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GOARCH and Vaccines

Irish45

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“No. It instructs your body's cells to recognise that spike protein when it appears attached to the real virus (which can make you ill) instead of on its own as a vaccine component (which can't).”

That’s not what I’ve read, I believe you are incorrect on this.

“Also an irrelevant one. You're not part of the hierarchy responsible for making Church decisions.”

cool strawman, when did I claim that?

“None of the vaccines currently used claims to completely shield you from infection. They aim to decrease the chances of infection and transmission, and reduce the severity of disease, all of which they are doing pretty well.”

Well they can’t claim that now because it’s obviously not true. Back about eight months ago though they were claiming that. Please check out my link from natgeo about leaky vaccines and the dangers they create. Leaky vaccines create variants, that’s established fact. The current MRNA vaccines reduce hospitalization for about six months, and then the protection wanes which is why they’re requiring boosters now. When they introduced these vaccines they never said that you would need boosters because they honestly didn’t know because it hasn’t been studied long-term. Now they say you need boosters.

how do you know it’s safe and effective without long term studies?



“Also, subunit vaccines (like those available for polio, hep B, pertussis, tetanus, meningococcus, off the top of my head) work as well as whole virus ones, with the added advantage of being safer for immunocompromised people”

Another cool stawman. Which one of those are MRNA vaccines? I never made that claim against other vaccines. I’m just relaying what Pfizer’s own scientist said. I’m 100% pro vaccine, I’ve had everything from H1N1, to Anthrax, to Smallpox, and everything in between. While other vaccines may be as effective against only part of the virus, it’s clear that this Pfizer scientist does not think that the Pfizer vaccine is as strong as the antibodies created with natural immunity.
 

Irish45

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this study is incredibly misleading because it includes data all the way back to December 2020. Like I said the vaccine does protect you for the first six months but then the effects wane. All that data is mostly from people who were freshly vaccinated. I’d like to see the data broken down from the beginning of the summer to now for a more accurate measure of the vaccines effectiveness. I’m not trying to debate it can prevent hospitalization for the first 6 months. I know it does, but we don’t know what will happen to you in the long term because it’s never been studied. Also, of course more unvaccinated people we’re hospitalized in December 2020 all the way through to probably April 2021 because most of the people weren’t vaccinated yet. Plus, most of the data applies to covid pre delta variant. Those studies a little about the effectiveness of the vaccine against the Delta variant.

 

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I can’t edit my previous post, but I got a chance to read the study more fully and it does address my question about the time frame. They claim being unvaccinated doesn’t protect you as much. I need to dive deep into this study more to vet it thoroughly, but in wanted to correct my last post.

Actually, this study confirms that most of the hospitalizations after June or of the vaccinated. They say well of course it is because everyone’s vaccinated, but the vaccines are supposed to protect against hospitalization, but they don’t after 6 months. Actually note 5 states that the immunity starts to wane after 10 weeks. They never said in the beginning that immunity would wane because they didn’t know, it hasn’t been studied long term.
 
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FULK NERA

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Oh, I very well know what "antifascism" means coming from people like you, given it was one of the founding principles of the DDR tyranny over here. If you seriously think your dad fought for anything close to what is part of our current political agenda he will damn you from his grave.
How Christian of you to say such hateful things about my deceased father. And my America is not your East Germany: I see by your preference for fascism that your village never benefited from the denazification program my father’s generation implemented within the allies’ sphere of influence.
 

Katechon

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How Christian of you to say such hateful things about my deceased father. And my America is not your East Germany: I see by your preference for fascism that your village never benefited from the denazification program my father’s generation implemented within the allies’ sphere of influence.
I did not say a single bad thing about your father.
 

Arachne

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“No. It instructs your body's cells to recognise that spike protein when it appears attached to the real virus (which can make you ill) instead of on its own as a vaccine component (which can't).”

That’s not what I’ve read, I believe you are incorrect on this.
I can't know what you've read, but I'm correct on this.


“Also an irrelevant one. You're not part of the hierarchy responsible for making Church decisions.”

cool strawman, when did I claim that?
You didn't. So you agree that your opinion doesn't matter and you're just having a moan?

“None of the vaccines currently used claims to completely shield you from infection. They aim to decrease the chances of infection and transmission, and reduce the severity of disease, all of which they are doing pretty well.”

