augustin717
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This priest is a drama Queen . This satisfactotrily explains it all.
Another completely scurrilous and unsupported accusation against an Orthodox priest in good standing. Wow, this thread is amazing for its lack of substance.Iconodule said:I agree with Met Hilarion, which is precisely why clerics like Fr Josiah should be vocally opposed when they proliferate poisonous worldly ideologies with a superficial Christian guise.Clemente said:"We should not remain silent and look with indifference at a world that is gradually deteriorating. Rather, we should proclaim Christian morality and teach it openly not only in our churches, but also in public spaces including secular schools, universities and in the arena of the mass media. We do not presume to impose our views on anybody but we wish that our voice be heard by those who want to hear it. Unfortunately, we cannot convert the whole world to God, but we should at least make people think about the meaning of life and the existence of absolute spiritual and moral values. We are obliged to bear witness to the true faith always and everywhere so that at least some may be saved (1 Cor. 9:22
Lol, my sig?Clemente said:Or is it "anti-Christian" to even contemplate politics?
Interesting.NicholasMyra said:1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter? Is not the holy and august mountain said:Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
+1Samn! said:It's definitely the case that a priest unilaterally inventing his own liturgical theatrics to make a political point is a big no-no and rather more appropriate to a megachurch than to Orthodoxy, whether you want to call that 'blasphemy' or something else.Clemente said:2. That was hardly blasphemy. Do you know what that word means? Fail
To be fair, it's not the first time American convert clergy were out of step with the experience and witness of their Patriarchate of Antioch, and it's likely not the last time.Fr Josiah's extremely ill-informed talks about Islam that he's been going around the country giving, even as a 'Lenten retreat' are also quite alarming and very out of touch with the experience and witness of his Patriarchate of Antioch.
It has been evidenced in other threads that these two do not accept the sanctification of matter.Mor Ephrem said:Interesting.NicholasMyra said:1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter? Is not the holy and august mountain said:Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
Which two?Antonis said:It has been evidenced in other threads that these two do not accept the sanctification of matter.Mor Ephrem said:Interesting.NicholasMyra said:1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter? Is not the holy and august mountain said:Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
[/quote]Mor Ephrem said:Interesting.NicholasMyra said:1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
[quote author=John of Damascus]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter? Is not the holy and august mountain, the place of the skull, matter? Is not the life-giving and life-bearing rock, the holy tomb, the source of the resurrection, matter? Is not the ink and the all-holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the life-bearing table, which offers us the bread of life, matter? Is not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and tablets and bowls are fashioned? And, before all these things, is not the body and blood of my Lord matter? Either do away with reverence and veneration for all these or submit to the tradition of the Church and allow the veneration of images of God and friends of God, sanctified by name and therefore overshadowed by the grace of the divine Spirit. Do not abuse matter; for it is not dishonourable; this is the view of the Manichees.
On the Divine Images, I.16
That's all true and good, we should honor holy things. Nevertheless we don't grandstand for wood, non-human clay and stones in this age as if this is how the endurance of holy things stands or falls. We don't travel abroad seeking some if others are near. We don't lament their destruction as though they are persons. They endure insofar as Christ and his kingdom endures, insofar as the sons of God endure, where holy things cannot be destroyed. We especially don't portray the discorporation of stone and dust artifices in this age as a great loss inflicted by "the world."NicholasMyra said:Mor Ephrem said:Interesting.NicholasMyra said:1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
[quote author=John of Damascus]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter? Is not the holy and august mountain, the place of the skull, matter? Is not the life-giving and life-bearing rock, the holy tomb, the source of the resurrection, matter? Is not the ink and the all-holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the life-bearing table, which offers us the bread of life, matter? Is not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and tablets and bowls are fashioned? And, before all these things, is not the body and blood of my Lord matter? Either do away with reverence and veneration for all these or submit to the tradition of the Church and allow the veneration of images of God and friends of God, sanctified by name and therefore overshadowed by the grace of the divine Spirit. Do not abuse matter; for it is not dishonourable; this is the view of the Manichees.
On the Divine Images, I.16
Citation?Unless St. Basil irecconcilably opposes St. John when he says,
"...you...mourn, in giving gold, and silver, and goods — that is, offering stones and dust — in order to obtain the blessed life."
St. Basil's Sermon to the Rich. See http://www.svspress.com/on-social-justice-st-basil-the-great/Mor Ephrem said:Citation?
Pardon me, I meant NicholasMyra.Mor Ephrem said:Which two?Antonis said:It has been evidenced in other threads that these two do not accept the sanctification of matter.Mor Ephrem said:Interesting.NicholasMyra said:1. The Mt. Rubidoux Cross affair.
