like Fr Josiah should be vocally opposed when they proliferate poisonous worldly ideologies with a superficial Christian guise.
Another completely scurrilous and unsupported accusation against an Orthodox priest in good standing. Wow, this thread is amazing for its lack of substance.
 

Mor Ephrem

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NicholasMyra said:
1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
Interesting. 

John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter?  Is not the holy and august mountain said:
Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
 

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While NicholasMyra and Iconodule make fair criticisms of Fr. Josiah - after all, he's very public about what he says, so he should expect criticism - it's certainly extreme to accuse him of being "an embarrassment to all who bear the name of Christ" (!). Christ said if you love only those who love you, what credit is there? I think we should refrain from strong language like that.



 

Mor Ephrem

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Samn! said:
Clemente said:
2. That was hardly blasphemy. Do you know what that word means? Fail
It's definitely the case that a priest unilaterally inventing his own liturgical theatrics to make a political point is a big no-no and rather more appropriate to a megachurch than to Orthodoxy, whether you want to call that 'blasphemy' or something else.
+1

Fr Josiah's extremely ill-informed talks about Islam that he's been going around the country giving, even as a 'Lenten retreat' are also quite alarming and very out of touch with the experience and witness of his Patriarchate of Antioch.
To be fair, it's not the first time American convert clergy were out of step with the experience and witness of their Patriarchate of Antioch, and it's likely not the last time. 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
Interesting. 

John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter?  Is not the holy and august mountain said:
Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
It has been evidenced in other threads that these two do not accept the sanctification of matter.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Antonis said:
Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
Interesting. 

John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter?  Is not the holy and august mountain said:
Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
It has been evidenced in other threads that these two do not accept the sanctification of matter.
Which two? 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
Interesting. 

[quote author=John of Damascus]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter?  Is not the holy and august mountain, the place of the skull, matter?  Is not the life-giving and life-bearing rock, the holy tomb, the source of the resurrection, matter?  Is not the ink and the all-holy book of the Gospels matter?  Is not the life-bearing table, which offers us the bread of life, matter?  Is not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and tablets and bowls are fashioned?  And, before all these things, is not the body and blood of my Lord matter?  Either do away with reverence and veneration for all these or submit to the tradition of the Church and allow the veneration of images of God and friends of God, sanctified by name and therefore overshadowed by the grace of the divine Spirit.  Do not abuse matter; for it is not dishonourable; this is the view of the Manichees.

On the Divine Images, I.16
[/quote]

That's all true and good, we should honor holy things. Nevertheless we don't grandstand for wood, non-human clay and stones in this age as if this is how the endurance of holy things stands or falls. We don't travel abroad seeking some if others are near. We don't lament their destruction as though they are persons. They endure insofar as Christ and his kingdom endures, insofar as the sons of God endure, where holy things cannot be destroyed. We especially don't portray the discorporation of stone and dust artifices in this age as a great loss inflicted by "the world."

The most high does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Unless St. Basil irecconcilably opposes St. John when he says,

"...you...mourn, in giving gold, and silver, and goods — that is, offering stones and dust — in order to obtain the blessed life."
 

Mor Ephrem

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NicholasMyra said:
Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
Interesting. 

[quote author=John of Damascus]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter?  Is not the holy and august mountain, the place of the skull, matter?  Is not the life-giving and life-bearing rock, the holy tomb, the source of the resurrection, matter?  Is not the ink and the all-holy book of the Gospels matter?  Is not the life-bearing table, which offers us the bread of life, matter?  Is not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and tablets and bowls are fashioned?  And, before all these things, is not the body and blood of my Lord matter?  Either do away with reverence and veneration for all these or submit to the tradition of the Church and allow the veneration of images of God and friends of God, sanctified by name and therefore overshadowed by the grace of the divine Spirit.  Do not abuse matter; for it is not dishonourable; this is the view of the Manichees.

On the Divine Images, I.16
That's all true and good, we should honor holy things. Nevertheless we don't grandstand for wood, non-human clay and stones in this age as if this is how the endurance of holy things stands or falls. We don't travel abroad seeking some if others are near. We don't lament their destruction as though they are persons. They endure insofar as Christ and his kingdom endures, insofar as the sons of God endure, where holy things cannot be destroyed. We especially don't portray the discorporation of stone and dust artifices in this age as a great loss inflicted by "the world."