Well they can’t claim that now because it’s obviously not true. Back about eight months ago though they were claiming that. Please check out my link from natgeo about leaky vaccines and the dangers they create. Leaky vaccines create variants, that’s established fact. The current MRNA vaccines reduce hospitalization for about six months, and then the protection wanes which is why they’re requiring boosters now. When they introduced these vaccines they never said that you would need boosters because they honestly didn’t know because it hasn’t been studied long-term. Now they say you need boosters.
Back when the vaccines were released, the developers were hoping the results in the community would duplicate those in the lab. They didn't, but they're not that much off. Variants will happen because that's what viruses do, to optimise their propagation potential, and they need an available host pool (i.e. unvaccinated people) to get a hold on the community. A vaccine being 'leaky' doesn't matter much if there are not enough susceptible people around at any given time.

how do you know it’s safe and effective without long term studies?
The proof is in the pudding, that is, the billions of people who have received them over the last 10 months. Vaccines don't have long-term effects aside from resistance to disease.

“Also, subunit vaccines (like those available for polio, hep B, pertussis, tetanus, meningococcus, off the top of my head) work as well as whole virus ones, with the added advantage of being safer for immunocompromised people”

Another cool stawman. Which one of those are MRNA vaccines? I never made that claim against other vaccines. I’m just relaying what Pfizer’s own scientist said. I’m 100% pro vaccine, I’ve had everything from H1N1, to Anthrax, to Smallpox, and everything in between. While other vaccines may be as effective against only part of the virus, it’s clear that this Pfizer scientist does not think that the Pfizer vaccine is as strong as the antibodies created with natural immunity.
None of them is mRNA, but you were talking about subunit vs. whole virus vaccines, so leave those goal posts alone. Neutralising the virus as soon as the spike protein is detected does the job without the risk of triggering an immune system overload in the patient.[/QUOTE]
 

Arachne

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I can’t edit my previous post, but I got a chance to read the study more fully and it does address my question about the time frame. They claim being unvaccinated doesn’t protect you as much. I need to dive deep into this study more to vet it thoroughly, but in wanted to correct my last post.
It is misleading only if you are convinced that the effects of vaccination end at 6 months.

a) This is not the case. They seem to last longer than that, depending on the individual's immune system. And even when they start to wane, they do so gradually (probably in half-life progression), not like flipping a switch to off.

b) The antibodies generated by the vaccination are only the first part of the story. The memory cells that received the vaccine's instructions, on the other hand, last about 10 years, and each new exposure resets their timer. If exposed regularly, the instructions can last for a lifetime.

Actually, this study confirms that most of the hospitalizations after June or of the vaccinated. They say well of course it is because everyone’s vaccinated, but the vaccines are supposed to protect against hospitalization, but they don’t after 6 months. Actually note 5 states that the immunity starts to wane after 10 weeks. They never said in the beginning that immunity would wane because they didn’t know, it hasn’t been studied long term.
Actually, it doesn't confirm that at all. The study was published two months after the end of its observations, because putting it together takes time. In the meantime, we've been having high numbers of positive cases daily, mostly because everyone who goes to school or work gets tested twice a week, but the hospitalisation rates are not going up in proportion, and ICU admissions are actually falling (and the biggest spikes in cases are in the ages between 15-30, where there are still large unvaccinated populations).
 

Irish45

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I can't know what you've read, but I'm correct on this.
Technically yes you’re right on this, but I’ll explain what I mean more fully this week. To properly explain the nuisance will require some leg work. In short, it uses RNA to produce a foreign spike protein in your cells.


You didn't. So you agree that your opinion doesn't matter and you're just having a moan?
And your opinion matters? It’s a message forum meant to discuss topics, stop being so sensitive about others opinions


Back when the vaccines were released, the developers were hoping the results in the community would duplicate those in the lab. They didn't, but they're not that much off. Variants will happen because that's what viruses do, to optimise their propagation potential, and they need an available host pool (i.e. unvaccinated people) to get a hold on the community. A vaccine being 'leaky' doesn't matter much if there are not enough susceptible people around at any given time.
This is factually incorrect, again I point out that Nat Geo article and all other leaky vaccines in history where is the vaccinated great and variants.
So I’m supposed to take a vaccine that scientist are “hoping”works? Na I’ll wait for the long term data.
The problem with your argument is virtues evolve to become less deadly, unless they have a “protected” vector that allows deadly variants to spread. Mareks doesn’t have the Mutation rate of Covid, which is why the vaccines off long term protection of the chickens. The reason you have more deadly variants is because of the vaccinated. To take any other positions is to go against all available data on leaky vaccines. The worst part is the protection from the vaccine doesn’t last. So all your doing is trading 6 months protection for more deadly variants.
The proof is in the pudding, that is, the billions of people who have received them over the last 10 months. Vaccines don't have long-term effects aside from resistance to disease.
.
So you’re declaring it safe for long term use based on 10 months of data? That’s your proof? Why did Sweden Denmark in Ontario all stop the Moderna vaccine for teens then?

