Fr Josiah Trenham in Tbilisi: Homofascists not Welcome

Charles Martel

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Iconodule said:
The inimitable Fr Josiah is bravely standing up to the Homofascists and their bathroom intrusions at the World Council of Families in Tbilisi: http://frjohnpeck.com/homofascists-not-welcome/
A very infomrative and well delivered presentation on the facts of the LGBT agenda and assault on every culture in penetrates. This is truly a brave and holy priest of the East. Well done Fr. Josiah.

Of course, telling the truth on sodomy will land you nothing but 5 pages of vitriol, venom and ad hominem attacks from the so-called "adherents" of your own religion on one of your own forums. This thread is very telling of the depths the sodomy-pushers on here are willing to go in order to defend an act of degradation  and sin specifically condemned in Church teachings.

They will shamefully , publicly attack this good priest's name over condemning these sin of the flesh.

Be careful now Fr., you are a marked man.

The servant is no better than the Master.


 

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Charles Martel said:
Iconodule said:
The inimitable Fr Josiah is bravely standing up to the Homofascists and their bathroom intrusions at the World Council of Families in Tbilisi: http://frjohnpeck.com/homofascists-not-welcome/
A very infomrative and well delivered presentation on the facts of the LGBT agenda and assault on every culture in penetrates. This is truly a brave and holy priest of the East. Well done Fr. Josiah.

Of course, telling the truth on sodomy will land you nothing but 5 pages of vitriol, venom and ad hominem attacks from the so-called "adherents" of your own religion on one of your own forums. This thread is very telling of the depths the sodomy-pushers on here are willing to go in order to defend an act of degradation  and sin specifically condemned in Church teachings.

They will shamefully , publicly attack this good priest's name over condemning these sin of the flesh.

Be careful now Fr., you are a marked man.

The servant is no better than the Master.
Amen. Vincit omnia veritas.
 

ialmisry

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Cyrillic said:
Clemente said:
Have you even watched the video? The whole video? He used the term "homofascist" a total of one time to describe legislative efforts on the part of the gay lobby to restrict religious freedom in California and in particular, Christian schools in California.
Using the word 'homofascists' for the kind of people who would infringe upon religious freedom and the conscience of others in the name of 'gay rights' doesn't seem to be too inaccurate.

Makes you wonder who the real drama queens are, with all the pearl-clutching going on around here.
yes, quite a bit. Two days and already 5 pages.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Clemente said:
This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
Fr. Jacobse runs The American Orthodox Institute and I consider that anti-Christian, but that's another thread.
when you start it, can you also tell us how supporting the gay agenda is pro-Christian?
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Citation?
St. Basil's Sermon to the Rich. See http://www.svspress.com/on-social-justice-st-basil-the-great/
Didn't notice that he changed the title, did you?

Besides not noticing St. Basil's grasp (or lack thereof) of economics, the praisers of envy who quote him never seem to notice that St. Basil was, and remained, wealthy.
 

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FinnJames said:
People here seem to be assuming that because Fr Trenham was speaking in Tbilisi his audience was Georgian. But the World Congress of Families is a US-based international group. Here is a link to their website http://worldcongress.org/ and to the Wikipedia article on them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Congress_of_Families.

wgw said:
Also, everything he said must be taken in the context of his speech last year on human dignity; those who he calls "homo fascists" still posess the image of God and are of sacred worth, even though they intentionally distort that image through abuse of the reproductive faculty.
Since not everyone who attends a World Congress of Families gathering is Orthodox, there is no guarantee that everyone in Fr Trenham's audience would have agreed with the phrase in bold type above.

By the way, Fr Trenham has a Presbyterian background and Protestant seminary education, which may account for his at times fiery/'theatrical' homily and public speaking style.
I saw nothing firery or theatrical; his homiletical style comes across as as like Fr. John Behr, but more accessible, driven however by the same ideas and conveying the astonishing implications thereof.  Compare his speech last year with Fr. John Behr's lecture "The Heresy of Orthodoxy."
 

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ialmisry said:
NicholasMyra said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Citation?
St. Basil's Sermon to the Rich. See http://www.svspress.com/on-social-justice-st-basil-the-great/
Didn't notice that he changed the title, did you?

