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Gambling

SolEX01

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Some GOA Churches in my area raffle cars 3-4 times a year.

Some Churches have raffles.

Some Churches forbid gambling of any kind.

As for teaching, Church would rather not have anyone gamble other than gambling is just as much of a free will decision as anything else.
 

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SolEX01 said:
Some GOA Churches in my area raffle cars 3-4 times a year.
The Church...or some club of parishioners like AHEPA, Sons of Pericles, or whatever?
 

SolEX01

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Αριστοκλής said:
SolEX01 said:
Some GOA Churches in my area raffle cars 3-4 times a year.
The Church...
Yes, the Church.  In DC Metro area alone, One GOA Church in DC raffles a Lexus every 6 months; another GOA Church raffles Jeep/Chrysler products every 3-4 months (One Parishioner owns a Chrysler/Jeep dealership) and another GOA Church in DC raffles a Mercedes at their Greek Festival.
 

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GabrieltheCelt said:
OK, so what's the Orthodox consensus on gambling?  I bet I get more than one viewpoint. :p
There is a degree of normalcy that can be OK. Just like drinking, eating and many other things which can be abused.
 

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GabrieltheCelt said:
OK, so what's the Orthodox consensus on gambling?  I bet I get more than one viewpoint. :p
Gambling is a no-no.  Parishes that do have raffles periodically do so because (a) the hierarch is willfully blind to it, (b) they hide it from him, or (c) he doesn't classify a raffle as gambling.

Our Metropolitan has said multiple times that gambling, including raffles, is against the scripture, canons, and tradition of the Church, and has repeatedly reinforced his ban on it. 

http://pittsburgh.goarch.org/administration/documents/GamblingProhibited.pdf

Not only has he decreed it, but our Metropolis Clergy-Laity Assembly has voted gambling/raffles/bingo out, and they're (our Metropolis C-L) considering a resolution to the next Archdiocese C-L Congress.
 

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I like the stand Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh has taken against gambling.  I wish every other Metropolitan and the Archidiocesan District would follow suit especially with possible sanctions like losing priest vacations and removing Parish Council Presidents from office for gambling.

I know someone who won a Lexus at a Church raffle; He was trying to convince me to buy a ticket for $100 and I told him I couldn't do it.   ::)

Edit to give proper respect to Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsurgh vs. mere Pittsburgh....
 

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There is no question about it. Gambling is wrong. But lets see, so is not following the fasting rules of the Church. Which I'm sure all of us here follow too the letter. ;D
 

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Difference is Churches publicize raffles.

Fasting is not something to be publicized according to Matthew 6:16-18.

16 “Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

Fasting also involves things other than food....
 

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Demetrios G. said:
There is no question about it. Gambling is wrong. But lets see, so is not following the fasting rules of the Church. Which I'm sure all of us here follow too the letter. ;D
When gambling is sponsored or condoned by the Church, then it's different than our individual inability to fast properly.  An apples to apples comparison with church-sponsored (or church-association-sponsored) gambling would be a Church Palm Sunday Luncheon with Fillet Mignon on the menu.
 

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cleveland said:
Demetrios G. said:
There is no question about it. Gambling is wrong. But lets see, so is not following the fasting rules of the Church. Which I'm sure all of us here follow too the letter. ;D
When gambling is sponsored or condoned by the Church, then it's different than our individual inability to fast properly.  An apples to apples comparison with church-sponsored (or church-association-sponsored) gambling would be a Church Palm Sunday Luncheon with Fillet Mignon on the menu.
I whole heatedly agree that Churches shouldn't be in the business of promoting gambling. Even when it is necessary for there existence. Let us call the laypeople that engage in this type of fund raising sinners. While we call the Church righteous for excepting the funds while condemning the sinners.  :-X
 

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SolEX01 said:
Difference is Churches publicize raffles.

Fasting is not something to be publicized according to Matthew 6:16-18.
No, not exactly. It says that we shouldn't be like the hypocrites.
 

SolEX01

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Demetrios G. said:
SolEX01 said:
Difference is Churches publicize raffles.

