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Fr. Josiah Trenham's funeral for America

ialmisry

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minasoliman said:
It is one of the most laughable "refutations".  Is there any priest or bishop in our Church that ever gave a sermon on Frank Sinatra and his delusions to fly to the moon and give his sole worship to the one he adores?
Perhaps.
Fr. Josiah has some points, but I'm afraid his Scotch Presbyterianism (the type that doesn't believe in premarital sex because it might lead to dancing) is showing.
 

ialmisry

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minasoliman said:
Tikhon29605 said:
Arachne said:
Tikhon29605 said:
I guess I must be a cave dweller, but who is this Bruno Mars person?  I've never heard of him.
Teenybopper pop star. Tweens and teens like his stuff; you're not missing out on anything. Having a go at him for immoral lyrical content is like trying to crack nuts with a sledgehammer.
Thanks for the info.  Perhaps I am just old-fashioned, but I just don't listen to music that offends me.  It would never occur to me to protest such music or speak out against it publicly.  Life is too precious and too short to ruin it by fighting at every dragon that comes along. No wonder Father Josiah seems so tired and angry.  It must really be exhausting to thing you have to be the world's moral police.
He seems to run out of spiritual content for sermons and just finds that pop culture is fair game for commentary in the liturgy :p
Would you say that, say, to St. John Chrysostom...and any number of Fathers who devoted sermons on the pop culture of their day? (I remember a Russian story where a bishop told a priest to get his sermons from the Fathers. The priest just read sermons from the Fathers, with ridiculous results: no one in the village went to the chariot races).
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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ialmisry said:
minasoliman said:
It is one of the most laughable "refutations".  Is there any priest or bishop in our Church that ever gave a sermon on Frank Sinatra and his delusions to fly to the moon and give his sole worship to the one he adores?
Perhaps.
Fr. Josiah has some points, but I'm afraid his Scotch Presbyterianism (the type that doesn't believe in premarital sex because it might lead to dancing) is showing.
Not only does premarital sex lead to dancing, but it also leads to sins like mixed bathing. And the sin of mixed bathing inevitably leads to the sin of ecumenism.


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ialmisry said:
Tikhon29605 said:
I guess I must be a cave dweller, but who is this Bruno Mars person?  I've never heard of him.
To give some context, from the (in)famous sermon:
Our Lord descended from heaven, he humbled himself by becoming a man, and he suffered death on a cross in order to free us from our sins and to grant us the Holy Spirit, so that by possessing the Holy Spirit and being possessed by the Holy Spirit we might become spiritual. Bruno “the Loser” Mars thinks that was all unnecessary: all you have to do to become spiritual is swim in your girlfriend’s love. Our Lord fought the devils, he conquered death, he rose from the dead, and on the fortieth day he ascended to heaven, blazing a way for us into paradise, but Bruno “the Loser” Mars thinks all you have to do to go to paradise is to have sex with your lover. Our Lord sanctified the waters, he instituted the holy priesthood, so that souls could be resurrected and born again in holy baptism, but Bruno “the Loser” Mars thinks all you have to do is to spend the night with your girlfriend and you will be born again.
he sure not a fan of buno mars calling thw guy loser i think 3 times. I feel mixed on fr.josiah however no one can doubt he passionate. are his homilies this umm controversial?
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
ialmisry said:
minasoliman said:
It is one of the most laughable "refutations".  Is there any priest or bishop in our Church that ever gave a sermon on Frank Sinatra and his delusions to fly to the moon and give his sole worship to the one he adores?
Perhaps.
Fr. Josiah has some points, but I'm afraid his Scotch Presbyterianism (the type that doesn't believe in premarital sex because it might lead to dancing) is showing.
Not only does premarital sex lead to dancing, but it also leads to sins like mixed bathing. And the sin of mixed bathing inevitably leads to the sin of ecumenism.


Selam
Mixed bathing* is grounds for divorce.

*Actual bathing, in a bath, not swimming in the same stretch of ocean.
 

Mor Ephrem

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orthoreader said:
Hi Mor. I'm sorry you feel offended, truly I do.

Let me ask you a question, and forgive me if I am ignorant as to your position in the church - do you preach?
Yes, by invitation.  Do you? 

