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Girl Would Rather Die than Deny Faith

Rastaman

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http://frmilovan.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/girl-would-rather-die-than-deny-faith/

Alina Milan (Elena by baptism) died on the 14th of March, 2011 [in Israel]. Alina was a fifth year student at Moscow State University’s Law School. This event might have passed unnoticed had it not been for certain details.

Alina Milan was 23 years old. Three years ago she was diagnosed with alveolar hydatid liver disease*: the sprouting of parasites in the hepatic vein and all the veins of the liver (she required an immediate liver transplant, which in Russia is not performed).
 

Achronos

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It's interesting that this was posted when the Bible Study last week we were talking about Church History and Emperors. One of the Emperors at the time, forgot the name it was before Constantine, gave out passes to those Christians who would stop their worship or otherwise be killed. Anyway the question this priest brought up for discussion was would you take the pass and renounce Christ or be killed for your faith.

Let's just say I was a bit shocked to hear the responses, where some said it was a difficult decision to make. How though? Eternal life versus a piece of paper that won't last at all?

Lord have mercy!
 

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:angel:

[quote author=source]Now we can only pray for her, however, a person who has abandoned life rather than abandoning the faith, is more likely to intercede on behalf of us, sinners, before the Lord.[/quote]
 

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Aposphet said:
It's interesting that this was posted when the Bible Study last week we were talking about Church History and Emperors. One of the Emperors at the time, forgot the name it was before Constantine, gave out passes to those Christians who would stop their worship or otherwise be killed. Anyway the question this priest brought up for discussion was would you take the pass and renounce Christ or be killed for your faith.

Let's just say I was a bit shocked to hear the responses, where some said it was a difficult decision to make. How though? Eternal life versus a piece of paper that won't last at all?

Lord have mercy!
How is it not a difficult decision to make? Seems that those who said it was were being honest with themselves and with the others of the group; others who might judge them for their honesty. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but it seems that you undervalue the step that this girl took - along with those of the Christian martyrs who refuses passes that would prevent themselves and their loved ones from torture and death. It's very easy to sit before a computor monitor and think that one would be brave enough to do anything for their faith. However, I am one of those who thinks it is a decision that one cannot make until faced with the consequenses. I wonder if I could be so courageous. I hope I would be, but still I wonder.
 

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Aposphet said:
It's interesting that this was posted when the Bible Study last week we were talking about Church History and Emperors. One of the Emperors at the time, forgot the name it was before Constantine, gave out passes to those Christians who would stop their worship or otherwise be killed. Anyway the question this priest brought up for discussion was would you take the pass and renounce Christ or be killed for your faith.

Let's just say I was a bit shocked to hear the responses, where some said it was a difficult decision to make. How though? Eternal life versus a piece of paper that won't last at all?

Lord have mercy!
Ahh, one of my many issues... I could never die a martyrs death. The whole concept is utterly incomprehensible to me. God will judge me if I lie about my beliefs to save my life? Ok, then I guess I'm lucky that I don't live in an area where I'll have to face that particular challenge, because I'd lie in a heartbeat...
 

deusveritasest

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Asteriktos said:
Aposphet said:
It's interesting that this was posted when the Bible Study last week we were talking about Church History and Emperors. One of the Emperors at the time, forgot the name it was before Constantine, gave out passes to those Christians who would stop their worship or otherwise be killed. Anyway the question this priest brought up for discussion was would you take the pass and renounce Christ or be killed for your faith.

Let's just say I was a bit shocked to hear the responses, where some said it was a difficult decision to make. How though? Eternal life versus a piece of paper that won't last at all?

Lord have mercy!
Ahh, one of my many issues... I could never die a martyrs death. The whole concept is utterly incomprehensible to me. God will judge me if I lie about my beliefs to save my life? Ok, then I guess I'm lucky that I don't live in an area where I'll have to face that particular challenge, because I'd lie in a heartbeat...
Why? Just because you are too afraid to muster the courage to do so? Or do you not even value the idea of you doing such?
 