John of Damascus][b]Is not the thrice-precious and thrice-blessed wood of the cross matter? Is not the holy and august mountain said:Performing bizarre public stunts to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust.
Abosolutely! I nominate this post for POST-OF-THE-Month. Way to go, Augustin!augustin717 said:This priest is a drama Queen . This satisfactotrily explains it all.
They died peacefully for the veneration of icons, relics, crosses and statues in the church and the attendant theology (except for those who purportedly killed a soldier removing an icon).Antonis said:After his most recent post, one wonders if he recognizes the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the trials endured by the faithful who grandstanded and even died for the public exhibition of mere wood and stone.
The original cross was constructed and erected by authorities of an idolatrous, pagan state egged on by unfaithful "sons of Aaron".NicholasMyra said:...Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians...
And the original cross was laid before the foundations of the world. Christ makes the Cross. Without Christ, it isn't what it is anymore.Mor Ephrem said:The original cross was constructed and erected by authorities of an idolatrous, pagan state egged on by unfaithful "sons of Aaron".NicholasMyra said:...Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians...
Oh, believe me, I agree. By "amuse" I meant preening yourself on your own edginess and waiting with bated breath for some other cynical young person to laud you for it.NicholasMyra said:There's nothing funny about this.Porter ODoran said:Don't take the post too seriously, Seekeroftruth. It's a hodge-podge pretty clearly meant to amuse its author and (he hopes) other similarly cynical minds.
Ick.Clemente said:Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14
http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015
This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
Any other baseless calumny against an influential and well-respected Orthodox priest that you would like to share?
In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.Clemente said:Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14
http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015
This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
What is meant by Liberal? Classical Liberal? Economic Liberal? Progressive Liberal? it seems like a too open ended word.Iconodule said:In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.Clemente said:Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14
http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015
This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
This begs the question (readers are supposed to assume what "liberalism" is and that it is irreligious) and also sounds like a political concern.Iconodule said:In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.Clemente said:Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14
http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015
This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
You seem to be forgetting that there is more at stake than the two supposed opponents in this supposed battle. Namely, the welfare of people of all kinds, and the glory of God. If we look at the world in terms of favorite controversies, we will always be blind to true needs and true answers.NicholasMyra said:Back on topic, either way: The Tbilisi event and speeches like it are anti-Christian, evil. They do not constitute merely being controversial, tone-deaf, over the top, hard. Nor is this a matter of sensitivity or political correctness. Rather, anti-Christian evil that must be rejected on the grounds that it is wicked and unjust.
It is worse for the church to harm the people of this order than for the people of this order to harm the church.
It is worse for the church to scandalize the people of this order through unrighteousness than for the people of this order to scandalize the church through unrighteousness.
It is worse for the works of Ba'al, Hestia or Mars to be done in the name of Christ than for those works to be done in any other name.
I agree, which is why I find your calling it "stones and dust" to be rather disgusting for a professing Christian.NicholasMyra said:And the original cross was laid before the foundations of the world. Christ makes the Cross. Without Christ, it isn't what it is anymore.Mor Ephrem said:The original cross was constructed and erected by authorities of an idolatrous, pagan state egged on by unfaithful "sons of Aaron".NicholasMyra said:...Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians...
Yes, they died as Christian martyrs do. Your clever statement that this was merely for the sake of these objects being venerated in churches is, however, incorrect. I recommend you read the Seventh Council as well as the hagiographies surrounding it again.NicholasMyra said:They died peacefully for the veneration of icons, relics, crosses and statues in the church and the attendant theology (except for those who purportedly killed a soldier removing an icon).Antonis said:After his most recent post, one wonders if he recognizes the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the trials endured by the faithful who grandstanded and even died for the public exhibition of mere wood and stone.
Not for the preservation of a single cross erected by sectarians, and not against non-Orthodox church/state authorities, and not with losing-battle rhetoric. And for them it was life or death, not camp/news media.
Yeah, it's a theological tension: Honoring and affirming material things as holy while not holding on to them, as they are in this age, as something to be grasped. But unless we work with it, we devolve into absurdities.
Not language you would use in another circumstance. I think Mor has sufficiently addressed this.a single cross erected by sectarians
You're saying our Church has no history of defending holy things in public spaces from non-Orthodox authorities?not against non-Orthodox church/state authorities
You're saying our Church has no history of witnessing that didn't end in death?And for them it was life or death, not camp/news media
;Dhecma925 said:"Homofascist" is a fun word and I intend to use it in conversation soon.