Besides not noticing St. Basil's grasp (or lack thereof) of economics, the praisers of envy who quote him never seem to notice that St. Basil was, and remained, wealthy.
You are quite right to point this out.  However, let me also suggest:

St. Basil was extremely pious and holy; economics did not even exist as a science, and very little philosophical work had been done on this subject; it was not until Adam Smith and The Wealth of Nations that we began to see a serious study of macroeconomic principles.  Only micro-economics were understood, and within that sphere, the charity urged for by St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom was appropriate.  St. Basil invented the hospital.  On the other hand, the private sector in the fourth century was small amd stagnant and closely interwoven with the public; it essentially amounted to merchant trading and the manufacture of simple objects on a relatovely small scale (there was a Roman brand of kitchenware known as FORTIS the artifacts of which have been found throughout the Empire, but I have no idea if they were still trading in the fourth century).

Lastly, St. Basil rejected the philosophical idea of atoms in favour of the idea of the Four Elements; he was not quite as scientifically prophetic as St. Athanasius, who in De Incarnatione correctly identified the main aspect of the Big Bang physicists struggle to explain, that being the non-uniform distribution of matter (which points obviously to a divine intelligence; I fear that scientific attemots to solve that problem extra-theologically might lead us into wasting more money on epistemologically unverifiable, unfalsifiable theories like some forms of String Theory or lead science into a confused misinterpretation of experimental data based on confirmation bias).

In any event, St. Basil was opposed to homosexuality; his younger brother St. Gregory of Nyassa is one of the few fourth century Patristic figures to have authored a disciplinary canon against it.  And Canon 73 of St, Basil further shields us from any attempt to alter the practice of the Orthodox Church concerning this issue.

 

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wgw said:
FinnJames said:
People here seem to be assuming that because Fr Trenham was speaking in Tbilisi his audience was Georgian. But the World Congress of Families is a US-based international group. Here is a link to their website http://worldcongress.org/ and to the Wikipedia article on them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Congress_of_Families.

wgw said:
Also, everything he said must be taken in the context of his speech last year on human dignity; those who he calls "homo fascists" still posess the image of God and are of sacred worth, even though they intentionally distort that image through abuse of the reproductive faculty.
Since not everyone who attends a World Congress of Families gathering is Orthodox, there is no guarantee that everyone in Fr Trenham's audience would have agreed with the phrase in bold type above.

By the way, Fr Trenham has a Presbyterian background and Protestant seminary education, which may account for his at times fiery/'theatrical' homily and public speaking style.
I saw nothing firery or theatrical; his homiletical style comes across as as like Fr. John Behr, but more accessible, driven however by the same ideas and conveying the astonishing implications thereof.  Compare his speech last year with Fr. John Behr's lecture "The Heresy of Orthodoxy."
Posters farther up the thread were complaining that Fr Trenham gave his homily on the Death of America dressed in black rather than in the appropriate vestments of the day. That's what I meant by 'theatrical', and I suspect from your other posts that you would consider it so too.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Mor Ephrem said:
NicholasMyra said:
Mor Ephrem said:
St Basil was not talking about crosses. 
He was talking about material goods, of which crosses are a sort. You only have to look on galleria byzantium to see some particularly stony examples.

Mor Ephrem said:
Crosses made of "stones and dust", made of materials "as they are in this age", are not "stones and dust" of one type as opposed to "stones and dust" of another.
What is the demonstration for this?
John of Damascus. 

And do you or do you not acknowledge the tension I spoke of in my previous posts?
I do, but not quite the way you do.
1. What is the demonstration for crosses etc. not being a sort of stone and dust via St. John?
Mor Ephrem said:
[quote author=John of Damascus]If I venerate and reverence the cross and the lance and the reed and the sponge, with which the deicide Jews insulted my Lord and killed him, as the cause of my salvation, shall I not venerate the images of the sufferings of Christ, fashioned with a good purpose by those who believe, for his glory and in his memory?  If I venerate the image of the cross, made of whatever wood, shall I not venerate the image of the crucified one, showing the saving cross?  That I do not venerate matter is plain.  For once the pattern of the cross is destroyed, and (say) it is made of wood, then I will consign the wood to the fire, and so with the images. 

On the Divine Images II.19
[/quote]

As long as the pattern of the cross exists, it is the cross.  Your argument was that Fr Josiah was fighting "to save stones and dust from being converted into other forms of stone and dust".  I would contend that he probably didn't think of it as "stones and dust", but as the cross, because it had the pattern of the cross. 

2. Ok, what do you think of Iconodule's take on the protest, then? More acceptable?
Do you have a particular quote in mind?  I want to be sure I'm responding to what you have in mind. 
 