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deusveritasest said:
Why? Just because you are too afraid to muster the courage to do so? Or do you not even value the idea of you doing such?
Both. I'm not prepared to die for such reasons, nor do I see any logical reason to do so. I can understand, say, firemen giving their lives, or policemen, while on duty. But a religious martyr? I don't get it. But that probably has something to do with my (tentative) perspective on God.
 

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Some things are worth dying for.

If you hold your Faith to be true, if you commit yourself to it, denying it...would be worse than death.  To live with the guilt...would be worse than not living at all.

I hope none of us actually have to be "tested" as to the degree of our commitment to the Faith, and to God.

 

deusveritasest

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Asteriktos said:
deusveritasest said:
Why? Just because you are too afraid to muster the courage to do so? Or do you not even value the idea of you doing such?
Both. I'm not prepared to die for such reasons, nor do I see any logical reason to do so. I can understand, say, firemen giving their lives, or policemen, while on duty. But a religious martyr? I don't get it. But that probably has something to do with my (tentative) perspective on God.
I'm sort of going through that myself. But I do know that when I was more strong in my belief that I definitely ideologically favored dying for the confession of the faith if it was required.
 

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I admit, sometimes I have considered it, and I have terrifying nightmares of being at gunpoint.

"God will forgive me, won't he?" I usually think, before collapsing on the ground in tears.

Yes. I believe that He will if I am truly repentant of my actions. However, is that something I can live with? I don't think so, but you'd be surprised what happens when our self-preservation kicks in and all we can think of is staying alive. I hope to never be at that point and theoretically, I hope that I will never deny Christ if put in that situation.

I'm not like the saints that set out to be martyrs...but God only know what will happen.

 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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In theory I would die a thousand times for Christ and the True Faith. But I tremble at what I might actually do in reality. I struggle to fast and pray, to control my tongue, to forgive my brother, and to love my neighbor. What makes me think that I would choose to offer my body to torture and martyrdom? I can only pray that Our Lord will grant me the mercy and grace to choose martyrdom if I am ever faced with it.

"Lord have mercy."


Selam
 

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
In theory I would die a thousand times for Christ and the True Faith. But I tremble at what I might actually do in reality. I struggle to fast and pray, to control my tongue, to forgive my brother, and to love my neighbor. What makes me think that I would choose to offer my body to torture and martyrdom? I can only pray that Our Lord will grant me the mercy and grace to choose martyrdom if I am ever faced with it.

"Lord have mercy."


Selam
Well said, Gebre. What you have written, speaks of coming to know and understand oneself in real terms; not those that are purely ideological; those of the arm-chair martyr. If the question is what would we do, my answer is still, "I don't know". 
 

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ummmmmm...this story sounds fishy. Read the comments on the blog right below the story. Most of the details don't add up.
 

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I want to say that 100% I would die for the Faith. And I can tell myself that a million times, though I've never been in that situation, which is the only reason I won't say I know I will. Though, with God's help, I hope that if I ever am in that situation, I will. I don't think dying would be that difficult.

What worries me is torture. Dying is "easy." It's over quickly. Being tortured is a whole other story.
 

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I highly doubt my ability to confess Christ and die for my faith. Of course I would like to think that I would, but each time I commit sin I am denying Christ for something I want to do. How much more would I jump to deny Him in order to avoid something I don't want to do?

I have much to learn from the holy martyrs.


 

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Marc1152 said:
ummmmmm...this story sounds fishy. Read the comments on the blog right below the story. Most of the details don't add up.
I agree.