Fasting is not something to be publicized according to Matthew 6:16-18.
No, not exactly. It says that we shouldn't be like the hypocrites.
Hmmm - God sees Churches, lacking in faith and stewardship, resort to raffles.  The topic of fasting has probably been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.  I thought the passage of Scripture delineated those with a sad countenance like we need to raise money for <such and such> vs. those who try to abide by the fasting canons of the Church.  If I misunderstood you, my humble apologies.  :)
 

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Demetrios G. said:
I whole heatedly agree that Churches shouldn't be in the business of promoting gambling. Even when it is necessary for there existence. Let us call the laypeople that engage in this type of fund raising sinners. While we call the Church righteous for excepting the funds while condemning the sinners.  :-X 
Yikes.  You know where you went wrong?  With the "Even when it is necessary for there existence" part.  (No, I'm not criticizing the common there/their mistake...)  Gambling is never necessary for a Church's existence.  Charity, hard work, and Stewardship are necessary for the Church's financial stability.  The Church should never host, accept the proceeds of, or give tacit approval to any form of gambling.  We're supposed to give of ourselves, our earthly riches, our time, and talent to the Church; we're not supposed to engage in games of chance to make up for our own unwillingness to give.
 

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SolEX01 said:
Αριστοκλής said:
SolEX01 said:
Some GOA Churches in my area raffle cars 3-4 times a year.
The Church...
Yes, the Church.  In DC Metro area alone, One GOA Church in DC raffles a Lexus every 6 months; another GOA Church raffles Jeep/Chrysler products every 3-4 months (One Parishioner owns a Chrysler/Jeep dealership) and another GOA Church in DC raffles a Mercedes at their Greek Festival.
Move to Pittsburgh. My parish has discontinued the annual "food festival" even, increasing parishioner giving to replace it.
 

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SolEX01 said:
Demetrios G. said:
SolEX01 said:
Difference is Churches publicize raffles.

Fasting is not something to be publicized according to Matthew 6:16-18.
No, not exactly. It says that we shouldn't be like the hypocrites.
Hmmm - God sees Churches, lacking in faith and stewardship, resort to raffles. 
This is the world we live in. You are correct, but when you denied the 100 dollar raffle ticket did you run to the collection box and deposit the funds there?

The topic of fasting has probably been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.  I thought the passage of Scripture delineated those with a sad countenance like we need to raise money for <such and such> vs. those who try to abide by the fasting canons of the Church.  If I misunderstood you, my humble apologies.   :)

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm so hard on you. I am trying to prove a point. My humble apologies as well.
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
Move to Pittsburgh. My parish has discontinued the annual "food festival" even, increasing parishioner giving to replace it.
Everyone ought to follow your Church's example.  ;)

I do like the Pittsburgh area although there are too many neighborhoods to choose from - north side, south side, et al.  That's for another thread.  ;D
 

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Demetrios G. said:
This is the world we live in. You are correct, but when you denied the 100 dollar raffle ticket did you run to the collection box and deposit the funds there?
Honestly, no.  I haven't made a Stewardship Contribution to any Church in 2008 .

The topic of fasting has probably been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.  I thought the passage of Scripture delineated those with a sad countenance like we need to raise money for <such and such> vs. those who try to abide by the fasting canons of the Church.  If I misunderstood you, my humble apologies.   :)

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm so hard on you. I am trying to prove a point. My humble apologies as well.
You weren't being hard on me.   8)
I just wanted to understand your point better because we may have been talking over each other.  We could be in total agreement and not know it.   ;)
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
Move to Pittsburgh. My parish has discontinued the annual "food festival" even, increasing parishioner giving to replace it.
Which parish ended their food festival? (Respond via PM)
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
SolEX01 said:
Αριστοκλής said:
SolEX01 said:
Some GOA Churches in my area raffle cars 3-4 times a year.
The Church...
Yes, the Church.  In DC Metro area alone, One GOA Church in DC raffles a Lexus every 6 months; another GOA Church raffles Jeep/Chrysler products every 3-4 months (One Parishioner owns a Chrysler/Jeep dealership) and another GOA Church in DC raffles a Mercedes at their Greek Festival.
Move to Pittsburgh. My parish has discontinued the annual "food festival" even, increasing parishioner giving to replace it.
Tell us the truth. You 2nd and 3rd generation Greeks seem to have forgotten how to cook. Joke ;)
 

