Gay marriage could signal return to ‘centuries of persecution’, say RCC priests

stavros_388

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Charles Martel said:
And I love how your kind gets all uppidity and loves to make accusations while pontificating about tradtional "Christian luuuvvve" while you can barley contain your contempt for us nasty ol "judgmental" folk.
Christian phoneys......the worst.
If you do know the scriptures so well, you may have taken notice that Jesus, too, pontificates about "Christian luuuvvve" while barely containing his contempt for nasty ol' judgmental folk. Perhaps you skimmed over those parts in order to find reasons to justify your contempt for those wicked sinners that you look down upon and "despise" until they are repentant to your satisfaction.
 

theistgal

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stavros_388 said:
Charles Martel said:
And I love how your kind gets all uppidity and loves to make accusations while pontificating about tradtional "Christian luuuvvve" while you can barley contain your contempt for us nasty ol "judgmental" folk.
Christian phoneys......the worst.
If you do know the scriptures so well, you may have taken notice that Jesus, too, pontificates about "Christian luuuvvve" while barely containing his contempt for nasty ol' judgmental folk. Perhaps you skimmed over those parts in order to find reasons to justify your contempt for those wicked sinners that you look down upon and "despise" until they are repentant to your satisfaction.
Isn't it judgmental to show contempt for people you deem "judgmental"?
 

Achronos

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Don't see what the big deal is about gay marriage.

It's not like heterosexual marraiges mean anything anymore either.
 

Achronos

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theistgal said:
Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.
I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.
 

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Shanghaiski said:
William said:
JamesRottnek said:
theistgal said:
Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.
As does Bishop Gene Robinson
Yeah, but he's wrong.
And twice over, getting married after being made a bishop.  :p
I mean once you've had an atheist bishop there's really no more room for the floodgates to open anymore. Maybe an axe-murderer wouldn't qualify.
 

Kerdy

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Jetavan said:
Kerdy said:
Homosexuals already had a legal and binding civil union.  On paper, it’s the same thing as marriage. 
Are you sure about that?

In Illinois, a civil union is a legal relationship between two people — either of the same or different sex — providing all of the legal obligations, responsibilities, protections and benefits that the law of Illinois grants to married couples. But a civil union is not a marriage; a civil union does not provide federal protections or responsibilities to couples who enter into one, and a civil union will be recognized only in certain other states, not by all states.
Yes, very sure.  The states which provided this ensured it was legally equivalent.  Of course, each state has its own provisions, but it's the same.  In what you cited, you seem to forget marriage is controlled by state entities, not federal, as described multiple times by SCOTUS.  I have never seen a federal marriage certificate.  They are issued by each state.
 

Kerdy

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Cyrillic said:
Andrew Crook said:
If Christians would stop pressuring Congress into making abortions and gay marriage illegal, then they wouldn't be considered hate organizations.
If the world hates you, understand that it hated Me before it hated you. (John 15:18)
WAAAAAY out of context.
 

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JamesRottnek said:
Charles Martel said:
stavros_388 said:
Charles Martel said:
JamesRottnek said:
Kerdy said:
JamesRottnek said:
Charles Martel said:
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
Nephi said:
Charles Martel said:
Homosexual:ho·mo·sex·u·al/ˌhoʊ məˈsɛk ʃu əl or, esp. British, -ˈsɛks yu-/ Show Spelled [hoh-muh-sek-shoo-uh l or, esp. British, -seks-yoo-] Show IPA
adjective 
1. of, pertaining to, or exhibiting homosexuality.
2. of, pertaining to, or noting the same sex.
This is the problem definition. I think he's making the distinction between "homosexual (the person)" and "homosexual behavior/activities," which are very different meanings meant by "homosexual" in this context. So if one says "anti-homosexual" it could mean "anti-homosexual (the person)" or "anti-homosexual behavior/activities."
Let me ask you this.......would he make the same distinction between pedophile and pedophilia?
One is activity and one is a person.
Can you separate one from the other?

If I murder someone am I not a murderer?