Edit:  Here is an article that clears things up a bit.  The google translation is a little rough, but it is at least something.

http://translate.google.com/translate?ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsru.co.il%2Fisrael%2F22mar2011%2Falina_102.html&sl=ru&tl=en

Upon completion of this test, press secretary of the medical center "Surasski" Aviva Shemer said NEWSru.co.il amended as follows: "The cause of medical problems the patient was that she was a parasite in the liver. She had received no surgical and medical treatment, and on transplant out of the question. It was inoperable. If the situation required surgical intervention, it would be an operation, regardless of financial issues. A woman came to us in very bad condition. Within three months, doctors tried to cope with the parasite, but to no avail. I repeat once again - in such a situation transplants do not. It is this parasite and caused the death. She came to us with an infected liver, but we can not say when her body hit the parasite. So the information according to which the woman was not liver transplant due to lack of insurance, is not true. Our doctors have done everything possible to defeat the disease, but unfortunately, their efforts fell short. medical problems the girl a liver transplant would not have agreed. ""
Original text:
По завершении этой проверки пресс-секретарь медицинского центра "Сурасски" Авива Шемер сообщила редакции NEWSru.co.il следующее: "Причина медицинских проблем пациентки заключалась в том, что у нее в печени был паразит. Она получала не оперативное, а медикаментозное лечение, и о пересадке речи не шло. Она была неоперабельной. Если бы ситуация требовала оперативного вмешательства, ей была бы сделана операция вне зависимости от финансового вопроса. Женщина поступила к нам в крайне тяжелом состоянии. В течение трех месяцев врачи пытались справиться с паразитом, но безуспешно. Еще раз повторяю – в такой ситуации пересадок не делают. Именно этот паразит и стал причиной смерти. Она поступила к нам с зараженной печенью, но мы не можем сказать, когда в ее организм попал этот паразит. Так что информация, согласно которой женщине не была сделана пересадка печени из-за отсутствия страховки, не соответствует истине. Наши врачи сделали все возможное, чтобы победить болезнь, но, к сожалению, их усилий оказалось недостаточно. Медицинских проблем девушки пересадка печени бы не решила".
 

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KBN1 said:
Marc1152 said:
ummmmmm...this story sounds fishy. Read the comments on the blog right below the story. Most of the details don't add up.
I agree.
So basically it's like 95% of the Church's hagiography? So what's the problem?  :angel: ;)
 

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Well, whether she died due to lack of an operation that could have saved her life, or due to the fact that she sought help too late, and the operation which would have saved her life, would have been done regardless of the funds....is not important here.

The key point is not even that she died, or that she was infected by some creepy parasite.....

The fact that she would not sign a paper denouncing her Faith, is what is important - whether she lived or died.

 

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If we feel a certain level of confidence in response to the question of whether we would submit to martyrdom rather than betray Christ, we have a sobering and humbling example in the betrayal of Christ by St. Peter. 

Matthew 26:35,69-75

Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!" And so said all the disciples
-
Now Peter sat outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came to him, saying, "You also were with Jesus of Galilee." But he denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you are saying." And when he had gone out to the gateway, another girl saw him and said to those who were there, "This fellow also was with Jesus of Nazareth." But again he denied with an oath, "I do not know the Man!" And a little later those who stood by came up and said to Peter, "Surely you also are one of them, for your speech betrays you." Then he began to curse and swear, saying, "I do not know the Man!" Immediately a rooster crowed. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, "Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." So he went out and wept bitterly.
Though St. Peter failed when his faith was first tested, he repented and was given another chance to give his life for Christ, and the Lord accepted his repentance and his martyrdom.  By contrast, Judas chose an earthly and carnal life on earth over obedience to Christ, and thereby eternally forfeited both soul and body.  And what can man give in exchange for his soul? 

Truly those who choose this life over the life to come will suffer a miserable end, yet the path of Judas and the path of the holy martyrs is laid out in front of us all.  How will we have strength to choose Christ over this fleeting life, if daily we deny Christ in our hearts by catering to the passions and neglecting our souls?  Where will we find the zeal to face martyrdom, despising the things of this world, if daily we neglect eternal things for the sake of earthly things?  May God give us strength to put to death the flesh with its passions and desires, so that if we are faced with martyrdom for the sake of Christ, we may have the faith and courage to withstand this trial and gain an eternal inheritance. 
 

minasoliman

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If this is true, this could be a scandal that needs investigation.  Could the family might have met with certain health care professional who are being unethical in their treatment of the patients?  Well, this wasn't the first time a scandal concerning organ donation occurred there.