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Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
 

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Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.
This is a pretty lame thing to say.  There are plenty of religious people of all backgrounds, including cradle Orthodox, who are vocal about social/cultural issues.  It also seems that from following Fr. Josiah I hear a lot more reference to Catholic "culture warriors" than Presbyterians/Evangelicals.

The lack of "culture warrioring" among cradle Orthodox in America may have more to do with their own experience as minority immigrant populations than any sort of theological/religious maturity.  If you head to Eastern Europe you'll see plenty of "culture warriors" among the Orthodox.
 

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Hinterlander said:
This is a pretty lame thing to say.  There are plenty of religious people of all backgrounds, including cradle Orthodox, who are vocal about social/cultural issues.  It also seems that from following Fr. Josiah I hear a lot more reference to Catholic "culture warriors" than Presbyterians/Evangelicals..
The way Fr. Josiah is engaging the issue is in keeping with evangelical activism.  The polemicism, the resentment and conspiratorial fantasies, etc., are all hallmarks of the evangelical worldview going back for centuries. 

 

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Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




 

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ialmisry said:
Cyrillic said:
Clemente said:
Have you even watched the video? The whole video? He used the term "homofascist" a total of one time to describe legislative efforts on the part of the gay lobby to restrict religious freedom in California and in particular, Christian schools in California.
Using the word 'homofascists' for the kind of people who would infringe upon religious freedom and the conscience of others in the name of 'gay rights' doesn't seem to be too inaccurate.

Makes you wonder who the real drama queens are, with all the pearl-clutching going on around here.
yes, quite a bit. Two days and already 5 pages.
If you haven't noticed the posts here are pretty barren. There is nothing going on and there are no current masturbation threads to compete.
 

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ialmisry said:
NicholasMyra said:
Clemente said:
This is the "anti-Christian think tank" he belongs to? Are Orthodox Fathers Jensen, Jacobse and Butler "anti Christian"?
Fr. Jacobse runs The American Orthodox Institute and I consider that anti-Christian, but that's another thread.
when you start it, can you also tell us how supporting the gay agenda is pro-Christian?
You know the AOI better than everyone here. Interesting that you side-stepped the  Fr. Jacobse issue. I have been reading the site since the previous presidential administration. I will not go further as it obviously enters into politics and in my frame of mind his name = politics in any discussion.
 

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The debate about Saint Basil and if a more "libertarian" view is unchristian or not I would like to try to say my personal THOUGHTS regarding this issue.

There are multiple people here (including myself) who have read that social justice book.  Same with "Wealth and Poverty" by Saint John Chrysostom


---

      Throughout these texts, what is emphasized again and again is charity of the individual. Constant calling for people to reject the sin of greed and to obtain the virtue of charity. Charity is personal, it is voluntary; not forced.

      It is not charitable in itself to pay taxes. That is something completely unrelated. God will not add a jewel to your crown in heaven for paying forced taxes to support someones welfare check. God will reward you for volunteering to give your money to the poor. That is charity. It is important to distinguish the two acts as being different for the "citizen". And so the question is presented: Why are Saints calling for the state to intervene on behalf of the poor then? Something needs to be clarified.

      The STATE, as it was in the time of Saint Basil and Saint John Chrysostom is different to today's government.

      The state in which Saint Basil and Saint John lived in, the "Roman Empire", was not "run" by elected officials. It was "ruled" by princely powers. A king is judged differently than a farmer, just as a bishop is judged differently than a monk. A monarch is expected to rule their kingdom in a Christian manner. He has different duties as a Christian than others:
      For a King or any ruler it is "Christian" to support the Church and pay its salaries, build its churches, and promote and defend the faith, including against heresy. It is the duty of a Christian monarch to provide stability and peace, to defend their people but even more,  The Ecumenical Council's canons were made LAW in the Roman Empire.  Now again back to charity. That is another duty: It is Christian for a monarch to give alms to the poor as well, EVEN THOUGH the money is from taxes, or from an inheritance from previous rulers coffers. The money could even be spoils of war. As a ruler, that is your method of charity. The ruler is not required to stop ruling and do manual work to make money and then give to the poor, the ruler uses the money of the ruled to be charitable. And he is rewarded for that in heaven.
      It is NOT the ruler's duty to give YOU crowns in heaven by raising taxes to help the poor. It is his duty to give HIMSELF crowns in heaven by raising taxes to help the poor. A ruler's charity is not your charity. Your taxes are not an indulgence. Your taxes might be going to killing people for all you know. It might be used to pay a prostitute or to assassinate a political rival. Thankfully you are not judged for this as a subject of a monarch, but rather the ruler is judged.


