Gay marriage could signal return to ‘centuries of persecution’, say RCC priests

augustin717

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
6,850
Reaction score
0
Points
0
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.
William said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.
Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
 

Shanghaiski

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Location
Wisconsin, USA
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.
William said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.
Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.
Except you tend to misattribute Protestant Fundamentalism to people who never had it. That dog don't hunt as well as you think it does.
 

Shanghaiski

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Here is what one Orthodox fool for Christ, Crazy John, did for a transvestite:

http://www.oodegr.com/english/psyxotherap/crazy_john2.htm
 

Kerdy

Taxiarches
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
5,813
Reaction score
0
Points
0
augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?
 

88Devin12

Protokentarchos
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
5,182
Reaction score
0
Points
0
There are some good lectures/talks given on Ancient Faith Radio on this whole topic by Fr. Thomas Hopko, Frederica Mathewes-Green and Steve Robinson.

First comes Christ, the Gospel and the Church, then you can talk about sin. When you go to an Orthodox Church as an inquirer, you don't immediately have confession, catechism comes first, learning the Gospel comes first, and then confession, baptism and chrismation.

Also, you aren't going to turn gays into straight people. They will live with the struggle as much as us straight people have to live in our struggle of unhealthy sexual attraction. Upon inquiring we aren't told that we are sinful, lustful people, we talk about Christ's Gospel first, and the Church, and the Orthodox faith, then we start working out our repentance.

Protestants, especially the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals put the former before the latter, they practice what is called proselytism, which is basically the same as Muslims using a sword to convert people. Whereas we use the Gospel, we evangelize people.
 

orthonorm

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
17,715
Reaction score
0
Points
0
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
Formatting mine.
 

Kerdy

Taxiarches
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
5,813
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Shanghaiski said:
Except you tend to misattribute Protestant Fundamentalism to people who never had it. That dog don't hunt as well as you think it does.
I don’t want to dismiss his point of view prematurely.  I am genuinely interested in what he has to say, but I do want him to explain it in enough detail for a meat head like myself to understand.  However, you make an excellent point!
 

augustin717

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
6,850
Reaction score
0
Points
0
My opinion is that the official discourse of the church -insofar as it can be called official- with regards to homosexuality and a few other things is really left behind . Heck, in Romania I recall,  around the year 2000 or so many a religious organizations and clergy were on the streets protesting the de-criminalization of homosexual sex in a quite hysterical tone. IIRC even the patriarchate issued some encouragement to that. Moments like these are revealing. You see, behind the whatever theological and moral reasons are put in front, the real animating sentiment of this proudly "uncompromising attitude' is just some banal prejudices and the yuck factor.  Some would say that's somehow nature. I know, I used to suffer from the yuck factor too. But I grew up I reckon.
It's like you know "scientific creationism" vs scientific approaches. So talking about the position of the church it's like beating a dead horse, mostly. Who wants to change it will have to patiently work from the inside or else if it affects them personally either heroically submit to all the rules or find a modus vivendi where they'll just do whatever they think it's right without causing a ruckus; and there are sympathetic clergy that will do what they can to help you. But things will have to be done in a low-key "pastoral" way.
Debates like these, AFIK are largely absent in religious circles in Orthodox countries, because the people are more uniformly homophobic if you push them, although. otherwise, homosexuality isn't really on their radar. But here in America, since the society is more evenly split on it, even religious people debate it. When that's gonna reach the orthodox ur-land you'll have these debates there too. And only then is realistic to hope that something will officially change.
 

Shanghaiski

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Kerdy said:
augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?
I believe he was referring to what some in Orthodox countries, who have never been Evangelical Protestants, do.
 

Kerdy

Taxiarches
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
5,813
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Shanghaiski said:
Kerdy said:
augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?
I believe he was referring to what some in Orthodox countries, who have never been Evangelical Protestants, do.
I see.  In that case, I withdraw my previous statement.
 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I agree.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

It takes courage and faith to speak the truth in love.
 

Shanghaiski

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

It takes courage and faith to speak the truth in love.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
Give an example then. Notice that it does take courage and faith to speak the truth in love.

 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, is damning when these satanic lies lead to damnation.
 

Shanghaiski

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Maria said:
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
Give an example then.
Okay. There are many examples in the Desert Fathers where a brother is committing or has committed some sin and the particular Abba says nothing to him, but instead commends him to God. There are other incidents where an Abba has seen a brother committing a sin and reproached the sinner, and then has to repent for it later.

In Ezekiel 8-9 (IIRC), the people that are saved are those who do not take part in the iniquities of the city, but instead groan over them. It does not say they told anyone anything, but rather that they mourned and did not take part in the iniquity.
 

Shanghaiski

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Maria said:
Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.
God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.
 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.
God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.
For shame.
Your comment is not relevant nor appropriate to this discussion.
 

Shanghaiski

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Messages
7,981
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Maria said:
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.
God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.
For shame.
Your comment is not relevant nor appropriate to this discussion.
Keep your shame. I think it does. But whatever.
 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
Give an example then.
Okay. There are many examples in the Desert Fathers where a brother is committing or has committed some sin and the particular Abba says nothing to him, but instead commends him to God. There are other incidents where an Abba has seen a brother committing a sin and reproached the sinner, and then has to repent for it later.

In Ezekiel 8-9 (IIRC), the people that are saved are those who do not take part in the iniquities of the city, but instead groan over them. It does not say they told anyone anything, but rather that they mourned and did not take part in the iniquity.
Okay. Those examples all fail because you have taken them out of context.

In some cases, when a sinner fails, speaking to him will be in vain because the sinner has hardened his heart.
Thus, if a homosexual comes to me and says that his love for his partner will purify him, he is so convinced in his lies that nothing I could say would be of benefit.
Then we should walk away as the scriptures say and dust our feet.

In the other case, if someone with a proud and unrepentant heart (like the Westboro BC) were to try to correct a homosexual and that homosexual became hardened as a result of that prideful action of the preacher, then yes, it would have been better for the preacher to remain silent.

 

Maria

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
14,023
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
USA
Website
www.euphrosynoscafe.com
However, this discussion is about "centuries of persecution" returning because of governments allowing homosexual marriage and thus preventing Christians from reading passages from St. Paul without penalties.

We already are experiencing this in California.

If we do not speak up, we will lose our freedom of religion.
However, if we do speak up, it is already too late.

 
Top