If I fornicate with someone am I not a fornicator?

If I blaspheme the name of God am I not a blasphemer?

You can not do one thing and say you have nothing to do with it.
So you hate all men, yes?
Could you elaborate?  I am not clear how you came to this conclusion.
Romans 12:9, "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."  Is sin evil?  If it is, then Martel says we are to hate all men.
Yes, sin is evil and those in the act of sinning are evil. what do you want to hear? Do you take sin that lightly? Do you believe the Lord does? You are a fool if you take God for granted and depend soley on his mercy and love. We will all one day be held accountable for every sin, every thought, every slight in the eyes of God. True, God is a loving and merciful God but he is also a Righteous and Just one as well and we are all under his judgment at the appointed time. Don't think for a second that you can trivialize a sin because   God said we must be "sincere" in our love, acutally if that's the case, then we should speak out even more to the homosexual for the error in his ways and the corruption he sows to others, especially children who are easily decieved with this culture and it's stamp of approval on sodomy and fornication and a host of other sins.

But yes, we are to despise the homosexual if he is not repentant and actively engages in his debased "lifestyle". Seems many on here as well as everywhere else want some special rules for homosexuals, like in the secular world, we have to treat them and their sin like it's something special with special considerations and watch how we address them or we are to be taken as "haters" and "bigots" well you can count me out. I will call them out and name their sin, they are no better than anyone else regardless of how much browbeating and shaming we get from the immoral secularists and the powers that be from the well financed "gay" mafia that threaten and intimidate anyone in their way in getting what they want and what they want is simple; acceptance and legitimacy. We seem to be just about there, here in the "real world" where they call evil "good" and good "evil" or what they now label the "new normal".

So that's where we're at now, that even in the church we can't even call men bedding down with other men something that's "evil" and a sin which God said he hates without being called "haters" ourselves. The New Church of Sodom, open acceptance for one and all, no matter what deviancy you cling to becaue after all, God will still "wuv" you very much. Good luck with that.
Your attitude sucks. And is un-Christian. We are not to "despise the homosexual", or any human being for that matter. I suggest that you go back to the basics and re-read the Gospels.
I said when they are "unrepentant" and choose to engage in their "lifestyle" regardless when they have been convicted in their sin. God has even pointedly states that he considers homosexuality an "abomination" in the O.T. and St. Paul fiercly condemns it in almost the whole chapter of !st Romans in the N.T. God even destroyed two cities over the Sin of Sodom, a sin which the Church declares that "cries out to heaven for vengeance"

So don't worry about me, I've read and re-read scipture and Church teaching on this and it is very clear.

I'm sorry if it offends you. take it up with God.
Actually God never calls anything an abomination in the Old Testament.  Rather, God calls it to’ebah.  That word has a meaning closer to "unclean," than to the English "abomination."  Other examples of things called to'ebah are wearing clothes made of more than one kind of thread, eating shellfish, as is sacrificing a blemished or defective animal to God.  The first use of the term actually comes in Genesis where it is said that the Egyptians wouldn't dine with Joseph's brother, for it was to'ebah to them.  

Please get educated.
I have learned there is always more than one definition to ancient words and context is how we figure out which one to use.
 

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From the Telegraph as quoted by a government official at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9795680/Gay-marriage-could-signal-return-to-centuries-of-persecution-say-1000-Catholic-priests.html

Schools have a requirement to ensure they do not teach anything that would be considered inappropriate to a pupil’s age, religious or cultural background and they must ensure pupils are presented with balanced, factual information about the nature and importance of marriage for family life and bringing up children.
Down the slippery slope into hell.

Oh, yeah, California said the same thing as the UK government official, but with California's new laws, homosexual marriage must be presented as part of the normal lifestyle. Thus, teachers in public schools have great difficulty presenting a "balanced view." Those "tolerant" of gay marriage are very "intolerant" of marriage as presented by Catholics and Orthodox Christians.
 

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lovesupreme said:
I love homosexuals so much.

