Gay marriage could signal return to ‘centuries of persecution’, say RCC priests

augustin717

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.
William said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.
Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
 

Shanghaiski

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
You mean this one?

"Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.  The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:  For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly."


He said it, he just said it a nice way.  We can too.
That's the sinful woman, not the prostitute. The two are different. Also, I don't think he's telling her she is sinful in that passage, it's more of a revelation of his omnipotence and that he knows her heart and her life, and things about her that no one else knows.
Either way, regardless of who it is, Jesus told the truth and in this instance, she told the truth on herself.  She knew as others should know, she was living in sin.  I agree we should not be rude, but we should tell the truth.
William said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I don't recall Jesus telling the prostitute that she's a sinful whore.
Yes, but I don't recall Him stating the price of tea in China, either.
Kerdy and William, I know it's hard to accept, but its the truth. It takes a long time to rid ourselves of our Protestant baggage. I started in about '06, was finally baptized in '09 after a long inquiry, and catechism/catechumenate and I'm still working on ridding myself of my Protestant Fundamentalist mindset nearly 4 years since my baptism and 7 years after my first interactions with Orthodoxy. It's an ongoing struggle, but one we must wage as we conform to the Orthodox phronema.
Except you tend to misattribute Protestant Fundamentalism to people who never had it. That dog don't hunt as well as you think it does.
 

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Here is what one Orthodox fool for Christ, Crazy John, did for a transvestite:

http://www.oodegr.com/english/psyxotherap/crazy_john2.htm
 

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augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?
 

88Devin12

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There are some good lectures/talks given on Ancient Faith Radio on this whole topic by Fr. Thomas Hopko, Frederica Mathewes-Green and Steve Robinson.

First comes Christ, the Gospel and the Church, then you can talk about sin. When you go to an Orthodox Church as an inquirer, you don't immediately have confession, catechism comes first, learning the Gospel comes first, and then confession, baptism and chrismation.

Also, you aren't going to turn gays into straight people. They will live with the struggle as much as us straight people have to live in our struggle of unhealthy sexual attraction. Upon inquiring we aren't told that we are sinful, lustful people, we talk about Christ's Gospel first, and the Church, and the Orthodox faith, then we start working out our repentance.

Protestants, especially the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals put the former before the latter, they practice what is called proselytism, which is basically the same as Muslims using a sword to convert people. Whereas we use the Gospel, we evangelize people.
 

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88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
Formatting mine.
 

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Shanghaiski said:
Except you tend to misattribute Protestant Fundamentalism to people who never had it. That dog don't hunt as well as you think it does.
I don’t want to dismiss his point of view prematurely.  I am genuinely interested in what he has to say, but I do want him to explain it in enough detail for a meat head like myself to understand.  However, you make an excellent point!
 

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My opinion is that the official discourse of the church -insofar as it can be called official- with regards to homosexuality and a few other things is really left behind . Heck, in Romania I recall,  around the year 2000 or so many a religious organizations and clergy were on the streets protesting the de-criminalization of homosexual sex in a quite hysterical tone. IIRC even the patriarchate issued some encouragement to that. Moments like these are revealing. You see, behind the whatever theological and moral reasons are put in front, the real animating sentiment of this proudly "uncompromising attitude' is just some banal prejudices and the yuck factor.  Some would say that's somehow nature. I know, I used to suffer from the yuck factor too. But I grew up I reckon.
It's like you know "scientific creationism" vs scientific approaches. So talking about the position of the church it's like beating a dead horse, mostly. Who wants to change it will have to patiently work from the inside or else if it affects them personally either heroically submit to all the rules or find a modus vivendi where they'll just do whatever they think it's right without causing a ruckus; and there are sympathetic clergy that will do what they can to help you. But things will have to be done in a low-key "pastoral" way.
Debates like these, AFIK are largely absent in religious circles in Orthodox countries, because the people are more uniformly homophobic if you push them, although. otherwise, homosexuality isn't really on their radar. But here in America, since the society is more evenly split on it, even religious people debate it. When that's gonna reach the orthodox ur-land you'll have these debates there too. And only then is realistic to hope that something will officially change.
 

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Kerdy said:
augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?
I believe he was referring to what some in Orthodox countries, who have never been Evangelical Protestants, do.
 

