Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

juliogb

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Georgios Scholarios said:
juliogb said:
That's a complicated and difficult question which I trust you would agree is not best answered by resorting to John Locke, Adam Smith, or the Austrian school of economics. 
these lines of thaught are for minimum state and private charity, how that can be anti-cristian?
It seems to me that St. Augustine specifically attacks a very similar line of thought that pagans of his time held (<i>City of God</i>, 2.20):

[quote author=Augustine]
'As long as it endures,' they say, 'as long as it prospers amid plenty and can boast of victories and enjoy the security of peace, what do morals matter to us? What concerns us more is that everyone should become richer and richer, so as to be able to bear the costs of his daily excesses, and to lord it over his economically weaker fellows. Let the poor toady to the rich in order to fill their stomachs and enjoy indolent ease under their patronage. Let the rich use the poor to surround themselves with a crowd of satellites and to enhance their prestige . . . Rulers must not bother whether their people are virtuous, if only they can keep them subject. The people of the provinces must not obey the governors as guardians of their morals, but as managers of their affairs and purveyors of their pleasures. They are not to show them sincere respect, but cower before them in base servility. <b>As for laws, let them look to wrongs against property without bothering about moral propriety.
No one should be brought to court, except one who has done harm or nuisance to another's property, home, or limb, or to an unwilling party. As for the rest, each man can do his own sweet will with his goods, with his subjects, or with the goods or subjects of any others who consent. . .</b>'
To be fair, he's specifically attacking pagans who did not care about morality at all, which is certainly not true of modern right-wing Christian groups, but still it's clear that he thinks that the government should have a role to play in the citizens' moral life.

Also, here is St. Gregory the Great on buying grain from serfs (source):

[quote author=Gregory]
We have learned that the serfs of the Church are grievously burdened in the matter of prices of grain, so that the purchase price fixed for them is not observed in time of plenty. And it is our desire that the standard purchase price be observed in their regard at all times according to the official prices, whether the harvest be great or small.
[/quote]
[/quote]



Sorry, my english is not that good, but I didnt saw anything like a defense of welfare state in that St. Augustine text of Civitas Dei, and we also must keep in mind that Augustine's time was quite diferent from ours, back then they had slaves for instance and some people still saw the emperors as living gods, and most rich people back then were roman generals, poiticians and magistrates, all them somehow linked with government. However, the state is a monopoly based in violence, I don't see how state funded ''charity'' could be more christian than private funded charity.
 

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Do the Father's of the church have anything to say about a woman's right to safe public facilities?

The take away for me is that this gay pride movement is a male prurient interest movement at its core, with the various proclivities tacked on for the ride (except for NAMBLA men, they had to be denied a place at the table at first due to public outrage over male predatory behaviors against boys, one of the time honored methods of creating a male homosexual class, i.e. all male boarding schools in  England)  The male domain will be protected from odd interlopers in their restrooms, it will fall to the women to be put at risk.

I know for a fact that most women have a visceral fear of male intrusion into their toilet area where they are more vulnerable.  It is no secret that men are more aggressive and can mostly overpower women in a test of brute strength.  Women have to be wary all the time, in parking lots, in stores, walking into their home, being at home, at work against advances from co-workers and superiors seeking sexual favors, now from disturbed individuals given free reign to invite them into areas where they must partially disrobe to do the most basic function of the human body.

There have already been cases of predatory behavior of gender confused men against women in these gender neutral areas.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Antonis said:
Your talk of theological tension is unrelated.
It's an obfuscation with an agenda. 

[quote author=John of Damascus]If I venerate and reverence the cross and the lance and the reed and the sponge, with which the deicide Jews insulted my Lord and killed him, as the cause of my salvation, shall I not venerate the images of the sufferings of Christ, fashioned with a good purpose by those who believe, for his glory and in his memory?  If I venerate the image of the cross, made of whatever wood, shall I not venerate the image of the crucified one, showing the saving cross?  That I do not venerate matter is plain.  For once the pattern of the cross is destroyed, and (say) it is made of wood, then I will consign the wood to the fire, and so with the images. 