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cleveland said:
Demetrios G. said:
I whole heatedly agree that Churches shouldn't be in the business of promoting gambling. Even when it is necessary for there existence. Let us call the laypeople that engage in this type of fund raising sinners. While we call the Church righteous for excepting the funds while condemning the sinners.  :-X 
Yikes.  You know where you went wrong?  With the "Even when it is necessary for there existence" part.  (No, I'm not criticizing the common there/their mistake...)  Gambling is never necessary for a Church's existence.  Charity, hard work, and Stewardship are necessary for the Church's financial stability.  The Church should never host, accept the proceeds of, or give tacit approval to any form of gambling.  We're supposed to give of ourselves, our earthly riches, our time, and talent to the Church; we're not supposed to engage in games of chance to make up for our own unwillingness to give.
Their I fixed it. ;)

Is a raffle really gambling or is it an attempt for the parishioners to give money that would not have other wise bin given. Sort of like ordering delivered food rather than going thought the trouble of cooking.
 

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Demetrios G. said:
Is a raffle really gambling or is it an attempt for the parishioners to give money that would not have other wise bin given. Sort of like ordering delivered food rather than going thought the trouble of cooking.
When you pay $1, $2, or $5 for a raffle ticket, is that money not a bet that you'll win the prize?  How is that not any different from a lottery, which IS generally recognized as gambling?  Can your giving be considered truly generous stewardship if you "gave" with the idea that you might win a material prize for your gift?
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Demetrios G. said:
Is a raffle really gambling or is it an attempt for the parishioners to give money that would not have other wise bin given. Sort of like ordering delivered food rather than going thought the trouble of cooking.
When you pay $1, $2, or $5 for a raffle ticket, is that money not a bet that you'll win the prize? 
It sure is. Why would I buy a ticket if I didn't think I could win and help my church in the process.

How is that not any different from a lottery, which IS generally recognized as gambling? 
Because it is a benefit to my church. The same way someone gives to a charity except this is beneficial to both party's. I could be gambling at Fox woods instead. :angel:



Can your giving be considered truly generous stewardship if you "gave" with the idea that you might win a material prize for your gift?
It sure is generous stewardship. Because everybody knows that someone from the Church counsel always wins. It's fixed that way. ;)
 

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Demetrios G. said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Demetrios G. said:
Is a raffle really gambling or is it an attempt for the parishioners to give money that would not have other wise bin given. Sort of like ordering delivered food rather than going thought the trouble of cooking.
When you pay $1, $2, or $5 for a raffle ticket, is that money not a bet that you'll win the prize? 
It sure is. Why would I buy a ticket if I didn't think I could win and help my church in the process.

How is that not any different from a lottery, which IS generally recognized as gambling? 
Because it is a benefit to my church. The same way someone gives to a charity except this is beneficial to both party's. I could be gambling at Fox woods instead. :angel:



Can your giving be considered truly generous stewardship if you "gave" with the idea that you might win a material prize for your gift?
It sure is generous stewardship. Because everybody knows that someone from the Church counsel always wins. It's fixed that way. ;)
But a raffle is also designed to appeal to the masses who may have never darkened the doorway of an Orthodox church, might have no reason whatsoever to give to the parish, and are betting money only to win a prize.  Is this generous stewardship on the part of the giver?
 

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Demetrios G. said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Demetrios G. said:
Is a raffle really gambling or is it an attempt for the parishioners to give money that would not have other wise bin given. Sort of like ordering delivered food rather than going thought the trouble of cooking.
When you pay $1, $2, or $5 for a raffle ticket, is that money not a bet that you'll win the prize? 
It sure is. Why would I buy a ticket if I didn't think I could win and help my church in the process.
God gave us a way to give to the Church.  It's called a tithe.  If you REALLY want to give to the Church, then make sure to keep current with your tithing. ;)  I know, novel concept, isn't it?
 