The most high does not dwell in temples made with hands.[/quote]

It seems you have a problem with your own history. 

Unless St. Basil irecconcilably opposes St. John when he says,

"...you...mourn, in giving gold, and silver, and goods — that is, offering stones and dust — in order to obtain the blessed life."
Citation? 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Antonis said:
Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
Interesting. 

John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter?  Is not the holy and august mountain said:
Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
It has been evidenced in other threads that these two do not accept the sanctification of matter.
Which two?
Pardon me, I meant NicholasMyra.

After his most recent post, one wonders if he recognizes the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the trials endured by the faithful who grandstanded and even died for the public exhibition of mere wood and stone.
 

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Antonis said:
After his most recent post, one wonders if he recognizes the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the trials endured by the faithful who grandstanded and even died for the public exhibition of mere wood and stone.
They died peacefully for the veneration of icons, relics, crosses and statues in the church and the attendant theology (except for those who purportedly killed a soldier removing an icon).

Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians, and not against non-Orthodox church/state authorities, and not with losing-battle rhetoric. And for them it was life or death, not camp/news media.

Yeah, it's a theological tension: Honoring and affirming material things as holy while not holding on to them, as they are in this age, as something to be grasped. But unless we work with it, we devolve into absurdities. Christianity teaches both.
 

Mor Ephrem

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NicholasMyra said:
...Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians...
The original cross was constructed and erected by authorities of an idolatrous, pagan state egged on by unfaithful "sons of Aaron". 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
...Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians...
The original cross was constructed and erected by authorities of an idolatrous, pagan state egged on by unfaithful "sons of Aaron".
And the original cross was laid before the foundations of the world. Christ makes the Cross. Without Christ, it isn't what it is anymore.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Porter ODoran said:
Don't take the post too seriously, Seekeroftruth. It's a hodge-podge pretty clearly meant to amuse its author and (he hopes) other similarly cynical minds.
There's nothing funny about this.
Oh, believe me, I agree. By "amuse" I meant preening yourself on your own edginess and waiting with bated breath for some other cynical young person to laud you for it.
 

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Clemente said:
Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14

http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?

Any other baseless calumny against an influential and well-respected Orthodox priest that you would like to share?
Ick.
 

Iconodule

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Clemente said:
Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14

http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.
 
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Iconodule said:
Clemente said:
Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14

http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.
What is meant by Liberal? Classical Liberal? Economic Liberal? Progressive Liberal? it seems like a too open ended word.
 

Iconodule

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Take your pick. All the variations of liberalism have the same problems at their core.
 

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Iconodule said:
Clemente said:
Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14

http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.
This begs the question (readers are supposed to assume what "liberalism" is and that it is irreligious) and also sounds like a political concern.

By the way, what is the "true" "Christian social teaching"?
 

NicholasMyra

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Back on topic, either way: The Tbilisi event and speeches like it are anti-Christian, evil. They do not constitute merely being controversial, tone-deaf, over the top, hard. Nor is this a matter of sensitivity or political correctness. Rather, anti-Christian evil that must be rejected on the grounds that it is wicked and unjust.

It is worse for the church to harm the people of this order than for the people of this order to harm the church.

It is worse for the church to scandalize the people of this order through unrighteousness than for the people of this order to scandalize the church through unrighteousness.

It is worse for the works of Ba'al, Hestia or Mars to be done in the name of Christ than for those works to be done in any other name.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Back on topic, either way: The Tbilisi event and speeches like it are anti-Christian, evil. They do not constitute merely being controversial, tone-deaf, over the top, hard. Nor is this a matter of sensitivity or political correctness. Rather, anti-Christian evil that must be rejected on the grounds that it is wicked and unjust.

It is worse for the church to harm the people of this order than for the people of this order to harm the church.

It is worse for the church to scandalize the people of this order through unrighteousness than for the people of this order to scandalize the church through unrighteousness.

It is worse for the works of Ba'al, Hestia or Mars to be done in the name of Christ than for those works to be done in any other name.
You seem to be forgetting that there is more at stake than the two supposed opponents in this supposed battle. Namely, the welfare of people of all kinds, and the glory of God. If we look at the world in terms of favorite controversies, we will always be blind to true needs and true answers.
 