    Hopefully now one can distinguish the difference of duty of Christians in regards to the rulers and the ruled in the times of those Saints.

---

    Today, we have a different government. The duty of an elected official is not to be Christian. It is to listen to what the citizens want, and to represent and govern them accordingly. There is no prayer, duty, contract, or coronation of today's elected officials to uphold the Christian faith and its teachings. An elected official might have a mandate which opposes Christian virtue and duty of the ruler and they will be obligated to follow that mandate of the voter's whim regardless.
    Will God judge today's elected officials with crowns in heaven for following a voters mandate even if un-Christian? Or will He judge them still for following, or not following, Christian duty regardless of voter mandate? Perhaps they will be judged in another way, after all it is not a Christian institution, it is completely secularized.  Back on topic....

    In a democracy, you are now in a way a "ruler". Very complicating... Now it is arguable YOU have a duty to vote for people to represent you, that is, people who will fulfill Christian duty as a ruler (if you are in fact a Christian and you are voting). Now you actually have a say in governance, perhaps you might be judged for where your taxes go. If your taxes are going to some subsidizing of Abortion you are now being judged if you voted for a representative which supports this. That is because you had a say in this with your vote, as your own "ruler" in a way those under monarchs did not.

    Now arguably you might be judged if you vote for representatives which believe that the state should not supply any welfare to the people at all. Yet at the same time the other side can be attacked as well.

    Socialism on its surface can be Christian in its INTENT. Imagine a perfectly Christian Socialist. They believe government can best alleviate the poor, and their vote for a socialist representative they believe will be the most christian way to vote, rather than vote for a capitalist who rather relies on private charity to bring mercy. Ignore whether the socialist supports the Church with government money or not for this hypothetical.

    A problem is arising in this situation. The government might turn out to be LESS efficient at alleviating the poor's woes than private charity, compared to a more unregulated economy. This sounds silly on the surface, but look at Venezuela. Look at the Soviet Union. Look at Communist China. Sometimes a government might be so inefficient or make so many mistakes that they do more harm than good. Your well intentioned vote might in reality be making the situation worse. Sometimes a government can do more to help the poor by its absence than its presence. The problem again is that now you might be judged for this. It is not the monarchs sin alone here. It is now the elected officials, and the voters (you) sin.

    Since there is not an easy way to tell which method of taxation and distribution will most effectivly help the poor in every specific situation, I think it is safe to say... KYRIE ELEISON for all of us and our votes and to remember that PERSONAL CHARITY is what Saint Basil and Saint John were really trying to talk about.

    As a man of labor, use your excess wealth to help the poor as much as you can VOLUNTARILY and you will be judged/rewarded for this.

    As a merchant, do this as well, but further duties such as: do not price gouge. Do not raise prices on necessities in times of need. (you have a duty to be a Christian even as a merchant). This is VOLUNTARY. Today we call this being "Ethical" businessman. You will be judged/rewarded for this. Being a libertarian does not mean you cannot fulfill this calling of charity!

    As a ruler, use your taxes to VOLUNTARILY help the poor. You will be judged/rewarded for this.

    You will not be judged or rewarded for another persons duties or charity (unless perhaps you are a ruler, as you should be promoting this). You will not be judged for a thief stealing money from you and using it to finance sin. You will not be rewarded for a robin hood stealing your money to give to the poor either. And so it is with the government (in the time of these Saints).


    That is charity as described by Saint Basil and Saint John (in MY interpretation).

---




After all of that, again I am going to say I might be wrong 100 PERCENT on any of this. But this is how I interpreted their words and how I feel they would apply them. I am not qualified nor am I virtuous or holy myself so take everything I say with a ton of salt.

----


Now how does this relate to LGBT and homofascists ect

Father Josiah has a duty to defend the Christian faith and its teachings. Part of its teachings is that the act and desire of homosexuality is sinful. As a priest he must persuade as many as possible to combat sin. This means you are going to have to say uncomfortable things to sinners. It is not very comfortable to hear that you are being sinful holding on to your big fat bank account without being charitable. It is also not very comfortable to hear that if you are a homosexual, your desires are sinful (especially if you have "accepted" them as being normal and who you are). Homosexuality is harder to hear rebukes for, because it is perceived today that homosexuality is not a choice. So one might feel they are rebuking someone for something they cannot change.