On the Divine Images II.19

Let everyone know, therefore, that anyone who attempts to destroy an image brought into being out of divine longing and zeal for the glory and memorial of Christ...and will not, out of longing for the one depicted, venerate or honour or greet it as a precious image and not as god, is an enemy of Christ and the holy Mother of God and the saints and a vindicator of the devil and his demons, and shows by his deed his sorrow that God and his saints are honoured and glorified, and the devil put to shame. 

On the Divine Images III.10[/quote]

Otherwise, we have to consider that the theological tension is within NicholasMyra and not in the teachings of the Fathers.  We can be forgiven for asking: if one of his problems with Fr Josiah is built on such shoddy foundations, what else might be? 
 

Mor Ephrem

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NicholasMyra said:
Back on topic, either way: The Tbilisi event and speeches like it are anti-Christian, evil.
Back on topic?  You were the one who, without prompting, posted reply no. 51.  At least one of your objections has been exposed for what it is.  And you are going to ask us to refocus ourselves on the OP and trust you when you make such categorical statements? 

Even if I can agree with you on "the Tblisi event and speeches like it", you are not a reliable messenger.  You are too compromised.
 

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Velsigne, juliogb, Georgios Scholarios, and anyone else who I didn't catch, knock off the off topic discussion please.  Thank you!

Also, I will advise you all that when discussing a clergy, do not directly attack his person, but only his views or corporate organizations.  Thank you!

Mina
 

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Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
To be fair, it's not the first time American convert clergy were out of step with the experience and witness of their Patriarchate of Antioch, and it's likely not the last time.
I hate how these American convert clergy talk so much about sin and morality. They are upsetting our nice ethnic social clubs. I'm just here for the borscht and baklava, not to speak out about homosexuality and such, which might offend my liberal friends.
Since you are in Europe, I will safely presume that I have more experience with the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America than you do.  Personally knowing a few bishops and a dozen or so priests of that Archdiocese, both cradle and convert, also helps.

If you want to know specifically what I had in mind, feel free to ask for an example, but don't pretend to know. 
 

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The Mount Rubidoux controversy was not over the incarnation, the sanctification of matter, or the veneration of icons. The cross itself was not necessarily slated for destruction in any case- it would likely have been moved somewhere else. The question was whether the cross should be exhibited on public land and the state sanction of a religious symbol. It was, in other words, a dispute between different conceptions of church/ state relations. It was in this context that Fr Josiah loudly swore to chain himself to the cross if necessary. I imagine he was rather disappointed when the situation was resolved by the land being privatized.

 

Mor Ephrem

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Iconodule said:
The Mount Rubidoux controversy was not over the incarnation, the sanctification of matter, or the veneration of icons. The cross itself was not necessarily slated for destruction in any case- it would likely have been moved somewhere else. The question was whether the cross should be exhibited on public land and the state sanction of a religious symbol. It was, in other words, a dispute between different conceptions of church/ state relations. It was in this context that Fr Josiah loudly swore to chain himself to the cross if necessary. I imagine he was rather disappointed when the situation was resolved by the land being privatized.
If you can imagine his disappointment over how the situation was resolved, I can imagine that his inspiration for getting involved in the first place was inspired by Orthodox theology. 

I'm no blind supporter of Fr Josiah's "methods", as I'm sure you know, but with regard to this incident, I'm just not confident in the spin with which it is being presented in this thread. 
 

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I think Iconodule has really given up the whole ruse, here. It has been clear the whole time that detractors on this thread take issue with what they perceive to be the person of Fr Josiah, rather than any of his particular practices. Reaching for this or that practice was merely the excuse--and a poorly-founded one at that, because, again, they relied on assumptions of his character.