I am consistently amazed at how people so easily miss the point.  One would think I would get used to this, but I never do. :(
 

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Achronos said:
theistgal said:
Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.
I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.
That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.
 

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Kerdy said:
lovesupreme said:
I love homosexuals so much.

I am consistently amazed at how people so easily miss the point.  One would think I would get used to this, but I never do. :(
Could remake it. Change "gay people" to Nazis and watch people squirm.
 

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Maria said:
From the Telegraph as quoted by a government official at
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9795680/Gay-marriage-could-signal-return-to-centuries-of-persecution-say-1000-Catholic-priests.html

Schools have a requirement to ensure they do not teach anything that would be considered inappropriate to a pupil’s age, religious or cultural background and they must ensure pupils are presented with balanced, factual information about the nature and importance of marriage for family life and bringing up children.
Down the slippery slope into hell.

Oh, yeah, California said the same thing as the UK government official, but with California's new laws, homosexual marriage must be presented as part of the normal lifestyle. Thus, teachers in public schools have great difficulty presenting a "balanced view." Those "tolerant" of gay marriage are very "intolerant" of marriage as presented by Catholics and Orthodox Christians.
This is why I will never reside in any state even similar to California.
 

Achronos

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Kerdy said:
Achronos said:
theistgal said:
Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.
I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.
That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.
No it does not. But that requires a reconstruction of society from what I can see.
 

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Shanghaiski said:
Kerdy said:
lovesupreme said:
I love homosexuals so much.

I am consistently amazed at how people so easily miss the point.  One would think I would get used to this, but I never do. :(
Could remake it. Change "gay people" to Nazis and watch people squirm.
It’s as if they believe one liner quips make doctrine.
 

Kerdy

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Achronos said:
Kerdy said:
Achronos said:
theistgal said:
Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.
I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.
That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.
No it does not. But that requires a reconstruction of society from what I can see.
The reason things have gotten so bad is BECAUSE of this sort of thing (not in spite of it) and the apathy of Christians.
 

Shanghaiski

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Kerdy said:
Shanghaiski said:
Kerdy said:
lovesupreme said:
I love homosexuals so much.

I am consistently amazed at how people so easily miss the point.  One would think I would get used to this, but I never do. :(
Could remake it. Change "gay people" to Nazis and watch people squirm.
It’s as if they believe one liner quips make doctrine.
It works for relativists.
 

Shanghaiski

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Kerdy said:
Achronos said:
Kerdy said:
Achronos said:
theistgal said:
Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.
I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.
That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.
No it does not. But that requires a reconstruction of society from what I can see.
The reason things have gotten so bad is BECAUSE of this sort of thing (not in spite of it) and the apathy of Christians.
Largely. However, we've been centuries in getting to this point.
 

Achronos

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Kerdy said:
Achronos said:
Kerdy said:
Achronos said:
theistgal said:
Achronos, I'd like to think my marriage means something.
I think you know what I'm getting at, though.

Marriages these days doesn't have the value that it used to.

Yes I am broad-brushing, but this is the picture we have painted recently.

For starters, we have removed God out of our marriages.
That doesn't mean we just give up and give in.
No it does not. But that requires a reconstruction of society from what I can see.
The reason things have gotten so bad is BECAUSE of this sort of thing (not in spite of it) and the apathy of Christians.
Yeah if Christians actually did praxis the world would change overnight.
 

88Devin12

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One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
 

Achronos

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88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
That's refreshing coming from you, Devin.
 

JamesRottnek

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Kerdy said:
JamesRottnek said:
Charles Martel said:
stavros_388 said:
Charles Martel said:
JamesRottnek said:
Kerdy said:
JamesRottnek said:
Charles Martel said:
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
Nephi said:
Charles Martel said:
Homosexual:ho·mo·sex·u·al/ˌhoʊ məˈsɛk ʃu əl or, esp. British, -ˈsɛks yu-/ Show Spelled [hoh-muh-sek-shoo-uh l or, esp. British, -seks-yoo-] Show IPA
adjective 
1. of, pertaining to, or exhibiting homosexuality.
2. of, pertaining to, or noting the same sex.
This is the problem definition. I think he's making the distinction between "homosexual (the person)" and "homosexual behavior/activities," which are very different meanings meant by "homosexual" in this context. So if one says "anti-homosexual" it could mean "anti-homosexual (the person)" or "anti-homosexual behavior/activities."
Let me ask you this.......would he make the same distinction between pedophile and pedophilia?
One is activity and one is a person.
Can you separate one from the other?