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Gambling is just like anything other minor "vice" (such as drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes). No harm done if one is responsible about it and does it in moderation.

Great harm is done when gambling is taken to excess.

While there is nothing ennobling about gambling, I would rather someone gamble (responsibly) than, for example, cheat on a college entrance exam.

Grace to all
Thomas




 

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SolEX01 said:
Fasting also involves things other than food....
Exactly; the food aspect is not even the most important.

It is the denial of self.

Some of us like to argue this since they want to feel comfortable as "fasting orthodox" without having to suffer or appera 'wierd' to co-workers, nieghbors, friends and such. I see these same people "celebrate" what I call 'protestant christmas' and orthodox. Thye do this so the 'kids' "do not miss out". ON WHAT?

Sadly the children that have come of age from this system are the ones who are the farthest from true orthodoxy as adults and are 'virtual-dox' (my own word). 

People agree with the food aspect of "fasting" but are shopping in malls, a going to the movies, and entertaining themselves and enjoying life in various ways albeit with an empty belly.

The fathers say that this is not fasting.

The fathers teach:
The heart is fasting
The ears are fasting
The mind is fasting
The feet are fasting
The hands are fasting
The nose is fasting
The stomach is fasting

So if your stomach is fasting but you use all the other body parts and senses for pleasure or comfort than the fast is false.

WE are to live simple lives during the fast. Work, eat take care of church and family and rest.

WE are to be like monks and nuns during the fast.

We choose to suffer this way to re-align oursleves with the true faith allowing our souls to be enriched with nightly prayer services, daily readings and prayers, vigils at night without having any of our material wants or thirsts for life to take control or get in the way. Its all about the soul and spirit during the fast. The body and its wants, the world and the desire for it is "put on ice" as I hear the younger crowd say.

I know that so much dispensation has been heaped on the faithful to keep people happy that to read what I am saying strikes fury in some people.


 

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Let's not get distracted into a discussion about fasting, unless you want to take it to another thread.  If anyone hasn't noticed, this thread is about gambling.
 

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As regards gambling.

The game of 'chance' is a challenge and not faith.

We are trusting in the unknown and not Jesus Christ who we know and love; who promised that we shall not be without what we need and to put all our trust in him. The game of chance is contrary to that direct command of the Lord.

If we want a Lexus we should ask the Lord to bless us with a means of travel that is suitable to our needs and desires. I would not ask for a Lexus directly (but that is my way) and i will not buy a raffle ticket either to buy a 'chance' at getting it.

If we gamble and give all the proceeds to the church than this may be plausible. I am not sure. For example if I win a Lexus in a church raffle I would take the car as my winnings and go and sell it and give ALL the proceeds to the church. In this way only do I agree with 'gambling' since it is strictly a means of investing in the church and not a means to personal gain by 'chance'.

This is my view.
 

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Demetrios G. said:
It sure is generous stewardship. Because everybody knows that someone from the Church counsel always wins. It's fixed that way. ;)
Not my relative who won the Lexus; He's not on the Parish Council.  ;)
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Demetrios G. said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Demetrios G. said:
Is a raffle really gambling or is it an attempt for the parishioners to give money that would not have other wise bin given. Sort of like ordering delivered food rather than going thought the trouble of cooking.
When you pay $1, $2, or $5 for a raffle ticket, is that money not a bet that you'll win the prize? 
It sure is. Why would I buy a ticket if I didn't think I could win and help my church in the process.