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Shanghaiski said:
Kerdy said:
augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
What purpose does childish and snarky comments perform, especially when it doesn’t apply to the people you use it against?
I believe he was referring to what some in Orthodox countries, who have never been Evangelical Protestants, do.
I see.  In that case, I withdraw my previous statement.
 

Maria

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.
I agree.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

It takes courage and faith to speak the truth in love.
 

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Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
 

Maria

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Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.

It takes courage and faith to speak the truth in love.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
Give an example then. Notice that it does take courage and faith to speak the truth in love.

 

Maria

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Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, is damning when these satanic lies lead to damnation.
 

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Maria said:
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
Give an example then.
Okay. There are many examples in the Desert Fathers where a brother is committing or has committed some sin and the particular Abba says nothing to him, but instead commends him to God. There are other incidents where an Abba has seen a brother committing a sin and reproached the sinner, and then has to repent for it later.

In Ezekiel 8-9 (IIRC), the people that are saved are those who do not take part in the iniquities of the city, but instead groan over them. It does not say they told anyone anything, but rather that they mourned and did not take part in the iniquity.
 

Shanghaiski

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Maria said:
Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.
God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.
 

Maria

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Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.
God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.
For shame.
Your comment is not relevant nor appropriate to this discussion.
 

Shanghaiski

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Maria said:
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Christ remaining silent when he was falsely accused would not be an appropriate example pertinent to this discussion.

We are talking about the need to witness to others about the truth of Christianity.
Being silent when lies are being told, lies that can lead to damnation is damning.
God's judgment is more penetrating than yours.
For shame.
Your comment is not relevant nor appropriate to this discussion.
Keep your shame. I think it does. But whatever.
 

Maria

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Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Shanghaiski said:
Maria said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
One of my best friends is gay, I have at least a dozen friends that are either gay or lesbian and I love them all, and I've never told any of them they were sinful or living in sin and I never will. The only time I will tell them what I and my Church thinks is if they ask me.
My brother is a homosexual.  Now what?  I think it important for people to know where you stand, what you believe, and still see you love them.
We have no business forcing our opinions onto them unless they ask us. I don't tell anyone my political or religious opinions in real life unless they ask me.

The imposition of opinions on all peoples, and the idea that all people should know where we stand is more of a feature of Evangelical Protestants than Orthodox Christians, at least from the Orthodox Christians I know.
It's a good thing Jesus didn't follow this standard.  I suppose we will have to disagree.  I feel real love is telling people when they are wrong and letting them see you still accept them as people.

By remaining silent in the face of evil, we give consent.
Not always. I can think of a number of examples from the Scriptures and the Desert Fathers, for example. There were good reasons for keeping silent, but it did not at all signal consent, but rather the opposite. And often it was no less courageous.
Give an example then.
Okay. There are many examples in the Desert Fathers where a brother is committing or has committed some sin and the particular Abba says nothing to him, but instead commends him to God. There are other incidents where an Abba has seen a brother committing a sin and reproached the sinner, and then has to repent for it later.

In Ezekiel 8-9 (IIRC), the people that are saved are those who do not take part in the iniquities of the city, but instead groan over them. It does not say they told anyone anything, but rather that they mourned and did not take part in the iniquity.
Okay. Those examples all fail because you have taken them out of context.

In some cases, when a sinner fails, speaking to him will be in vain because the sinner has hardened his heart.
Thus, if a homosexual comes to me and says that his love for his partner will purify him, he is so convinced in his lies that nothing I could say would be of benefit.
Then we should walk away as the scriptures say and dust our feet.

In the other case, if someone with a proud and unrepentant heart (like the Westboro BC) were to try to correct a homosexual and that homosexual became hardened as a result of that prideful action of the preacher, then yes, it would have been better for the preacher to remain silent.

 

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However, this discussion is about "centuries of persecution" returning because of governments allowing homosexual marriage and thus preventing Christians from reading passages from St. Paul without penalties.

We already are experiencing this in California.

If we do not speak up, we will lose our freedom of religion.
However, if we do speak up, it is already too late.

 

augustin717

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Maria said:
However, this discussion is about "centuries of persecution" returning because of governments allowing homosexual marriage and thus preventing Christians from reading passages from St. Paul without penalties.