If I murder someone am I not a murderer?

If I fornicate with someone am I not a fornicator?

If I blaspheme the name of God am I not a blasphemer?

You can not do one thing and say you have nothing to do with it.
So you hate all men, yes?
Could you elaborate?  I am not clear how you came to this conclusion.
Romans 12:9, "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."  Is sin evil?  If it is, then Martel says we are to hate all men.
Yes, sin is evil and those in the act of sinning are evil. what do you want to hear? Do you take sin that lightly? Do you believe the Lord does? You are a fool if you take God for granted and depend soley on his mercy and love. We will all one day be held accountable for every sin, every thought, every slight in the eyes of God. True, God is a loving and merciful God but he is also a Righteous and Just one as well and we are all under his judgment at the appointed time. Don't think for a second that you can trivialize a sin because   God said we must be "sincere" in our love, acutally if that's the case, then we should speak out even more to the homosexual for the error in his ways and the corruption he sows to others, especially children who are easily decieved with this culture and it's stamp of approval on sodomy and fornication and a host of other sins.

But yes, we are to despise the homosexual if he is not repentant and actively engages in his debased "lifestyle". Seems many on here as well as everywhere else want some special rules for homosexuals, like in the secular world, we have to treat them and their sin like it's something special with special considerations and watch how we address them or we are to be taken as "haters" and "bigots" well you can count me out. I will call them out and name their sin, they are no better than anyone else regardless of how much browbeating and shaming we get from the immoral secularists and the powers that be from the well financed "gay" mafia that threaten and intimidate anyone in their way in getting what they want and what they want is simple; acceptance and legitimacy. We seem to be just about there, here in the "real world" where they call evil "good" and good "evil" or what they now label the "new normal".

So that's where we're at now, that even in the church we can't even call men bedding down with other men something that's "evil" and a sin which God said he hates without being called "haters" ourselves. The New Church of Sodom, open acceptance for one and all, no matter what deviancy you cling to becaue after all, God will still "wuv" you very much. Good luck with that.
Your attitude sucks. And is un-Christian. We are not to "despise the homosexual", or any human being for that matter. I suggest that you go back to the basics and re-read the Gospels.
I said when they are "unrepentant" and choose to engage in their "lifestyle" regardless when they have been convicted in their sin. God has even pointedly states that he considers homosexuality an "abomination" in the O.T. and St. Paul fiercly condemns it in almost the whole chapter of !st Romans in the N.T. God even destroyed two cities over the Sin of Sodom, a sin which the Church declares that "cries out to heaven for vengeance"

So don't worry about me, I've read and re-read scipture and Church teaching on this and it is very clear.

I'm sorry if it offends you. take it up with God.
Actually God never calls anything an abomination in the Old Testament.  Rather, God calls it to’ebah.  That word has a meaning closer to "unclean," than to the English "abomination."  Other examples of things called to'ebah are wearing clothes made of more than one kind of thread, eating shellfish, as is sacrificing a blemished or defective animal to God.  The first use of the term actually comes in Genesis where it is said that the Egyptians wouldn't dine with Joseph's brother, for it was to'ebah to them.  

Please get educated.
I have learned there is always more than one definition to ancient words and context is how we figure out which one to use.
Thank you for not actually addressing anything I said.
 

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Kerdy said:
Jetavan said:
Kerdy said:
Homosexuals already had a legal and binding civil union.  On paper, it’s the same thing as marriage. 
Are you sure about that?