Mor Ephrem

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NicholasMyra said:
Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
...Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians...
The original cross was constructed and erected by authorities of an idolatrous, pagan state egged on by unfaithful "sons of Aaron".
And the original cross was laid before the foundations of the world. Christ makes the Cross. Without Christ, it isn't what it is anymore.
I agree, which is why I find your calling it "stones and dust" to be rather disgusting for a professing Christian. 
 

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"Homofascist" is a fun word and I intend to use it in conversation soon.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Antonis said:
After his most recent post, one wonders if he recognizes the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the trials endured by the faithful who grandstanded and even died for the public exhibition of mere wood and stone.
They died peacefully for the veneration of icons, relics, crosses and statues in the church and the attendant theology (except for those who purportedly killed a soldier removing an icon).

Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians, and not against non-Orthodox church/state authorities, and not with losing-battle rhetoric. And for them it was life or death, not camp/news media.

Yeah, it's a theological tension: Honoring and affirming material things as holy while not holding on to them, as they are in this age, as something to be grasped. But unless we work with it, we devolve into absurdities.
Yes, they died as Christian martyrs do. Your clever statement that this was merely for the sake of these objects being venerated in churches is, however, incorrect. I recommend you read the Seventh Council as well as the hagiographies surrounding it again.


a single cross erected by sectarians
Not language you would use in another circumstance. I think Mor has sufficiently addressed this.

not against non-Orthodox church/state authorities
You're saying our Church has no history of defending holy things in public spaces from non-Orthodox authorities?

And for them it was life or death, not camp/news media
You're saying our Church has no history of witnessing that didn't end in death?


The images of Christ, the saints, and the instrument of our salvation are worthy to be displayed and ought to be displayed in public spaces. It is worth fighting for.

Your talk of theological tension is unrelated.
 

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''The American "Orthodox" Institute is a rather ridiculous attempt to marry Christianity with liberal ideology. It is, of course, Satanic. ''

Does liberal ideology here means classic economic free market liberalism or the political left and new left?
 

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hecma925 said:
"Homofascist" is a fun word and I intend to use it in conversation soon.
;D
or on a bumper sticker:
Love a homofascist today! Christ commands it!
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
To be fair, it's not the first time American convert clergy were out of step with the experience and witness of their Patriarchate of Antioch, and it's likely not the last time.
I hate how these American convert clergy talk so much about sin and morality. They are upsetting our nice ethnic social clubs. I'm just here for the borscht and baklava, not to speak out about homosexuality and such, which might offend my liberal friends.
 

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juliogb said:
''The American "Orthodox" Institute is a rather ridiculous attempt to marry Christianity with liberal ideology. It is, of course, Satanic. ''

Does liberal ideology here means classic economic free market liberalism or the political left and new left?
It's the difference between a gaping, gushing wound, and a gaping, gushing wound with a flimsy Band-Aid slapped onto it. The AOI/ Acton types seem to prefer the former. The position is generally labeled "neoliberal" nowadays.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
Iconodule said:
Clemente said:
Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14

http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015

This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.
This begs the question (readers are supposed to assume what "liberalism" is and that it is irreligious) and also sounds like a political concern.
Which begs the question... how are any of the agenda items not "political concerns"? And how is it kosher for anyone to pass off liberalism (any variant thereof) as the Orthodox social teaching?


By the way, what is the "true" "Christian social teaching"?
That's a complicated and difficult question which I trust you would agree is not best answered by resorting to John Locke, Adam Smith, or the Austrian school of economics. 
 

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It's the difference between a gaping, gushing wound, and a gaping, gushing wound with a flimsy Band-Aid slapped onto it. The AOI/ Acton types seem to prefer the former. The position is generally labeled "neoliberal" nowadays.
Sorry, I didn't understand.
 

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That's a complicated and difficult question which I trust you would agree is not best answered by resorting to John Locke, Adam Smith, or the Austrian school of economics. 

I am acquainted with Austrian School of Economics and classic liberalism, and I sincerely don't see how it fits in this question, these lines of thaught are for minimum state and private charity, how that can be anti-cristian?
 