The message given by the one giving the sermon every Sunday doesn't necessarily have to be from the Gospel or Epistle of that particular day. To that end, one actually doesn't have to mention the name "Christ" to get Christ's message. Especially when one is talking about the Mysteries of the Church. Now, I'll grant you, more often than not, the one sermonizing should mention Christ and preach on the Gospel/Epistle. 
We are not traditionalist Roman Catholics, for whom the "message" given after the reading of the Gospel is not technically a part of the Liturgy, but is a sort of intermission between the Liturgy of the Catechumens and the Liturgy of the Eucharist during which the priest can talk about anything he wants and will take off a vestment or two just to underscore that what is being done in the pulpit has no connection with what is done at the altar.

The liturgical homily absolutely is supposed to be related to the reading(s) of the day, interpreting, connecting, and applying them to the hearers.  Sermons can be delivered on other topics and in other settings.  But sermon =/= homily.  I already suggested one way Fr Josiah could've dealt with this situation in my previous post.  It's not the only one, but it is one that allows him to present the message in the OP more or less verbatim without abusing the Church's worship.

Another option would've been to connect the reading of the day to the issue he would like to address.  Presuming that this sermon was given the Sunday after the SC verdict, the Epistle was Romans 6.18-23.  Don't tell me he couldn't do anything with that. 

Still another option would've been to teach the Orthodox Christian vision for marriage.  IIRC, his doctoral dissertation was on "Marriage according to Chrysostom", it shouldn't be so difficult to do "Marriage according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, and Paul" or even "Marriage according to the first two pages of the Bible".   

Can you preach the message of Christ without naming Christ?  Sure, I suppose.  But even when St Paul did so, he brought it back to (I paraphrase) "the man God has appointed by raising him from the dead".  Most preachers are not St Paul, however, and so it's generally a good idea to explicitly bring it back to Jesus.  Where is Jesus in his homily?  Where is the message of Christ?  Where are we talking about "Mysteries of the Church"? 

When affirming that "dignity is something that God gives by creation to man in his image", Fr Josiah refers to Justice Thomas' dissent and "our founding documents".  Is there nothing in Scripture about this from which he could teach?  In another place, he refers to changes undertaken at "our own California Baptist university".  Is California Baptist University a ministry of the Antiochian Archdiocese?  Whoever the "our" is he's speaking to and for, it clearly isn't the Orthodox Church.  When he talks about marriage, where is he talking about "the mystery of marriage"? 

Aside from some platitudes in the final few paragraphs, platitudes that presume his hearers already know the authentic teaching and practice of the Church and just need a "post-it note" reminder, there's nothing that teaches the Orthodox faith regarding marriage and sexuality, the intersection between our living the faith and living in the world, etc.  It's all presumed.  And that may be acceptable within the four walls of your parish when no one else is listening but your parishioners.  But when you put it on the internet (on a popular Orthodox media resource) so that anyone on earth can hear it, and you do so as a priest (PhD) who is a popular speaker and author, who is contacted by the media for his opinions because he is considered to be something of an authority, someone who also works with (more or less) the highest ecclesiastical structure of his Church in the US (and works with them closely enough that he can allude to the presence of heretics in their midst), it's a rather different matter.   

Now, I'm sorry you find this problematic, or Fr. Josiah's homily to be too "protestanty," but I have also heard hundreds of hand written-so called-Orthodox- homilies over my years, sort of just read (droned even), taken straight from the Gospel, and no one really got the message. The good news was that, I guess, no one also got offended either because the Priest didn't choose to connect it to our lives outside the four walls of the temple either. Sometimes, when Priests do that, it sort of stings because it makes us get out of our comfort zone. Right? I  hate it when priests do that. Especially when they get "too protestant" on our asses.
So the bad homilies you've heard in the past somehow make this acceptable.  Well, by that logic, the divorce rate among Christians in this country justifies same sex marriage.  Glad that's settled.  ::)

Like I told Tikhon, if Fr. Josiah (or any other priest) were doing this week in and week out, then I would too would find it problematic that he chose to overlook the readings for that particular Sunday to preach on politics. I would.
"First, brothers and sisters, you better get ready to lose a lot of parishioners. Maybe not in this church because you’ve been hearing your priest for two decades almost teach you about this."