Even if this is the case, homosexual desire is still a desire, and it is still a sin. Greed is still a desire as well, and it is also still a sin. Everyone is born with an innate sense of greed (or so we might believe today). Some people are born with an innate sense of homosexuality (or so we might believe today).

Father Josiah, I do not know him outside of this thread but as a priest it is his duty to combat all sin especially of laity because he is judged for the souls of his laity. If he neglects the souls of laity he will be judged for this. So right away I find it concerning when someone attacks a priest for attacking sin, even a difficult one like homosexuality. I see it as sinful in it self to tell a priest to silence his criticisms of sinful acts and those who promote sin. I also think its very wrong to call him heretical and unchristian for it, or even "evil".



End

 

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TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
 

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Gunnarr said:
The debate about Saint Basil and if a more "libertarian" view is unchristian or not I would like to try to say my personal THOUGHTS regarding this issue.

There are multiple people here (including myself) who have read that social justice book.  Same with "Wealth and Poverty" by Saint John Chrysostom


---

      Throughout these texts, what is emphasized again and again is charity of the individual. Constant calling for people to reject the sin of greed and to obtain the virtue of charity. Charity is personal, it is voluntary; not forced.

      It is not charitable in itself to pay taxes. That is something completely unrelated. God will not add a jewel to your crown in heaven for paying forced taxes to support someones welfare check. God will reward you for volunteering to give your money to the poor. That is charity. It is important to distinguish the two acts as being different for the "citizen". And so the question is presented: Why are Saints calling for the state to intervene on behalf of the poor then? Something needs to be clarified.

      The STATE, as it was in the time of Saint Basil and Saint John Chrysostom is different to today's government.

      The state in which Saint Basil and Saint John lived in, the "Roman Empire", was not "run" by elected officials. It was "ruled" by princely powers. A king is judged differently than a farmer, just as a bishop is judged differently than a monk. A monarch is expected to rule their kingdom in a Christian manner. He has different duties as a Christian than others:
      For a King or any ruler it is "Christian" to support the Church and pay its salaries, build its churches, and promote and defend the faith, including against heresy. It is the duty of a Christian monarch to provide stability and peace, to defend their people but even more,  The Ecumenical Council's canons were made LAW in the Roman Empire.  Now again back to charity. That is another duty: It is Christian for a monarch to give alms to the poor as well, EVEN THOUGH the money is from taxes, or from an inheritance from previous rulers coffers. The money could even be spoils of war. As a ruler, that is your method of charity. The ruler is not required to stop ruling and do manual work to make money and then give to the poor, the ruler uses the money of the ruled to be charitable. And he is rewarded for that in heaven.
      It is NOT the ruler's duty to give YOU crowns in heaven by raising taxes to help the poor. It is his duty to give HIMSELF crowns in heaven by raising taxes to help the poor. A ruler's charity is not your charity. Your taxes are not an indulgence. Your taxes might be going to killing people for all you know. It might be used to pay a prostitute or to assassinate a political rival. Thankfully you are not judged for this as a subject of a monarch, but rather the ruler is judged.


    Hopefully now one can distinguish the difference of duty of Christians in regards to the rulers and the ruled in the times of those Saints.

---

    Today, we have a different government. The duty of an elected official is not to be Christian. It is to listen to what the citizens want, and to represent and govern them accordingly. There is no prayer, duty, contract, or coronation of today's elected officials to uphold the Christian faith and its teachings. An elected official might have a mandate which opposes Christian virtue and duty of the ruler and they will be obligated to follow that mandate of the voter's whim regardless.
    Will God judge today's elected officials with crowns in heaven for following a voters mandate even if un-Christian? Or will He judge them still for following, or not following, Christian duty regardless of voter mandate? Perhaps they will be judged in another way, after all it is not a Christian institution, it is completely secularized.  Back on topic....

    In a democracy, you are now in a way a "ruler". Very complicating... Now it is arguable YOU have a duty to vote for people to represent you, that is, people who will fulfill Christian duty as a ruler (if you are in fact a Christian and you are voting). Now you actually have a say in governance, perhaps you might be judged for where your taxes go. If your taxes are going to some subsidizing of Abortion you are now being judged if you voted for a representative which supports this. That is because you had a say in this with your vote, as your own "ruler" in a way those under monarchs did not.