In Illinois, a civil union is a legal relationship between two people — either of the same or different sex — providing all of the legal obligations, responsibilities, protections and benefits that the law of Illinois grants to married couples. But a civil union is not a marriage; a civil union does not provide federal protections or responsibilities to couples who enter into one, and a civil union will be recognized only in certain other states, not by all states.
Yes, very sure.  The states which provided this ensured it was legally equivalent.  Of course, each state has its own provisions, but it's the same.  In what you cited, you seem to forget marriage is controlled by state entities, not federal, as described multiple times by SCOTUS.  I have never seen a federal marriage certificate.  They are issued by each state.
Unlike in the case of marriage, neither the federal government nor any state need honor another state's civil union laws. So, civil unions are not "the same" as marriage, even on paper.
 

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88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
 

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JamesRottnek said:
Kerdy said:
JamesRottnek said:
Charles Martel said:
stavros_388 said:
Charles Martel said:
JamesRottnek said:
Kerdy said:
JamesRottnek said:
Charles Martel said:
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
Nephi said:
Charles Martel said:
Homosexual:ho·mo·sex·u·al/ˌhoʊ məˈsɛk ʃu əl or, esp. British, -ˈsɛks yu-/ Show Spelled [hoh-muh-sek-shoo-uh l or, esp. British, -seks-yoo-] Show IPA
adjective 
1. of, pertaining to, or exhibiting homosexuality.
2. of, pertaining to, or noting the same sex.
This is the problem definition. I think he's making the distinction between "homosexual (the person)" and "homosexual behavior/activities," which are very different meanings meant by "homosexual" in this context. So if one says "anti-homosexual" it could mean "anti-homosexual (the person)" or "anti-homosexual behavior/activities."
Let me ask you this.......would he make the same distinction between pedophile and pedophilia?
One is activity and one is a person.
Can you separate one from the other?

If I murder someone am I not a murderer?

If I fornicate with someone am I not a fornicator?

If I blaspheme the name of God am I not a blasphemer?

You can not do one thing and say you have nothing to do with it.
So you hate all men, yes?
Could you elaborate?  I am not clear how you came to this conclusion.
Romans 12:9, "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good."  Is sin evil?  If it is, then Martel says we are to hate all men.
Yes, sin is evil and those in the act of sinning are evil. what do you want to hear? Do you take sin that lightly? Do you believe the Lord does? You are a fool if you take God for granted and depend soley on his mercy and love. We will all one day be held accountable for every sin, every thought, every slight in the eyes of God. True, God is a loving and merciful God but he is also a Righteous and Just one as well and we are all under his judgment at the appointed time. Don't think for a second that you can trivialize a sin because   God said we must be "sincere" in our love, acutally if that's the case, then we should speak out even more to the homosexual for the error in his ways and the corruption he sows to others, especially children who are easily decieved with this culture and it's stamp of approval on sodomy and fornication and a host of other sins.

But yes, we are to despise the homosexual if he is not repentant and actively engages in his debased "lifestyle". Seems many on here as well as everywhere else want some special rules for homosexuals, like in the secular world, we have to treat them and their sin like it's something special with special considerations and watch how we address them or we are to be taken as "haters" and "bigots" well you can count me out. I will call them out and name their sin, they are no better than anyone else regardless of how much browbeating and shaming we get from the immoral secularists and the powers that be from the well financed "gay" mafia that threaten and intimidate anyone in their way in getting what they want and what they want is simple; acceptance and legitimacy. We seem to be just about there, here in the "real world" where they call evil "good" and good "evil" or what they now label the "new normal".

So that's where we're at now, that even in the church we can't even call men bedding down with other men something that's "evil" and a sin which God said he hates without being called "haters" ourselves. The New Church of Sodom, open acceptance for one and all, no matter what deviancy you cling to becaue after all, God will still "wuv" you very much. Good luck with that.
Your attitude sucks. And is un-Christian. We are not to "despise the homosexual", or any human being for that matter. I suggest that you go back to the basics and re-read the Gospels.
I said when they are "unrepentant" and choose to engage in their "lifestyle" regardless when they have been convicted in their sin. God has even pointedly states that he considers homosexuality an "abomination" in the O.T. and St. Paul fiercly condemns it in almost the whole chapter of !st Romans in the N.T. God even destroyed two cities over the Sin of Sodom, a sin which the Church declares that "cries out to heaven for vengeance"

So don't worry about me, I've read and re-read scipture and Church teaching on this and it is very clear.