I am firm believer that the good news is the good news and that's what we need to hear. But I also believe periods in history like that particular weekend need to be acknowledged by our clergy. I would have been more traumatized had my priest or any other just overlooked it as nothing. That would have been an abomination, not Fr. Josiah's sermon. 
I don't disagree that this matter should be addressed.  I disagree with the way it was done. 

But issues like sanctity of life, marriage, etc are intrinsically connected to the Mysteries of the Church - coopted by politics. But they belong to God in reality. They are de facto the Gospel.
As I said earlier, Fr Josiah relies on "our founding documents" and Justice Thomas' dissent (among other non-ecclesiastical sources) in order to establish these things.  So is "politics" co-opting what belongs to God?  Has Fr Josiah not already conceded them to "politics" by allowing "politics" to dominate the conversation?   

So when a priests decides to defend them, even in a sermon, he's not doing the job as he thinks he needs to, he's doing the job as his ordination demands - he's protecting the Holy Mysteries. Not understanding this, is the abomination, not Fr. Josiah's sermon.
I stand by my opinions 1000% because I have sufficiently explained them.  I'm sorry, I just don't accept that, in this case, the ends justified the means.  I'm sorry that you do. 
 

vamrat

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I don't think it is possible to have enough sermons against bruno mars and other pop singers.  They are a blight on the world and should be dealt with in a most ruthless fashion.  They should be made to have high blood pressure and tickled until they have an aneurism.  They should be put in a bouncy castle and left in the Bering Strait during a time of mid-level storms.  They should be dressed as clowns (not much a change from their everyday attire), placed atop a pile of faggots, and set alight by burning cabbage farts.  The mind of man has not devised a punishment sufficiently proportionate to these most heinous of violators.
 

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vamrat said:
I don't think it is possible to have enough sermons against bruno mars and other pop singers.  They are a blight on the world and should be dealt with in a most ruthless fashion.  They should be made to have high blood pressure and tickled until they have an aneurism.  They should be put in a bouncy castle and left in the Bering Strait during a time of mid-level storms.  They should be dressed as clowns (not much a change from their everyday attire), placed atop a pile of faggots, and set alight by burning cabbage farts.  The mind of man has not devised a punishment sufficiently proportionate to these most heinous of violators.
 

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vamrat said:
I don't think it is possible to have enough sermons against bruno mars and other pop singers.  They are a blight on the world and should be dealt with in a most ruthless fashion.  They should be made to have high blood pressure and tickled until they have an aneurism.  They should be put in a bouncy castle and left in the Bering Strait during a time of mid-level storms.  They should be dressed as clowns (not much a change from their everyday attire), placed atop a pile of faggots, and set alight by burning cabbage farts.  The mind of man has not devised a punishment sufficiently proportionate to these most heinous of violators.
Excerpted from A Modest Proposal by Vamrat.
 

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I probably shouldn't say this, but here goes:

Father Josiah's sermons remind me of the sermons I heard as a boy growing up in an Evangelical Church in the South.  They were never sermons based on lectionary readings nor where they sermons that went systematically through a book of the Bible.  Rather, they were almost always either sermons based on the Hallmark Calendar (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Fourth of July etc.) or they were reactionary screeds against whatever the political boogeyman of the day was (liquor by the drink, the Equal Rights Amendment, the TV show "Three's Company", Why We Should Have Prayer in Schools, Why Evolution is Evil and should be outlawed in the public schools etc.)  It was that type of drivel ad nauseum for most of my youth.  This is one of the reasons that even today I am such a stickler for preaching on the appointed liturgical readings for the day.  Doing that protects the laity from being subjected to that nonsense.
 

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Arachne said:
Opus118 said:
Adultery and extramarital sex should be illegal with a three strikes your a felon provision and felons are not allowed to marry.
Er... adultery means one is already married. ::)
I know, I ran into a problem when thinking about Swingers (there are probably more of them than gays). I was hoping putting in both words would solve the problem. You can rewrite it if you have a better idea.
 