Velsigne

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Clemente said:
mike said:
RaphaCam said:
Watch your words, he's still a priest.
And?

seekeroftruth777 said:
You watch your mouth Mike, it not ok talking about a priest that way
Is it ok for priests to talk like that?

, you seem real hostile to the faith lately.
Not really.
Fortunately, Father Trenham has learnt enough from St. John Chrysostom not to worry too much about criticism, especially when he stands on the side of Orthodoxy.
Yeah, but didn't he get marched to his death by an angry vain spoiled rotten Empress?
 

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They changed the closest women's bathroom at my workplace to a gender neutral bathroom.  They didn't change the men's bathroom, they changed the women's bathroom.

Maybe because men sometimes react voilently to transgendered people, but I am no really sure what their reasoning is.

In any case, I went in one day while the male janitor was cleaning up, and he asked me to leave!  I pointed out that both men and women can be in the bathroom now.  He said, "I know, I just don't want you in here until I'm done."  lol 

I actually just went in to ask him for some garbage bin liners, not to use the bathroom itself. 

Those men still knock and give a warning before they enter.  It's resistance to the idea that women shouldn't be allowed boundaries and a safe area to have their private moments.  They still show respect for boundaries. 
 

FinnJames

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Clemente said:
I'm just here for the borscht and baklava, ...
Send me the address of this gastronomic delight of a parish! And alert Fr Trenham to dust off his sermon against gluttony.  ;)
 

Georgios Scholarios

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juliogb said:
That's a complicated and difficult question which I trust you would agree is not best answered by resorting to John Locke, Adam Smith, or the Austrian school of economics. 
these lines of thaught are for minimum state and private charity, how that can be anti-cristian?
It seems to me that St. Augustine specifically attacks a very similar line of thought that pagans of his time held (<i>City of God</i>, 2.20):

[quote author=Augustine]
'As long as it endures,' they say, 'as long as it prospers amid plenty and can boast of victories and enjoy the security of peace, what do morals matter to us? What concerns us more is that everyone should become richer and richer, so as to be able to bear the costs of his daily excesses, and to lord it over his economically weaker fellows. Let the poor toady to the rich in order to fill their stomachs and enjoy indolent ease under their patronage. Let the rich use the poor to surround themselves with a crowd of satellites and to enhance their prestige . . . Rulers must not bother whether their people are virtuous, if only they can keep them subject. The people of the provinces must not obey the governors as guardians of their morals, but as managers of their affairs and purveyors of their pleasures. They are not to show them sincere respect, but cower before them in base servility. <b>As for laws, let them look to wrongs against property without bothering about moral propriety.
No one should be brought to court, except one who has done harm or nuisance to another's property, home, or limb, or to an unwilling party. As for the rest, each man can do his own sweet will with his goods, with his subjects, or with the goods or subjects of any others who consent. . .</b>'
[/quote]

To be fair, he's specifically attacking pagans who did not care about morality at all, which is certainly not true of modern right-wing Christian groups, but still it's clear that he thinks that the government should have a role to play in the citizens' moral life.

Also, here is St. Gregory the Great on buying grain from serfs (source):

[quote author=Gregory]
We have learned that the serfs of the Church are grievously burdened in the matter of prices of grain, so that the purchase price fixed for them is not observed in time of plenty. And it is our desire that the standard purchase price be observed in their regard at all times according to the official prices, whether the harvest be great or small.
[/quote]
 

Mor Ephrem

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NicholasMyra said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Citation?
St. Basil's Sermon to the Rich. See http://www.svspress.com/on-social-justice-st-basil-the-great/
Wasn't one of your complaints against Fr Josiah his "abject lies about the Fathers", which you supported by a claim that he says St John Chrysostom says one thing but the cited source does not support the claim? 

How interesting, then, that I read St Basil's To the Rich and found the words you quoted, but did not find any hint of what you invoked it to support. 

John of Damascus, a highly regarded theologian of your tradition, cites St Basil among others in his treatises On the Divine Images.  Clearly he did not view his teaching on images as irreconcilably opposed to St Basil's teaching, but in continuity with it--indeed, established upon it.  To the Rich doesn't contradict such a view.   

If Fr Josiah is guilty of "abject lies about the Fathers", at least he has you to keep him company. 
 
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