I'm sorry if it offends you. take it up with God.
Actually God never calls anything an abomination in the Old Testament.  Rather, God calls it to’ebah.  That word has a meaning closer to "unclean," than to the English "abomination."  Other examples of things called to'ebah are wearing clothes made of more than one kind of thread, eating shellfish, as is sacrificing a blemished or defective animal to God.  The first use of the term actually comes in Genesis where it is said that the Egyptians wouldn't dine with Joseph's brother, for it was to'ebah to them.  

Please get educated.
I have learned there is always more than one definition to ancient words and context is how we figure out which one to use.
Thank you for not actually addressing anything I said.
I did, but it seems you missed it.
 

88Devin12

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
 

88Devin12

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore. I recall him offering her love and forgiveness and the Gospel first.

This is how the Orthodox Christians and Priests I know are like. However, as I said, many of the Evangelicals and others I've known are as you describe. Many of those Fundamentalists and Evangelicals proselytize. We evangelize. We offer the Gospel, not threats of hellfire and brimstone.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
 

88Devin12

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.
 

Apples

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.
 

88Devin12

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.
William said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.
Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
The sinful woman weeping at His feet in the house of the Pharisee? "Her sins, which were many, are forgiven her because she loved much." That is, she repented and showed her great love for God, whereas the Pharisee neither believed in Him as God nor showed even elementary hospitality for the time in washing His feet and anointing His head.

The Lord was not above harshly reproving sinners in Scripture, but in the Gospels, He reproves those who think they are righteous.

But, there's also "Go and sin no more" and "See, now you are better. Sin no more, lest something worse happen to you."

Love does not mean we ignore sin. However, there is not a one-size-fits-all application. For some people, a reproof is needed. For others, it would crush them.

It is a difficult road to travel, to support the person even while not supporting some of his choices. But the way to do it depends on one's own circumstances and those of the other.

There was a story I read in an Orthodox publication written by a man whose brother and sister, after being abused as children, came out as homosexuals. The writer was married with small children. His siblings were, according to him, very involved in their lifestyle and its defense, and his parents and other family was accepting it as normal. The writer said because of this climate, he has had to separate himself from his siblings, for the sake of his children.

That's got to be a difficult situation. The writer seemed to tout his way of doing things as the only way. I do not at all agree. However, each situation is unique. Sometimes it is necessary to suspend or end a relationship. But even if the reason for this is good, it's still a tragedy. But I think it would be incorrect to place all the blame on one person.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.
William said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.
Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.
Are we then to let them live a lie and stand by supporting them in that lie, knowing they are destroying themselves?  That doesn’t sound right.  Appeasing their sinful acts is in no way, that I can see, beneficial to them or the message of God.  Perhaps if you explain in detail your understanding of what we should, how we should do it, and why, I will be able to see if from your point of view.  As of now, it makes no sense to me.  Let me explain.

Let’s say I have a friend I know sleeps with hookers.  He is married and has small children.  I know hookers aren’t cheap, so he is taking money from his family.  He is also committing adultery, and we know all of the pain and suffering this brings to a family.  Let’s not ignore the fact he most likely is going to catch a nasty little gift and pass it on to his unsuspecting wife, which potentially could orphan his children.  Am I to say nothing?  Am I to do as you suggest and provide my opinions only when he asks, because chances are he isn’t going to ask?  Or, should I confront him in the hopes he will think about his actions and potentially stop them?

I could provide a variety of other scenarios, but the point remains, it is our duty and responsibility to provide instruction to the world and provide them a means to escape their damnation.  Unless I don’t understand the Great Commission, which coincidentally, is paired with the other commandment Jesus gave us.  I believe the two are intertwined and inseparable.
 
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