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Opus118 said:
Arachne said:
Opus118 said:
Adultery and extramarital sex should be illegal with a three strikes your a felon provision and felons are not allowed to marry.
Er... adultery means one is already married. ::)
I know, I ran into a problem when thinking about Swingers (there are probably more of them than gays). I was hoping putting in both words would solve the problem. You can rewrite it if you have a better idea.
I'd rather scrap it, if it's all the same to you. Law & Order needn't waste time sniffing knickers. There's much bigger fish to fry.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Tikhon29605 said:
I guess I must be a cave dweller, but who is this Bruno Mars person?  I've never heard of him.
Of all the heresies which have departed from the truth articulated by the Catholic Church and enshrined in the Symbolum of Faith common to all Christians, none is so vile as that of the loser, heretic and hater of God Bruno Mars, which declares that the speediest and surest path to theosis lies between the thighs of one's true love.  His madness and irreligiousness have long been known among all men, most especially those whose radio dials are tuned to Hot 97 FM.  Considering the heresies of Madonna, Justin Timberlake, and Kanye West to be as older sisters to his odious doctrine, what would be more fitting than for Bruno Mars to dance forth against the Lord to the strains of dissolute and loose metres that serve as a perfect accompaniment to his wretched words of blasphemy and to beseech of the faithful females of Christ to "hit their hallelujah"?  If anyone should declare that today they don't feel like doing anything, the Catholic and Apostolic Church holds them to be anathema.  We condemn all of the works of Bruno Mars, including Doo-Wops and Hooligans and the aptly-named Unorthodox Jukebox (with a title like that he was asking for it) otherwise known as the Bazaar of Peter Gene Hernandez.

 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Opus118 said:
This is the mountain we should be dealing with. Adultery and extramarital sex should be illegal with a three strikes your a felon provision and felons are not allowed to marry. Divorce should only be granted within limited circumstances (adultery, violence, abuse, insanity, [add your favorite here]). Pornography should be limited to the written word (perhaps only in Latin), where it belongs. Extramarital sex and adultery should be taken out of movies/TV, they distract from the plot and it is illegal.
Oooookay.  So, your take away from all of this is that people should be locked up for having sex outside of marriage, we need more censorship in movies, the courts should decide whether or not a couple remains together, and beating off is okay as long as it's to Ovid?  I just want to make sure I'm understanding your vision for a moral society.
I did not mean to imply nor suggested locking up. Sex is a narcotic drug that is being used to manipulate us and make us less aware as to what is going on. Going further gets into economics and politics (albeit, independent of party). Adulterous felons do not have to go to prison, they just can't marry. The treatment should be "clinical".
 

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TheTrisagion said:
vamrat said:
I don't think it is possible to have enough sermons against bruno mars and other pop singers.  They are a blight on the world and should be dealt with in a most ruthless fashion.  They should be made to have high blood pressure and tickled until they have an aneurism.  They should be put in a bouncy castle and left in the Bering Strait during a time of mid-level storms.  They should be dressed as clowns (not much a change from their everyday attire), placed atop a pile of faggots, and set alight by burning cabbage farts.  The mind of man has not devised a punishment sufficiently proportionate to these most heinous of violators.
 

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Opus118 said:
Adulterous felons do not have to go to prison, they just can't marry.
How exactly does that stop them from having even more illicit sex? Do they have to wear a scarlet letter or summat?
 
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is Bruno mars worse than Madonna? I remember as a kid that had like a video or commercial or something like that of her burning a cross. I think nothing can top that. On a lighter note I wonder who the spouse and loved ones in the obituary for America? How big is her casket?
 

vamrat

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seekeroftruth777 said:
is Bruno mars worse than Madonna? I remember as a kid that had like a video or commercial or something like that of her burning a cross. I think nothing can top that. On a lighter note I wonder who the spouse and loved ones in the obituary for America? How big is her casket?
America ain't dead.  If she were, the whole world would stink of her corpse.
 

Second Chance

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Arachne said:
Opus118 said:
Adulterous felons do not have to go to prison, they just can't marry.
How exactly does that stop them from having even more illicit sex? Do they have to wear a scarlet letter or summat?
Chemical or surgical castration works.
 