I think the article raises a lot of questions indeed.  Could it be perhaps she didn't have a donor card that gives others more priority than her?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8416443.stm
Israel is to become the first country to give donor card carriers a legal right to priority treatment if they should require an organ transplant.
 

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jah777 said:
May God give us strength to put to death the flesh with its passions and desires, so that if we are faced with martyrdom for the sake of Christ, we may have the faith and courage to withstand this trial and gain an eternal inheritance.   
Amen to that.
 

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deusveritasest said:
Asteriktos said:
Aposphet said:
Anyway the question this priest brought up for discussion was would you take the pass and renounce Christ or be killed for your faith.

Let's just say I was a bit shocked to hear the responses, where some said it was a difficult decision to make. How though? Eternal life versus a piece of paper that won't last at all?
Ahh, one of my many issues... I could never die a martyrs death. The whole concept is utterly incomprehensible to me. God will judge me if I lie about my beliefs to save my life? Ok, then I guess I'm lucky that I don't live in an area where I'll have to face that particular challenge, because I'd lie in a heartbeat...
Why? Just because you are too afraid to muster the courage to do so? Or do you not even value the idea of you doing such?
I don't think there is much to gain in debating this issue because it is so far removed from what we actually face in our day to day life.

If we were sitting around discussing this, I think my reaction would be along the lines of "lie in a heartbeat" because I've never come close to actually facing the threat.

Now if I were surrounded by and at the mercy of a group of Jihadists, I can only pray that I'd find the courage to defend my faith in the same manner as did Daniel Pearl.

But I think that this woman's decision would have even been more difficult than that.
 

Marc1152

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BoredMeeting said:
deusveritasest said:
Asteriktos said:
Aposphet said:
Anyway the question this priest brought up for discussion was would you take the pass and renounce Christ or be killed for your faith.

Let's just say I was a bit shocked to hear the responses, where some said it was a difficult decision to make. How though? Eternal life versus a piece of paper that won't last at all?
Ahh, one of my many issues... I could never die a martyrs death. The whole concept is utterly incomprehensible to me. God will judge me if I lie about my beliefs to save my life? Ok, then I guess I'm lucky that I don't live in an area where I'll have to face that particular challenge, because I'd lie in a heartbeat...
Why? Just because you are too afraid to muster the courage to do so? Or do you not even value the idea of you doing such?
I don't think there is much to gain in debating this issue because it is so far removed from what we actually face in our day to day life.

If we were sitting around discussing this, I think my reaction would be along the lines of "lie in a heartbeat" because I've never come close to actually facing the threat.

Now if I were surrounded by and at the mercy of a group of Jihadists, I can only pray that I'd find the courage to defend my faith in the same manner as did Daniel Pearl.

But I think that this woman's decision would have even been more difficult than that.
His wife is a Buddhist. Soka Gakkai. She lives around here. Many people in the area know her.
 

serb1389

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I have moved the rest of the conversation, which turned political as well as virulent in other ways (no longer just discussion), so I have moved it to Politics.  Feel free to discuss further in an "unmoderated" way there.  If you would like to post there but do not have access to the Politics board, please Private Message FrChris.  Here is the link to the politics board that I set up for this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35180.0.html

- Serb1389. General Fora Moderator 




 

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John of the North said:
http://frmilovan.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/girl-would-rather-die-than-deny-faith/

Alina Milan (Elena by baptism) died on the 14th of March, 2011 [in Israel]. Alina was a fifth year student at Moscow State University’s Law School. This event might have passed unnoticed had it not been for certain details.

Alina Milan was 23 years old. Three years ago she was diagnosed with alveolar hydatid liver disease*: the sprouting of parasites in the hepatic vein and all the veins of the liver (she required an immediate liver transplant, which in Russia is not performed).
I know this is an older thread, but I just wanted to point at that this girl is an inspiration to me and how I wish to live my life.
 
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