We already are experiencing this in California.

If we do not speak up, we will lose our freedom of religion.
However, if we do speak up, it is already too late.


What do you experience I. California? Centuries of persecution? Autos da  with Paul's books on pyres?
What do you experience I. California? Centuries of persecution? Autos da  fe with Paul's books on pyres?
 

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I do find it interesting who is involved with the dissenting opinions here, those defending the method of proselytism and confrontation are either people who have recently come from a Protestant background or who have left for a more fundamentalist/extreme conservative Orthodox group. This is simply a curious observation and not an insult.

Kerdy, I'll be honest, I pray to God the same doesn't happen to you that's happened to other like-minded Orthodox folk, who often end up jumping ship to a break off sect.

One such man I know from Greece did just this. He confessed his sins to a Priest who told him to come take communion and they'll deal with it. He decided his sins were too great and he shouldn't be allowed to commune immediately and so he ended up joining a breakoff group in Greece. This particular group was so extreme and zealous in their sort of fundamentalism that they actually beat the local Bishop with a belt for being an "ecumenist". Needless to say, not all the groups are like that, but still, I hope you don't end up jumping ship to a breakoff sect.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>
If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".
Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.
 

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88Devin12 said:
I do find it interesting who is involved with the dissenting opinions here, those defending the method of proselytism and confrontation are either people who have recently come from a Protestant background or who have left for a more fundamentalist/extreme conservative Orthodox group. This is simply a curious observation and not an insult.

Kerdy, I'll be honest, I pray to God the same doesn't happen to you that's happened to other like-minded Orthodox folk, who often end up jumping ship to a break off sect.

One such man I know from Greece did just this. He confessed his sins to a Priest who told him to come take communion and they'll deal with it. He decided his sins were too great and he shouldn't be allowed to commune immediately and so he ended up joining a breakoff group in Greece. This particular group was so extreme and zealous in their sort of fundamentalism that they actually beat the local Bishop with a belt for being an "ecumenist". Needless to say, not all the groups are like that, but still, I hope you don't end up jumping ship to a breakoff sect.
I appreciate the concern, but it is a little over reactive.  I would settle for a response to my inquiry.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>
If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.
I haven't written any of these. I only suppose Talilot is more knowledgeable than you about modern Judaism and its practices or teachings.

augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
They use firecrackers, smoke bombs and stones here.
 

88Devin12

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PeterTheAleut said:
88Devin12 said:
Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>
If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".
Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.
No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
88Devin12 said:
Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>
If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".
Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.
No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?
As a Protestant, I never believed this.
 

Kerdy

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Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?
 

Kerdy

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Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 said:
Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>
If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.
I haven't written any of these. I only suppose Talilot is more knowledgeable than you about modern Judaism and its practices or teachings.

augustin717 said:
You mean throwing tomatoes and eggs at gay pride attendants?
They use firecrackers, smoke bombs and stones here.
Just speculating here, but maybe they shouldn’t make a spectacle of themselves and be “proud” in the same way the rest of the world is proud.  This does not suggest what people do in anger is ok, but if they didn’t prance up and down the public roadways, they wouldn’t make themselves a target for this sort of stuff.  I don’t know anyone else who holds pride parades.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?
Never
This sort of ends any additional discussion on that matter, doesn't it?

The next question is, does all of the recent developments over the last few decades in favor of public and social acceptance of homosexuality benefit, hinder or hurt the Church as a whole?  Keeping in mind the decline of church attendance, the increased and emboldened attacks on Christianity, the war being waged on the Christmas holiday, mockery of Christians and services, attacks on church buildings, etc.  Also keeping in mind, the same basic arguments being made are the same arguments which were made for abortion.
 

88Devin12

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
PeterTheAleut said:
88Devin12 said:
Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 teaching a Jew about "true" modern Judaism.

<popcorn>
If you're an Orthodox Christian, you have to agree that all of modern Judaism and Jews aren't God's chosen people and are not "Jews" or "Israel", those attributes belong to the Orthodox Church.

Also, even compared to Judaism of the time of Christ, yes, most of modern Judaism is fake and pretend.

You cannot be an Orthodox Christian and believe the Jews are still God's chosen people and are still Jews.