    Now arguably you might be judged if you vote for representatives which believe that the state should not supply any welfare to the people at all. Yet at the same time the other side can be attacked as well.

    Socialism on its surface can be Christian in its INTENT. Imagine a perfectly Christian Socialist. They believe government can best alleviate the poor, and their vote for a socialist representative they believe will be the most christian way to vote, rather than vote for a capitalist who rather relies on private charity to bring mercy. Ignore whether the socialist supports the Church with government money or not for this hypothetical.

    A problem is arising in this situation. The government might turn out to be LESS efficient at alleviating the poor's woes than private charity, compared to a more unregulated economy. This sounds silly on the surface, but look at Venezuela. Look at the Soviet Union. Look at Communist China. Sometimes a government might be so inefficient or make so many mistakes that they do more harm than good. Your well intentioned vote might in reality be making the situation worse. Sometimes a government can do more to help the poor by its absence than its presence. The problem again is that now you might be judged for this. It is not the monarchs sin alone here. It is now the elected officials, and the voters (you) sin.

    Since there is not an easy way to tell which method of taxation and distribution will most effectivly help the poor in every specific situation, I think it is safe to say... KYRIE ELEISON for all of us and our votes and to remember that PERSONAL CHARITY is what Saint Basil and Saint John were really trying to talk about.

    As a man of labor, use your excess wealth to help the poor as much as you can VOLUNTARILY and you will be judged/rewarded for this.

    As a merchant, do this as well, but further duties such as: do not price gouge. Do not raise prices on necessities in times of need. (you have a duty to be a Christian even as a merchant). This is VOLUNTARY. Today we call this being "Ethical" businessman. You will be judged/rewarded for this. Being a libertarian does not mean you cannot fulfill this calling of charity!

    As a ruler, use your taxes to VOLUNTARILY help the poor. You will be judged/rewarded for this.

    You will not be judged or rewarded for another persons duties or charity (unless perhaps you are a ruler, as you should be promoting this). You will not be judged for a thief stealing money from you and using it to finance sin. You will not be rewarded for a robin hood stealing your money to give to the poor either. And so it is with the government (in the time of these Saints).


    That is charity as described by Saint Basil and Saint John (in MY interpretation).

---




After all of that, again I am going to say I might be wrong 100 PERCENT on any of this. But this is how I interpreted their words and how I feel they would apply them. I am not qualified nor am I virtuous or holy myself so take everything I say with a ton of salt.

----


Now how does this relate to LGBT and homofascists ect

Father Josiah has a duty to defend the Christian faith and its teachings. Part of its teachings is that the act and desire of homosexuality is sinful. As a priest he must persuade as many as possible to combat sin. This means you are going to have to say uncomfortable things to sinners. It is not very comfortable to hear that you are being sinful holding on to your big fat bank account without being charitable. It is also not very comfortable to hear that if you are a homosexual, your desires are sinful (especially if you have "accepted" them as being normal and who you are). Homosexuality is harder to hear rebukes for, because it is perceived today that homosexuality is not a choice. So one might feel they are rebuking someone for something they cannot change.

Even if this is the case, homosexual desire is still a desire, and it is still a sin. Greed is still a desire as well, and it is also still a sin. Everyone is born with an innate sense of greed (or so we might believe today). Some people are born with an innate sense of homosexuality (or so we might believe today).

Father Josiah, I do not know him outside of this thread but as a priest it is his duty to combat all sin especially of laity because he is judged for the souls of his laity. If he neglects the souls of laity he will be judged for this. So right away I find it concerning when someone attacks a priest for attacking sin, even a difficult one like homosexuality. I see it as sinful in it self to tell a priest to silence his criticisms of sinful acts and those who promote sin. I also think its very wrong to call him heretical and unchristian for it, or even "evil".



End
Thank you Gunarr for this through and well written analysis.  It clarifies the position of St. Basil in regards to charity and welfare, and provides a very succinct vindication of Fr. Josiah Trenham, who is being unfairly mauled by chaps who havent even bothered to look at the video of his speech (or his prior speeches to this conference).
 

Iconodule

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wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
Maybe it's just about the pink liturgical hats and male bonding.  Did you ever think about that?!
 

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Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty.  I certainly would not throw rocks; if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
 

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wgw said:
Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty.  I certainly would not throw rocks; if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
lmgtfy







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6q2uQQUbzs

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Or is it as usually you roll?
 

augustin717

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wgw said:
Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
I doubt you could throw  a boa feather, let alone rocks, mister!
 

augustin717

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wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
That's a bit of a foolish idea as they tend to think bout gays in the most stereotypical ways in those parts of the world. You don't wanna risk a qui pro quo.
 