 

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The ruse? Huh. I have never met Fr Josiah. All I know about him are his various public statements and actions, many of which are ridiculous and quite poisonous to the discourse in the Church on a variety of issues. So yes, I will say that I have a number of serious objections to Fr. Josiah, but stemming from his positions and his methods, not his character. I never made a secret about this.

Fr Josiah has made himself one of the leading, most visible voices in the small pond of American Orthodoxy. It's hard to travel far without encountering his influence. I think it's quite reasonable therefore to bring attention to the aspects of his ministry that are dangerous and harmful.

And if you are okay with a priest of the Church raving about "homofascists" in a country where violence and intimidation against gays is well known, shame on you. 
 

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augustin717 said:
This priest is a drama Queen . This satisfactotrily explains it all.
As far as I am seeing, this violates the rules concerning dealing with specific clergy and people.  I'm letting you off with a warning augustin717.  Be careful not to direct your attacks on a person's character.  Views, corporate organizations, actions, etc. in this section is okay to attack, but not the person.

God bless you.

Mina
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
To be fair, it's not the first time American convert clergy were out of step with the experience and witness of their Patriarchate of Antioch, and it's likely not the last time.
I hate how these American convert clergy talk so much about sin and morality. They are upsetting our nice ethnic social clubs. I'm just here for the borscht and baklava, not to speak out about homosexuality and such, which might offend my liberal friends.
Since you are in Europe, I will safely presume that I have more experience with the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America than you do.  Personally knowing a few bishops and a dozen or so priests of that Archdiocese, both cradle and convert, also helps.

If you want to know specifically what I had in mind, feel free to ask for an example, but don't pretend to know.
I don't pretend to know more than you about the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America and haven't said so. Though I live much of my year in Europe, I spend a significant amount of time each year in the States and commune in an Antiochian parish of both coverts and cradle Orthodox. In fact, it was a cradle Orthodox believer in the US that first recommended I listen to Fr. Josiah Trenham, who is much loved in this parish. It is precisely my experience in seeing how much you have in the US compared to us, much of it driven by convert priests--Ancient Faith Radio, Orthodox Christian Fellowships, the Orthodox Study Bible, etc.--that leads me to be mystified by the subtle and not so subtle anti-convert attitudes that seem prevalent here at OC.net.

I don't question at all your experience, but our mostly cradle priests here in Europe are occasionally out of step as well, without many of your advantages in American Orthodoxy. So I don't see why you should want to make a distinction, which seems unfair.
 

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Clemente said:
It is precisely my experience in seeing how much you have in the US compared to us, much of it driven by convert priests--Ancient Faith Radio, Orthodox Christian Fellowships, the Orthodox Study Bible, etc.--that leads me to be mystified by the subtle and not so subtle anti-convert attitudes that seem prevalent here at OC.net.
I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't consider mine an anti-convert attitude except to the degree that yours is an anti-ethnic or anti-cradle attitude: each of us can identify certain negative trends that disproportionately affect either of these groups and we call them out on it so that the overall situation improves for everyone. 
 
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Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
It is precisely my experience in seeing how much you have in the US compared to us, much of it driven by convert priests--Ancient Faith Radio, Orthodox Christian Fellowships, the Orthodox Study Bible, etc.--that leads me to be mystified by the subtle and not so subtle anti-convert attitudes that seem prevalent here at OC.net.
I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't consider mine an anti-convert attitude except to the degree that yours is an anti-ethnic or anti-cradle attitude: each of us can identify certain negative trends that disproportionately affect either of these groups and we call them out on it so that the overall situation improves for everyone.
Nice response, can we all try to respond like this. I'm sick of the cradle vs convert arguments, Orthodoxy is small as it is already in the states, division is what Satan wants.
 

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minasoliman said:
augustin717 said:
This priest is a drama Queen . This satisfactotrily explains it all.
As far as I am seeing, this violates the rules concerning dealing with specific clergy and people.  I'm letting you off with a warning augustin717.  Be careful not to direct your attacks on a person's character.  Views, corporate organizations, actions, etc. in this section is okay to attack, but not the person.