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Opus118 said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
Opus118 said:
This is the mountain we should be dealing with. Adultery and extramarital sex should be illegal with a three strikes your a felon provision and felons are not allowed to marry. Divorce should only be granted within limited circumstances (adultery, violence, abuse, insanity, [add your favorite here]). Pornography should be limited to the written word (perhaps only in Latin), where it belongs. Extramarital sex and adultery should be taken out of movies/TV, they distract from the plot and it is illegal.
Oooookay.  So, your take away from all of this is that people should be locked up for having sex outside of marriage, we need more censorship in movies, the courts should decide whether or not a couple remains together, and beating off is okay as long as it's to Ovid?  I just want to make sure I'm understanding your vision for a moral society.
I did not mean to imply nor suggested locking up. Sex is a narcotic drug that is being used to manipulate us and make us less aware as to what is going on. Going further gets into economics and politics (albeit, independent of party). Adulterous felons do not have to go to prison, they just can't marry. The treatment should be "clinical".
Okay, that's creepy, so moving on to something creepier (I know I'm gonna be sorry I asked) why is porn in Latin okay in your book?  You enjoyed those descriptions of Hector and Andromache in Ars Amatoria did you?
 

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Opus118 said:
I skimmed the transcript and this thread (I didn't understand much of the latter).

The sermon deals primarily a mole hill that rest on top of a mountain. Perhaps gay marriage is a step in the right direction. They may prove to be a better example.

I liked the ending of the transcript:

You think this came out of nowhere? You know what proceeded this ruling? Skyrocketing divorce. The rejection of children in marriage. Adultery out the wazoo. We can’t look at this and say to ourselves, “Oh, those gays.” No no no no no. No no no. We should look at that and say, “God, forgive us.” This is our problem. This is our mess. We bought the whole hook line and sinker of the sexual revolution and now we’re wondering that this is actually happening? We can live for pleasure alone and reject responsibility in marriage? Father kids and not be there as dads? Leave our wives and just get new ones all the time? We can do that and this isn’t going to happen?
This is the mountain we should be dealing with. Adultery and extramarital sex should be illegal with a three strikes your a felon provision and felons are not allowed to marry. Divorce should only be granted within limited circumstances (adultery, violence, abuse, insanity, [add your favorite here]). Pornography should be limited to the written word (perhaps only in Latin), where it belongs. Extramarital sex and adultery should be taken out of movies/TV, they distract from the plot and it is illegal.

You can fix this up, I am in a rush.
I will fix this up by telling you that discussing how laws should be created or amended in order to penalise, among other things, adultery and extramarital sex and to impose limitations on divorce is political discussion (as would be a discussion on the legal merits of same sex marriage, the recent SC verdict, etc.). 

Take it somewhere else.
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Tikhon29605 said:
I guess I must be a cave dweller, but who is this Bruno Mars person?  I've never heard of him.
Of all the heresies which have departed from the truth articulated by the Catholic Church and enshrined in the Symbolum of Faith common to all Christians, none is so vile as that of the loser, heretic and hater of God Bruno Mars, which declares that the speediest and surest path to theosis lies between the thighs of one's true love.  His madness and irreligiousness have long been known among all men, most especially those whose radio dials are tuned to Hot 97 FM.  Considering the heresies of Madonna, Justin Timberlake, and Kanye West to be as older sisters to his odious doctrine, what would be more fitting than for Bruno Mars to dance forth against the Lord to the strains of dissolute and loose metres that serve as a perfect accompaniment to his wretched words of blasphemy and to beseech of the faithful females of Christ to "hit their hallelujah"?  If anyone should declare that today they don't feel like doing anything, the Catholic and Apostolic Church holds them to be anathema.  We condemn all of the works of Bruno Mars, including Doo-Wops and Hooligans and the aptly-named Unorthodox Jukebox (with a title like that he was asking for it) otherwise known as the Bazaar of Peter Gene Hernandez.

Anathema to Bruno Mars!

Anathema to Bruno Mars!

Anathema to Bruno Mars!
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
All,

While I realise that a topic like this cannot help but involve reference to politics, I think we can discuss this topic without violating the ban on political discussion in the public fora.  I suspect the OP had that in mind when posting the thread here as opposed to Politics. 