I hate how these American convert clergy talk so much about sin and morality. They are upsetting our nice ethnic social clubs. I'm just here for the borscht and baklava, not to speak out about homosexuality and such, which might offend my liberal friends.Mor Ephrem said:To be fair, it's not the first time American convert clergy were out of step with the experience and witness of their Patriarchate of Antioch, and it's likely not the last time.
It's the difference between a gaping, gushing wound, and a gaping, gushing wound with a flimsy Band-Aid slapped onto it. The AOI/ Acton types seem to prefer the former. The position is generally labeled "neoliberal" nowadays.juliogb said:''The American "Orthodox" Institute is a rather ridiculous attempt to marry Christianity with liberal ideology. It is, of course, Satanic. ''
Does liberal ideology here means classic economic free market liberalism or the political left and new left?
Which begs the question... how are any of the agenda items not "political concerns"? And how is it kosher for anyone to pass off liberalism (any variant thereof) as the Orthodox social teaching?Porter ODoran said:This begs the question (readers are supposed to assume what "liberalism" is and that it is irreligious) and also sounds like a political concern.Iconodule said:In fact they are. They equate "Orthodox Social Thought" with liberalism. They are actively deceiving people about Christian social teaching.Clemente said:Here are some recent Orthodox talks by priests at the Acton Institute:
AUGUST 18, 2015
East Meets West: Consumerism and Asceticism - Fr. Gregory Jensen
Asceticism is concerned with the “inner transformation of the human person, in his being progressively conformed to Christ.” Understood in this way, asceticism has a foundational role to play in any Christian response to the practical and anthropological challenges of consumerism.
46:56
AUGUST 18, 2015
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: Prophet and Critic - Fr. Johannes Jacobse
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the courageous Russian writer, contributed indispensably to bringing down the Soviet Union. Conventional Western opinion sees his story, too, as ending then. But the conflict of good against evil and truth against lies runs throughout the moral universe, not just the Soviet scene. Moreover, half of his writings are not yet in English. This course explores the unknown Solzhenitsyn.
48:08
AUGUST 18, 2015
Introduction to Orthodox Social Thought - Dylan Pahman
This course offers an introduction to fundamental principles for Orthodox Christian social thought.
46:22
AUGUST 18, 2015
Orthodoxy and Natural Law - Fr. Michael Butler
Eastern Orthodoxy has been ambivalent about natural law. This lecture considers how natural law thinking might work in distinctly Orthodox ways of considering the relationship between faith and reason and examines some implications that might be useful today.
54:14
http://www.ancientfaith.com/specials/acton_university_2015
This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
That's a complicated and difficult question which I trust you would agree is not best answered by resorting to John Locke, Adam Smith, or the Austrian school of economics.By the way, what is the "true" "Christian social teaching"?
Sorry, I didn't understand.It's the difference between a gaping, gushing wound, and a gaping, gushing wound with a flimsy Band-Aid slapped onto it. The AOI/ Acton types seem to prefer the former. The position is generally labeled "neoliberal" nowadays.
That's a complicated and difficult question which I trust you would agree is not best answered by resorting to John Locke, Adam Smith, or the Austrian school of economics.
Yeah, but didn't he get marched to his death by an angry vain spoiled rotten Empress?Clemente said:Fortunately, Father Trenham has learnt enough from St. John Chrysostom not to worry too much about criticism, especially when he stands on the side of Orthodoxy.mike said:And?RaphaCam said:Watch your words, he's still a priest.
Is it ok for priests to talk like that?seekeroftruth777 said:You watch your mouth Mike, it not ok talking about a priest that way
Not really., you seem real hostile to the faith lately.
Send me the address of this gastronomic delight of a parish! And alert Fr Trenham to dust off his sermon against gluttony.Clemente said:I'm just here for the borscht and baklava, ...
It seems to me that St. Augustine specifically attacks a very similar line of thought that pagans of his time held (<i>City of God</i>, 2.20):juliogb said:these lines of thaught are for minimum state and private charity, how that can be anti-cristian?That's a complicated and difficult question which I trust you would agree is not best answered by resorting to John Locke, Adam Smith, or the Austrian school of economics.
Wasn't one of your complaints against Fr Josiah his "abject lies about the Fathers", which you supported by a claim that he says St John Chrysostom says one thing but the cited source does not support the claim?NicholasMyra said:St. Basil's Sermon to the Rich. See http://www.svspress.com/on-social-justice-st-basil-the-great/Mor Ephrem said:Citation?