God bless you.

Mina
What then, is an acceptable way on this forum of criticizing Fr Trenham's highly theatrical and attention-seeking style? The style is the substance, more often than not.
 

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Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Clemente said:
Mor Ephrem said:
To be fair, it's not the first time American convert clergy were out of step with the experience and witness of their Patriarchate of Antioch, and it's likely not the last time.
I hate how these American convert clergy talk so much about sin and morality. They are upsetting our nice ethnic social clubs. I'm just here for the borscht and baklava, not to speak out about homosexuality and such, which might offend my liberal friends.
Since you are in Europe, I will safely presume that I have more experience with the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America than you do.  Personally knowing a few bishops and a dozen or so priests of that Archdiocese, both cradle and convert, also helps.

If you want to know specifically what I had in mind, feel free to ask for an example, but don't pretend to know.
I don't pretend to know more than you about the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America and haven't said so. Though I live much of my year in Europe, I spend a significant amount of time each year in the States and commune in an Antiochian parish of both coverts and cradle Orthodox. In fact, it was a cradle Orthodox believer in the US that first recommended I listen to Fr. Josiah Trenham, who is much loved in this parish. It is precisely my experience in seeing how much you have in the US compared to us, much of it driven by convert priests--Ancient Faith Radio, Orthodox Christian Fellowships, the Orthodox Study Bible, etc.--that leads me to be mystified by the subtle and not so subtle anti-convert attitudes that seem prevalent here at OC.net.

I don't question at all your experience, but our mostly cradle priests here in Europe are occasionally out of step as well, without many of your advantages in American Orthodoxy. So I don't see why you should want to make a distinction, which seems unfair.
FWIW, I'm a convert. However, a lot of American converts- maybe the majority who aren't converting for marriage- come from an evangelical background mired in culture wars. Unfortunately that particular journey has been treated as almost synonymous with the American Orthodox convert experience. The baggage they bring with them is almost invariably bad. So someone like Fr Josiah takes his reactionary, Calvinist inflected ideology and dresses it up in vestments and this is being shoved down everyone's throat as Orthodoxy. I'm not having it.
 

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Samn! said:
minasoliman said:
augustin717 said:
This priest is a drama Queen . This satisfactotrily explains it all.
As far as I am seeing, this violates the rules concerning dealing with specific clergy and people.  I'm letting you off with a warning augustin717.  Be careful not to direct your attacks on a person's character.  Views, corporate organizations, actions, etc. in this section is okay to attack, but not the person.

God bless you.

Mina
What then, is an acceptable way on this forum of criticizing Fr Trenham's highly theatrical and attention-seeking style? The style is the substance, more often than not.
Giving up on homosexual slur would be a good start for both augustin's and mike's criticisms.
 

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To call him a "drama queen" is an ad hominem.  If I was to call you a drama queen in this forum, I would be penalized for this.  But let's say I don't like your book, your speech, your organization, your actions.  Address those, don't address the person directly.  This is the third time I elucidated this in green text.  Is this a really difficult notion?  Don't insult the man, but criticize what he does.  It's not difficult to do as professional people.

If you are having trouble, and are worried about posting something that might sound like a direct attack on the person, send me a PM and I will gladly tell you what improvements I expect.

Mina
 

minasoliman

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Also, if there was another post that I had an issue with, I would have addressed it publicly like I did with augustin717.  Thus far, I have not seen anything that broke the rules of discussion.  That means whatever other posts made was in the clear.

Mina
 

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Samn! said:
minasoliman said:
augustin717 said:
This priest is a drama Queen . This satisfactotrily explains it all.
As far as I am seeing, this violates the rules concerning dealing with specific clergy and people.  I'm letting you off with a warning augustin717.  Be careful not to direct your attacks on a person's character.  Views, corporate organizations, actions, etc. in this section is okay to attack, but not the person.

God bless you.