I ask you, therefore, to be careful not to stray into political discussion.  If that happens, I will have to take action, including but not limited to warnings.

Mor Ephrem, moderator 
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
I probably shouldn't say this, but here goes:

Father Josiah's sermons remind me of the sermons I heard as a boy growing up in an Evangelical Church in the South.  They were never sermons based on lectionary readings nor where they sermons that went systematically through a book of the Bible.  Rather, they were almost always either sermons based on the Hallmark Calendar (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Fourth of July etc.) or they were reactionary screeds against whatever the political boogeyman of the day was (liquor by the drink, the Equal Rights Amendment, the TV show "Three's Company", Why We Should Have Prayer in Schools, Why Evolution is Evil and should be outlawed in the public schools etc.)  It was that type of drivel ad nauseum for most of my youth.  This is one of the reasons that even today I am such a stickler for preaching on the appointed liturgical readings for the day.  Doing that protects the laity from being subjected to that nonsense.
Thank you for putting such a fine point on it.  I'm not familiar enough with Fr. Josiah's corpus to ascertain whether or not you are right or wrong, but American "Great Awakening" revivalist culture couldn't be less Orthodox.

Cyrillic said:
You had to work to get to the honey.
Please, don't make us picture you working to get the honey.
 

Mor Ephrem

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I'm unlocking the thread after splitting off some off-topic discussion which people decided to engage in despite my earlier warning.  Further violations will not only be split but also penalised without further discussion.
 

minasoliman

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ialmisry said:
minasoliman said:
Tikhon29605 said:
Arachne said:
Tikhon29605 said:
I guess I must be a cave dweller, but who is this Bruno Mars person?  I've never heard of him.
Teenybopper pop star. Tweens and teens like his stuff; you're not missing out on anything. Having a go at him for immoral lyrical content is like trying to crack nuts with a sledgehammer.
Thanks for the info.  Perhaps I am just old-fashioned, but I just don't listen to music that offends me.  It would never occur to me to protest such music or speak out against it publicly.  Life is too precious and too short to ruin it by fighting at every dragon that comes along. No wonder Father Josiah seems so tired and angry.  It must really be exhausting to thing you have to be the world's moral police.
He seems to run out of spiritual content for sermons and just finds that pop culture is fair game for commentary in the liturgy :p
Would you say that, say, to St. John Chrysostom...and any number of Fathers who devoted sermons on the pop culture of their day? (I remember a Russian story where a bishop told a priest to get his sermons from the Fathers. The priest just read sermons from the Fathers, with ridiculous results: no one in the village went to the chariot races).
Did St. John Chrysostom ever name a specific chariot racer and spend a whole sermon refuting his every statement or moves, or was he speaking about chariot racing in general and discussed Christian spirituality and the gospel of Christ?
 

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Tikhon29605 said:
I probably shouldn't say this, but here goes:

Father Josiah's sermons remind me of the sermons I heard as a boy growing up in an Evangelical Church in the South.  They were never sermons based on lectionary readings nor where they sermons that went systematically through a book of the Bible.  Rather, they were almost always either sermons based on the Hallmark Calendar (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Fourth of July etc.) or they were reactionary screeds against whatever the political boogeyman of the day was (liquor by the drink, the Equal Rights Amendment, the TV show "Three's Company", Why We Should Have Prayer in Schools, Why Evolution is Evil and should be outlawed in the public schools etc.)  It was that type of drivel ad nauseum for most of my youth.  This is one of the reasons that even today I am such a stickler for preaching on the appointed liturgical readings for the day.  Doing that protects the laity from being subjected to that nonsense.
You know there is the argument against Fr. Josiah's sermon's and then there are your comments.

If you have something personal against the man, come out and say it. But don't just make up stuff.