How is that not any different from a lottery, which IS generally recognized as gambling? 
Because it is a benefit to my church. The same way someone gives to a charity except this is beneficial to both party's. I could be gambling at Fox woods instead. :angel:



Can your giving be considered truly generous stewardship if you "gave" with the idea that you might win a material prize for your gift?
It sure is generous stewardship. Because everybody knows that someone from the Church counsel always wins. It's fixed that way. ;)
But a raffle is also designed to appeal to the masses who may have never darkened the doorway of an Orthodox church, might have no reason whatsoever to give to the parish, and are betting money only to win a prize.  Is this generous stewardship on the part of the giver?
If someone is spiritually in order than it doesn't matter.
With your ideology we should replace communion with grape juice because the alcoholics will be offended.
 
  There are people who are stock brokers and gamble with money everyday. Would the church deny a donation because of it? Or there are people that sell products for a 200% profit and make donations. Will the Church deny the money because someone could have went to Walmart and paid half the price?

Have you ever given to a pan handler on a street corner even though he isn't Orthodox? Giving is giving regardless of whether it's a church. It is about your own salvation just as much as it is about the cause.

Everybody knows the money is going to the Church. Raffles simulate giving.
 

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SolEX01 said:
Demetrios G. said:
It sure is generous stewardship. Because everybody knows that someone from the Church counsel always wins. It's fixed that way. ;)
Not my relative who won the Lexus; He's not on the Parish Council.   ;)
Churches usually have the option of cash or the prize. Many choose the cash and give back generously.
 

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I went to the Track two weeks ago. It was more fun then a stroke on your birthday. I won a little

The Lord is going to have to understand...

 

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Demetrios G. said:
Churches usually have the option of cash or the prize. Many choose the cash and give back generously.
After paying taxes on the prize, which is considered income even if sponsored by a non-profit entity according to the IRS.  You can also deduct the $100 raffle ticket as a gambling loss.  ;)

  Winnings from lotteries and raffles are gambling winnings. In addition to cash winnings, you must include in your income the fair market value of bonds, cars, houses, and other noncash prizes.
 

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Demetrios G. said:
If someone is spiritually in order than it doesn't matter.
With your ideology we should replace communion with grape juice because the alcoholics will be offended.
What are we to make of Christ's garments being divided among the Roman soldiers by casting lots, Matthew 27:35?

So, it is OK to cast lots over a car just to benefit a Church founded by the sacrifice Christ made on the Cross?
 

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Marc1152 said:
I went to the Track two weeks ago. It was more fun then a stroke on your birthday. I won a little

The Lord is going to have to understand...
Gotta love the ponies...but when I go I hardly ever wager more than $20-40 in an afternoon...that and a few dollars in drinks. Quite frankly, in this day and age that's about as cheap as an afternoon's entertainment comes. And there's even a chance you'll have it paid for if you place a few good bets.
 

Tzimis

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SolEX01 said:
Demetrios G. said:
If someone is spiritually in order than it doesn't matter.
With your ideology we should replace communion with grape juice because the alcoholics will be offended.
What are we to make of Christ's garments being divided among the Roman soldiers by casting lots, Matthew 27:35?

So, it is OK to cast lots over a car just to benefit a Church founded by the sacrifice Christ made on the Cross?
Should I not gamble on the Church for my salvation?  Everything is a gamble because life itself is uncertain. ;)
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Dont' wanna stop the argume...er, conversation, and I sure don't want to sound like I'm judging any one, but I've read enough arguments against gambling to see that it should be avoided.  Again, don't want to sound judgemental.
 

SolEX01

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Demetrios G. said:
Should I not gamble on the Church for my salvation?  Everything is a gamble because life itself is uncertain. ;)
The Church is shaped like a ship for a reason because She is a refuge from an uncertain world, not the lottery, not the casino and not the slot machine.  ;)
 

Tzimis

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GabrieltheCelt said:
Dont' wanna stop the argume...er, conversation, and I sure don't want to sound like I'm judging any one, but I've read enough arguments against gambling to see that it should be avoided.  Again, don't want to sound judgemental.
I have seen what abusive drinking can do. Does that mean that no one should drink alcohol because someone who is spiritually weak can fall victim to it. There is always an underline problem when people abuse anything. Shouldn't we deal with that problem rather then ban the substance of abuse. That's like blaming the pen for a spelling error.
 
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