Mina
What then, is an acceptable way on this forum of criticizing Fr Trenham's highly theatrical and attention-seeking style? The style is the substance, more often than not.
What you expressed here works for me:
What then, is an acceptable way on this forum of criticizing Fr Trenham's highly theatrical and attention-seeking style? The style is the substance, more often than not.
I agree with you.
 

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minasoliman said:
Don't insult the man, but criticize what he does.
That makes no sense. He's going to do what drama queens do cause that's what he is. augustin showed restraint by calling him that although he deserves a more severe rebuke.
 

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DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.
 

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Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'brood of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.
John the Baptist was risking his life and addressing those "snakes" directly. Fr Josiah is addressing a gathering of his ideological fellow travelers. No one was startled or provoked by his words. There's nothing tough about preaching to the choir.

Not to mention that the "homofascists" are quite powerless in Georgia and elsewhere.
 

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Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.

Fairly sure its darn difficult to love ones neighbor as ones self while calling them such things......
 

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Samn! said:
What then, is an acceptable way on this forum of criticizing Fr Trenham's highly theatrical and attention-seeking style? The style is the substance, more often than not.
The talk given at the World Congress of Families X on May 15th 2016, in Tbilisi Georgia https://youtu.be/HNXe4P_6dhw does seem to have a sensationalist tabloid press ring to it. But maybe that's a tempting way to preach to the already converted.

What bothers me most when Fr Trenham speaks about the 'gay agenda' is that he stirs up a lot of negative feelings but never states what sort of changes he would like to see. Whether one thinks people are 'born gay' or homosexuality is caused by demons, it's clear that people with homosexual feelings are not going to disappear. And it's also clear that not everyone is or is going to become Orthodox. So if Fr Trenham is going to speak for a political agenda, he really ought to say what changes he wants to happen. Since he appears to long to go back to the 'good old days' when homosexuality was criminalized and mentions but doesn't criticize Islam's punishment of death for sodomy, I guess what he hopes for lies somewhere between the two.

 

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Cyrillic said:
Arachne said:
Cyrillic said:
What's a good speech without a bit of provocation?
A good speech.
A bland one full of commonplaces, if you ask me. If you don't leave your audience startled you've done it wrong.
Then you should have asked 'What is a speech without provocation?'. A good speech is a good speech, provocation or not.
 

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Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.
It's bizarre to me cause calling someone a snake or viper is worse than drama queen. It's ridiculous clergy are granted some special privilege yet a few other posters who are earnestly living the faith get mocked and ridiculed.

EDIT: Yes I know you were talking about a different issue, I was extending my thoughts regarding what Mina posted.
 

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nothing said:
Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.
It's bizarre to me cause calling someone a snake or viper is worse than drama queen. It's ridiculous clergy are granted some special privilege yet a few other posters who are earnestly living the faith get mocked and ridiculed.

EDIT: Yes I know you were talking about a different issue, I was extending my thoughts regarding what Mina posted.
What's even worse is the tendency to reduce Christianity to 'niceness', or confusing the teachings of Christ with those of suburban soccer moms.
 

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Arachne said:
Cyrillic said:
Arachne said:
Cyrillic said:
What's a good speech without a bit of provocation?
A good speech.
A bland one full of commonplaces, if you ask me. If you don't leave your audience startled you've done it wrong.
Then you should have asked 'What is a speech without provocation?'. A good speech is a good speech, provocation or not.
What's a good speech without rhetorical questions?
 

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nothing said:
minasoliman said:
Don't insult the man, but criticize what he does.
That makes no sense. He's going to do what drama queens do cause that's what he is. augustin showed restraint by calling him that although he deserves a more severe rebuke.
Okay, so not only do you challenge my moderation publicly, but you also continue to do exactly what I said three times not to do.

50% penalty.

Anyone else want to challenge my mod directive, you only do it privately, not publicly.

Thank you.

Mina
 

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DeniseDenise said:
Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.

Fairly sure its darn difficult to love ones neighbor as ones self while calling them such things......
Would it be fair to suggest, then, that you are fairly sure it is darn difficult for Jesus to love his neighbour? 
 