The notion that he doesnt' preach on the Gospel teachings are just completely outrageous.
 

orthoreader

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Arachne said:
Opus118 said:
Adulterous felons do not have to go to prison, they just can't marry.
How exactly does that stop them from having even more illicit sex? Do they have to wear a scarlet letter or summat?
Chemical or surgical castration works.
Chemical is the preferred method in the Balkans ;)
 

LenInSebastopol

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Minnesotan said:
"every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes." - Thomas Jefferson

The American elites have pretty much always been hostile to every form of Christianity that isn't radically-individualistic Protestantism. Obergefell (which Thomas Jefferson would almost certainly have supported were he alive today) isn't so much the death of America as a sign that "American ideals" (which are not the same as Christian ones) are as alive and well as ever.

To quote Chicago, "you can't really say it's over, when it never had begun".
You were fed, in your eduMEcation, poison regarding the American Principles upon which our foundation rests or so your post above clearly indicates.  I suggest you be redeemed.
 

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scamandrius said:
vamrat said:
I don't think it is possible to have enough sermons against bruno mars and other pop singers.  They are a blight on the world and should be dealt with in a most ruthless fashion.  They should be made to have high blood pressure and tickled until they have an aneurism.  They should be put in a bouncy castle and left in the Bering Strait during a time of mid-level storms.  They should be dressed as clowns (not much a change from their everyday attire), placed atop a pile of faggots, and set alight by burning cabbage farts.  The mind of man has not devised a punishment sufficiently proportionate to these most heinous of violators.
Excerpted from A Modest Proposal by Vamrat.
I too sense he does not like the fellow, and may be as funny as Mr. Swift.
 

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Well, I think one can make the argument that tone and tenor are just as important as structure and content.

The one thing that is very hard to separate out of a sermon is the manner in which it is given.  We know what a gift emoticons are to this forum, because they often help deliver the subtleties that mere mechanical language cannot always impart.

You can be right, but in precisely the wrong way.  You could say things that are technically accurate, but in a way that delivers quite the opposite meaning.

Most people who reject Christianity quite often do not reject what the message is but rather the tone of how it is delivered.  When we speak of sin and sinfulness and the failings of others, we ought to pay attention as to how we really feel when we are speaking.

People know when we are disgusted by them.  They sense how much we despise them.

Do you want to bring the gay man to repentance, not to 'reprogram' into a 'heterosexual,' but to get him to stop actively engaging in his own degradation?  First, you must love him, and not merely in a principled or an intellectual way, but as a human being.

If we have failed, it is because we relish in talking about condemnation and do not have love for those who are afflicted with the burdens of their temptations and sins.  People see that, and they know that to approach that person is to enter the presence of someone who will spend the entirety of the relationship fighting their own revulsion.  That's a really hard thing to ask other to embrace: "Yes, I will try to care for you once the nausea passes."

I am not one to compromise on the morality of the Church, but I don't think anyone should enjoy the demise of another, and to be disgusted with another person due to the burden of his temptation is a sure sign that one has not looked deep enough into one's own passions.  If you spend all of your time railing against the world, how much effort do you undertake to expose your own sins?  How do you have the energy?

In my ministry, I have sat with gay people who have resolved to live a life of celibacy for the sake of Christ, something I was too cowardly to do when I was new to the Church.  I chose marriage perhaps even for the wrong reasons, but one of them certainly was that I thought it impossible to go without physical companionship.  My opinion as that those who have made the choice to live in celibacy though they are oriented towards the same sex deserve far more respect than I will ever deserve.

If you point this out to the 'culture warriors,' they will more than likely agree... up until they mount the soap box and start howling again.  Perhaps it will be Bruno Mars or Miley Cyrus that will catch their attention.  I don't know who they are (that is, I can't identify their voices), and I am grateful for that. 

This era is marked with naked hatred and contempt for our fellow citizen and our fellow human being.  It has to stop.  We are dying from hostility.

We don't need sermons or speeches or teachings that drive us apart.  Think about it: when you say, "This guy is awesome!" are you saying that because he stirs you to compassion for those fallen to sin, or because he's justifying your rage and revulsion?

All the Church has to offer is love.  If we don't offer that, then we offer nothing.

Removed quoted text because I was not specifically respond to that dialog.

 

LenInSebastopol

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Minnesotan said:
"every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes." - Thomas Jefferson

The American elites have pretty much always been hostile to every form of Christianity that isn't radically-individualistic Protestantism. Obergefell (which Thomas Jefferson would almost certainly have supported were he alive today) isn't so much the death of America as a sign that "American ideals" (which are not the same as Christian ones) are as alive and well as ever.