Mor Ephrem

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mike said:
wgw said:
Iconodule said:
wgw said:
TheTrisagion said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Clemente said:
Stay a while.  There'll be more.
Yes, let's instead concentrate on ecological sins. All that stuff about homosexuality being bad is so antiquated.
Considering that the last two years have been the hottest in recorded history, I think this is a serious option.

Fr. Josiah is formerly a conservative presbyterian and evangelical.  He's just keeping true to that and being a culture war activist.  The theatrics are part and parcel of evangelicalism.
More evangelical culture warriors...




Its a beautiful thing to see righteous indignation, without hate, but with justifiable anger, constructively employed by the clergy and their laity in order to preserve traditional family values in Georgia.  I wish I had been there standing alongside those priests.
Would you have been throwing rocks with them as well?
I dont see any of those priests throwing rocks.  Their hands, and the pockets of their zostikons and exorasons, furthermore appear empty.  I certainly would not throw rocks; if some over excited members of the crowd did, that was to their discredit; I would imagine the majority of the priests did not as they as much as anyone must be acutely aware that they are not without sin.
lmgtfy







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6q2uQQUbzs

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Or is it as usually you roll?
Perhaps you can highlight where in these photos/videos an actual priest is throwing rocks. 
 

Daedelus1138

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Saying that homosexual desire is a sin seems very harsh.  People aren't responsible for their desires or attractions.  To many gay people, saying that being gay is inherently sinful is judgmental because it's damning them from birth.  I've talked to gay people that knew they were gay from a very young age, so young they didn't even know what sex was.  They just imagined when they grew up, they would marry a man (and my one friend who was like this was raised a Pentecostal, so it is not an idea that reconciled easy with his religion).  They were naïve children, but that is what it is like to be gay.  It is not a choice.  The Orthodox Church can teach what it wants about homosexual acts, but its very harsh to say that people created in the image of God are damned from birth.  I thought Orthodox do not believe in Calvinism?
 

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Being somewhat familiar with the typical stand of the subject of the OP, I have some observations:

1) Yes, there is undoubtedly a political agenda with 'homosexuality' and its marketing.  However, I think the politics of it are different for different people, and it isn't a monolithic movement.

2) In California, the relationship between liberal minority groups and liberal whites has been largely about a trade-off.  The minority communities here are notoriously homophobic, but turn a blind eye in exchange the 'recognition' of their agenda items.  Homosexuality is mostly the arena of the elites.

3) I don't believe that anyone in the modern Orthodox world, including Fr. Josiah, has been able to explain the Orthodox concepts surrounding the modern idea of 'homosexuality.'  My opinion is that, so long as he and others choose to accept the premise and attempt to fight the usual 'culture war', he will continue to be ignored and our Church will continue to lose public debates.

4) I don't know that many priests who would throw rocks.  It gets their hands dirty.  When I was in seminary, I once was subjected to a lecture by a priest who insisted that we all make sure to routinely clean our nails, because people won't want to kiss our hands if they look dirty.  In my case, I've taken to wearing gloves...  ;)
 

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Daedelus1138 said:
The Orthodox Church can teach what it wants about homosexual acts, but its very harsh to say that people created in the image of God are damned from birth.  I thought Orthodox do not believe in Calvinism?
We don't and we don't. 
 

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Daedelus1138 said:
Saying that homosexual desire is a sin seems very harsh.
I'm not sure where you see the teaching that they are damned from birth.

The general teaching is that it is the act, not the desire, which is sinful. I think Orthodox pastors are generally awakening to the understanding that it is not something to be switched on or off. We don't pick all our temptations, but we can choose how to respond to them. In this scenario, the Church is called to accept these people lovingly and aid them in their spiritual struggle, counseling them to celibacy. I think such an attitude is workable without the virulent homophobia that singles this sin out as the downfall of civilization. I myself have taken and struggled with this conception.