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Cyrillic said:
What's even worse is Christianity being reduced to 'niceness' or the morality of suburban soccer moms.
I completely agree although that doesn't mean we sound like buffoons on stage bemoaning transgender bathrooms or mobile public sex apps. That's what Christianity is about? What happened to letting your light shine before others so they can see your good works which gives glory to your Father in heaven?

We should give our enemies dignity and kindness. This is part of a more excellent way to live as Christ has shown, if you want to live a more abundant life, one of joy, light, love, etc.

Has Fr. Josiah shown that? All I read here is more violence against gays. I don't see where he cares for the weak and powerless, which isn't that what homosexuals are in America? Christians aren't very kind to them eventhough God commanded otherwise.
 

DeniseDenise

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Mor Ephrem said:
DeniseDenise said:
Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.

Fairly sure its darn difficult to love ones neighbor as ones self while calling them such things......
Would it be fair to suggest, then, that you are fairly sure it is darn difficult for Jesus to love his neighbour?

No.. but we are not God, he is. 

I won't say it makes perfect sense, but its also not a carte blanche to call people such things...'I will just emulating Christ'

there are FAR more examples of him speaking more gently then there are him doing what he did in the temple to the vendors....
 

Mor Ephrem

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DeniseDenise said:
Mor Ephrem said:
DeniseDenise said:
Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.

Fairly sure its darn difficult to love ones neighbor as ones self while calling them such things......
Would it be fair to suggest, then, that you are fairly sure it is darn difficult for Jesus to love his neighbour?

No.. but we are not God, he is. 

I won't say it makes perfect sense, but its also not a carte blanche to call people such things...'I will just emulating Christ'

there are FAR more examples of him speaking more gently then there are him doing what he did in the temple to the vendors....
We are not God, but he became man and, "in the days of his flesh" (cf. Heb 5.7), said the things Cyrillic quoted as well as the whole "love your neighbour" bit.   

I agree that this does not constitute a carte blanche to pick one or the other option at will; the fact remains, however, that Jesus did and said certain things at certain times to certain audiences that we might find uncomfortable.  But he knew when to do that and when to do otherwise.  Men and women of discernment also know how to navigate this grey area.  On its own, I'm not sure we can condemn this sort of method.  The question then becomes whether it is appropriate in a given situation. 
 

DeniseDenise

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Mor Ephrem said:
DeniseDenise said:
Mor Ephrem said:
DeniseDenise said:
Cyrillic said:
DeniseDenise said:
I guess if you call hatemongering language 'provocation'.....
What about calling people 'snakes' and 'children of vipers'? What about talking about the 'synagogue of Satan'?

Toughen up.

Fairly sure its darn difficult to love ones neighbor as ones self while calling them such things......
Would it be fair to suggest, then, that you are fairly sure it is darn difficult for Jesus to love his neighbour?

No.. but we are not God, he is. 

I won't say it makes perfect sense, but its also not a carte blanche to call people such things...'I will just emulating Christ'

there are FAR more examples of him speaking more gently then there are him doing what he did in the temple to the vendors....
We are not God, but he became man and, "in the days of his flesh" (cf. Heb 5.7), said the things Cyrillic quoted as well as the whole "love your neighbour" bit.   

I agree that this does not constitute a carte blanche to pick one or the other option at will; the fact remains, however, that Jesus did and said certain things at certain times to certain audiences that we might find uncomfortable.  But he knew when to do that and when to do otherwise.  Men and women of discernment also know how to navigate this grey area.  On its own, I'm not sure we can condemn this sort of method.  The question then becomes whether it is appropriate in a given situation.


and I wouldn't disagree with that overall...but i would posit the notion that Jesus was not trying to convince the Moneychangers to follow him, give up their sin.

Which is precisely WHAT we need to be doing with the LGBT community, not merely calling them vipers and kicking them out to be even more angry at God.

 
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