I sincerely hope that modern Judaism (the ones which are liberalizing) dies a terrible, and quick death. Same thing for all of "progressive" and liberal "Christianity".
Is this dogmatic attitude part of the fundamentalist Protestant baggage you're trying so hard to discard? I sure hope so.
No, as a Protestant I believed that the Jews are Gods chosen people and will be saved along with Christians, and that it is our duty to help Israel take over so they could destroy the Dome of the Rock and rebuild the Temple and usher in the end of the world when we and they will be united under Christ.

I'm glad I don't believe that anymore, I shed that baggage years ago.

There is only one true Israel, one inheritor of the covenants, the Orthodox Church. We are Israel, both Gentile and Jew, those Jews who didn't follow Christ are now apostates and abandoned their covenant with God.

This is what the Orthodox Church does teach about itself, it IS Israel.

Peter, why bring an unrelated subject to derail a thread further which is about homosexuality and gay marriage?
As a Protestant, I never believed this.
Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?
Never
Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?
 

88Devin12

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?
Never
Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?
Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.
You, or course, realize one can still be a right-winger, believe in Millennialism, believe in the Tribulation, be a young earth creationist and still be Orthodox, right?  As far as I know, none of these things are considered to be heretical.
 

LBK

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Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.
You, or course, realize one can still be a right-winger, believe in Millennialism, believe in the Tribulation, be a young earth creationist and still be Orthodox, right?  As far as I know, none of these things are considered to be heretical.
Millennialism is indeed a declared heresy for the Orthodox. It's better known as Chiliasm.
 

Kerdy

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?
Never
Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?
Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.
I think we most likely agree more than disagree.  The difference is our approach.  When people see or hear my approach, they seem to always believe it is done in the most cruel and obstinate way. 

I have a Catholic friend who is extremely active in the Pro-Life movement.  He regularly attends gatherings at abortion mills, but they do so very quietly and peacefully.  They as people if they would like literature, if not they leave them alone.  They pray, sometimes all night, but they never get rude or confrontational and at the same time, there is no question where they stand on abortion.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?
Never
Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?
Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.
I'm against making correlation between state marriage and Church mystery.
 

Kerdy

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LBK said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Apparently neither did my parents, I got most of it from TBN, and all sorts of Fundamentalist and Evangelical literature.

I was a full-blown zealous right-wing Protestant Fundamentalist, Pre-Millenialist, Post-Tribulationist, Young Earth Creationist, Adult Baptismist, Anti-Intellectualist, Judgemental Homophobe with strong tendencies towards Messianic Judaism.

Then I realized that wasn't the ancient faith and got introduced to Orthodoxy and I've been shedding that nonsense ever since then. In many ways, by becoming Orthodox, my world and views got turned upside down and I had to totally relearn how to be a Christian and how Orthodox Christians think and what we believe.
You, or course, realize one can still be a right-winger, believe in Millennialism, believe in the Tribulation, be a young earth creationist and still be Orthodox, right?  As far as I know, none of these things are considered to be heretical.
Millennialism is indeed a declared heresy for the Orthodox. It's better known as Chiliasm.
Odd, I looked it up before I posted to be sure and it didn't say this.  What it did say was, "The view of the Orthodox Church can best be described as "amillenialist"; that is, holding to the teaching that the thousand years mentioned in the Apocalypse refers to the current age of the Church."  So I guess it depends on what you place prior to Mellennialism (Post, Pre, A).
 

Kerdy

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Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
88Devin12 said:
Kerdy said:
Back on subject.  Does God condone and bless homosexual "marriages" as a sacrament?
Never
Also, when the Church says no, it is labeled a hate group and retaliated against in full force as being a bunch of Draconian homophobes.  Is this not considered persecution?
Such is life as a Christian.

I'm against proselytizing and forcing our church on anyone. But I'm also opposed to gay marriage since its obvious there is a bigger agenda at play.

Just because I and others want to see people shut up and quit harassing gays about being sinful doesnt mean we aren't opposed to gay marriage.

It's like abortion, do we go to the mothers and tell them they are sinful little child murderers? No, but we do oppose abortion.
I'm against making correlation between state marriage and Church mystery.
Where do you think it originated?  The state of from God?
 
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