To quote Chicago, "you can't really say it's over, when it never had begun".
I think otherwise. I think it is the death of one nation in one country. We now have two nations, one respecting the law and the other lawless and increasingly anthropocentric. It is time to separate or at least to tame that unconstitutional beast called the SCOTUS.
Our Constitution allows Congress to reign in SCOTUS.
None of those critters on The Hill would dare though.

Article 3, Section 2
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
 

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Once again I am debating in my mind as to whether I should say something about Fr. Giryus or not.  A priest should be humble and I would not want my words to cause him to sin.
 

ialmisry

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minasoliman said:
ialmisry said:
minasoliman said:
Tikhon29605 said:
Arachne said:
Tikhon29605 said:
I guess I must be a cave dweller, but who is this Bruno Mars person?  I've never heard of him.
Teenybopper pop star. Tweens and teens like his stuff; you're not missing out on anything. Having a go at him for immoral lyrical content is like trying to crack nuts with a sledgehammer.
Thanks for the info.  Perhaps I am just old-fashioned, but I just don't listen to music that offends me.  It would never occur to me to protest such music or speak out against it publicly.  Life is too precious and too short to ruin it by fighting at every dragon that comes along. No wonder Father Josiah seems so tired and angry.  It must really be exhausting to thing you have to be the world's moral police.
He seems to run out of spiritual content for sermons and just finds that pop culture is fair game for commentary in the liturgy :p
Would you say that, say, to St. John Chrysostom...and any number of Fathers who devoted sermons on the pop culture of their day? (I remember a Russian story where a bishop told a priest to get his sermons from the Fathers. The priest just read sermons from the Fathers, with ridiculous results: no one in the village went to the chariot races).
Did St. John Chrysostom ever name a specific chariot racer and spend a whole sermon refuting his every statement or moves, or was he speaking about chariot racing in general and discussed Christian spirituality and the gospel of Christ?
the complaint was about the people going to the races.

And not a fair comparison, as not all of Fr. Josiah's sermon is on Bruno Mars, nor BM's every statement nor moves.

I suspect such sermons would become lost works of the Golden-Mouthed, much like 50 years from now people will be asking "who is he talking about in the sermon"? Of relevance to the generation addressed.

As for the sermon of the OP. Such a sermon given 50 years ago would be different (if not unthinkable). 30 years ago it would have been different. 50 years from now, it will be different, or perhaps not needed.
 

minasoliman

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No of course I'm not saying Fr. Josiah is always talking about Bruno Mars.  But given the pattern that he would spend so much breathe talking about specific individuals, like Bruno Mars or SCOTUS judges, it makes me wonder if there should be a certain principle of homiletics we need to understand and uphold.  I do not think we can compare St. John Chrysostom to these two examples of Fr. Josiah.
 

ialmisry

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minasoliman said:
No of course I'm not saying Fr. Josiah is always talking about Bruno Mars.  But given the pattern that he would spend so much breathe talking about specific individuals, like Bruno Mars or SCOTUS judges, it makes me wonder if there should be a certain principle of homiletics we need to understand and uphold.  I do not think we can compare St. John Chrysostom to these two examples of Fr. Josiah.
St. John had PLENTY to say about the politics and politicians of his day. It's largely what got him exiled.
 

LenInSebastopol

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I know that Divine Liturgy is the only 'Thing' in this world that matters, truly.
Howsoever  if The Temple were on fire Fr. Josiah would tell all to leave now.
America, via SCOTUS' determination is on fire. And he said so.
I tend to think this was the best way to promulgate that message to a larger audience.
Yes, he COULD have done it your way and he may have placed Orthodox tradition aside, but if his Bishop slaps him down then that is how they role.  All else are like belly buttons.
I still have Proestant fiends querying me on the Orthodox stance of such.
Personally it is time, as an American Orthodox to have more speak out on our culture, and no, if a priest did this every week I would find another Orthodox church. This sermon made clear the gravity of the court's decision and far reaching affects.
He needs prayers for discernment. He's got mine.
 
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