However, as I witness the pain and exclusion which this teaching- however gently expressed- has brought to gay people trying to navigate their way into and in the Church, and when I see the good fruits that can be borne of these relationships, I am  beginning to think this position too is untenable. I cannot, in good conscience, stand before friends and acquaintances in such loving relationships and inflict my understanding of a few historically hazy precepts on them, convincing myself that I am somehow speaking the truth in love. 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Perhaps you can highlight where in these photos/videos an actual priest is throwing rocks.
According to the Irish Times (18.May.2013) article "Crowd led by priests attacks gay rights marchers in Georgia", from which one of the photos was taken, it was "the masses of mostly young men [who] threw rocks and eggs at the demonstrators".
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/crowd-led-by-priests-attacks-gay-rights-marchers-in-georgia-1.1398862

This isn't to suggest that throwing rocks is justified, only that it wasn't priests who were doing it.

 

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The issue is not whether the Fathers thought social justice was a good thing, they obviously thought it was, but whether it was something that the government should enforce. To me, it seems like the Fathers for the most part thought that the state should be based on Christian morals, but some added the point that this would be done unless it would bring about certain (worse) evils, e.g., St. Augustine saying in <i>De Ordine</i> that prostitution should remain legal so the world wouldn't burn with lust. In order to decide whether regulating the market should be allowed therefore comes down to what will be lost.

Note, however, that (like I quoted above) St. Augustine condemns the position that the government should allow whatever as long as it didn't hurt anybody or anybody's property. Furthermore, when the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church have spoken about economic matters recently, they have both condemned unrestricted capitalism. Finally, it just seems hypocritical for one to think the government should force gay people to be moral, but not businessmen to be.

I don't want to say anything about the benefits or drawbacks about capitalism, since I'm not an expert, and since this is not the politics section, I just wanted to give my opinion about how compatible it is with what some religious authorities have said.

P.S. I totally agree with the Orthodox position, which is not that homosexual passions are sinful, but that certain sexual acts are (anal sex with one's wife is considered just as bad - usually worse - than the same with another man). But the way the Orthodox Church expresses it today (and I think the Catholic Church too) is hardly going to convince anyone, since it is not usually done with much compassion, and often refuses to mention that celibacy is actually considered a worthier state than marriage that everybody is called to consider (Matt 19:12). The emphasis on the blessedness of celibacy is so weak in churches that it is no wonder why gay people think that straight Christians, most of them married, are being hypocritical when they say that gay people should just be celibate. The classical Christian position on sexuality is neither left-wing nor right-wing. I think we could convince more people, or at least make ourselves look more reasonable in their eyes, if we lived up to it more fully.
 

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A response from a ROCOR Deacon:

So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise gay or transgender people and the gay or transgender rights movement, if your primary concept of Christian morality revolves around sexual ethics, if for you the Church’s role in the public sphere is primarily to fight the so-called ‘culture war’, then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2016/08/the-gospel-fear-and-politics/#disqus_thread
 

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Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'

ROCOR was supposed to be hardcore Orthodoxy, wasn't it?
 

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Cyrillic said:
Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'
Not what he said, but nice try.

ROCOR was supposed to be hardcore Orthodoxy, wasn't it?
I'm guessing Fr Dcn Aaron is putting himself on the line for his words here. We'll see what happens.
 

Iconodule

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Orest said:
A response from a ROCOR Deacon:

So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise gay or transgender people and the gay or transgender rights movement, if your primary concept of Christian morality revolves around sexual ethics, if for you the Church’s role in the public sphere is primarily to fight the so-called ‘culture war’, then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/steelmagnificat/2016/08/the-gospel-fear-and-politics/#disqus_thread
Axios!
 

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Iconodule said:
Cyrillic said:
Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'
Not what he said, but nice try.
What else could he mean with 'attacking the gay or transgender rights movement'?
 

Iconodule

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Cyrillic said:
Iconodule said:
Cyrillic said:
Orest said:
So, make no mistake fellow Christians, if you have made it your mission to attack and demonise [...]  the gay or transgender rights movement [...] then you are doing far more damage than good for Christ. Try rereading the Gospels, and then be not only hearers, but doers of their words.
ROCOR Deacon: 'If you don't applaud two blokes getting hitched, or if have your doubts about the wisdom of letting kids mutilate their genitals, you are harming Christ and acting against the Gospels.'
Not what he said, but nice try.
What else could he mean with 'attacking the gay or transgender rights movement'?
How about an incendiary speech in a country known for rock-throwing homophobic mobs? Meanwhile giving other sins a pass or even a justification.

 

Iconodule

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BTW Fr. Dcn. Aaron's blog, Logismoi, is a serious contender for best Orthodox blog anywhere:

http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/
 

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Either way, he's probably be a fine deacon. But he phrased his article in such a way that it can be easily misinterpreted.
 
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