None of them is mRNA, but you were talking about subunit vs. whole virus vaccines, so leave those goal posts alone. Neutralising the virus as soon as the spike protein is detected does the job without the risk of triggering an immune system overload in the patient
No we weren’t talking about that, I was quoting One of the Pfizer scientist who worked on the vaccine. It’s cool if you think you know more than him that’s fine, I’m not gonna try to argue over that. But it’s pretty obvious that these vaccines do not provide the same immunity as natural immunity. And that’s the most important part about that study that you shared that I didn’t mention, they never mention how many of the unvaccinated deaths and hospitalizations were among people who hadn’t had Covid yet. That’s kind of an important data set that they’re missing. If you’re going to tell me natural immunity isn’t as good as the vaccine, then provide a study that at least mentions natural immunity. I questioned the entire data set because they didn’t include it.

I can tell by the way you’re being sassy that you’re very sensitive about this and I’m not trying to upset you or hurt your feelings. Relax, it’s a conversation for us both to learn and understand more fully, the sass is unnecessary and unhelpful.
 

Irish45

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It is misleading only if you are convinced that the effects of vaccination end at 6 months.

a) This is not the case. They seem to last longer than that, depending on the individual's immune system. And even when they start to wane, they do so gradually (probably in half-life progression), not like flipping a switch to off.

b) The antibodies generated by the vaccination are only the first part of the story. The memory cells that received the vaccine's instructions, on the other hand, last about 10 years, and each new exposure resets their timer. If exposed regularly, the instructions can last for a lifetime.
How do you know they last 10 years if they vaccines is less than a year old? The very study that you shared backs up what I said about the effectiveness wearing off after six months. It even mentions in the study that after June most of the people in the hospital were vaccinated. Please read the study that you shared, it backs me up.


Actually, it doesn't confirm that at all. The study was published two months after the end of its observations, because putting it together takes time. In the meantime, we've been having high numbers of positive cases daily, mostly because everyone who goes to school or work gets tested twice a week, but the hospitalisation rates are not going up in proportion, and ICU admissions are actually falling (and the biggest spikes in cases are in the ages between 15-30, where there are still large unvaccinated populations).
i’d read it again if I were you. How many of the hospitalized were previously infected with Covid? How many of the hospitalized kids were obese?
 
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Arachne

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The very study that you shared backs up what I said about the effectiveness wearing off after six months. It even mentions in the study that after June most of the people in the hospital were vaccinated. Please read the study that you shared.
Yes, because the vast majority of the population is now vaccinated. But there are a lot fewer people in hospital than there were at the beginning of all this, and even fewer end up ventilated. This only shows what we knew all along - that the vaccines are not perfect.

 

FULK NERA

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I did not say a single bad thing about your father.
Oh then you’re copacetic? What you wrote shows an ill temper and a readiness to resort to insult over your black and white perception of other people’s politics. ‘To attack fascism is Bolshevist’ - the words of one who actually defends fascism with the assertion that any opposition to it participated in antiChristian totalitarianism. I recall Germany was not a safe place for Orthodox Christians especially during the Reich.
 

Tzimis

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How Christian of you to say such hateful things about my deceased father. And my America is not your East Germany: I see by your preference for fascism that your village never benefited from the denazification program my father’s generation implemented within the allies’ sphere of influence.
My Grandfather also fought fascism on three fronts. Italy, Bulgaria and Germany.
Then he died fighting the communists. Thank God that regime was squashed out.
Thank your father for his service.
 

J Michael

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Here and now (well...sometimes...)
You can look at this for a start. It does mention how it was compiled.
Here's a kind of rebuttal to that article:
 

Ainnir

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Y’all, y’all. If we’re so worried about babies, let’s drown the pregnancy centers in resources and love instead of worrying over a shot.
 

Katechon

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Oh then you’re copacetic? What you wrote shows an ill temper and a readiness to resort to insult over your black and white perception of other people’s politics. ‘To attack fascism is Bolshevist’ - the words of one who actually defends fascism with the assertion that any opposition to it participated in antiChristian totalitarianism. I recall Germany was not a safe place for Orthodox Christians especially during the Reich.
You're building a strawman dude. Are you a Fed?
 

Arachne

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Irish45

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It should be noted that a whistle blower came out last night with emails from higher ups at Pfizer. They admit they used aborted fetuses to test the vaccine and they were actively trying to suppress that information from public view.
 

Arachne

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They admit they used the HEK203 fetal cell line in the testing phase of the vaccine, like many other vaccines and medications do. This is old news, repackaged for fresh outragemongering.
 

Irish45

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It’s old news that Pfizer actively tried to surpress that information?
Imagine defending a billion dollar pharmaceutical company for lying to consumers….
Yes, because the vast majority of the population is now vaccinated. But there are a lot fewer people in hospital than there were at the beginning of all this, and even fewer end up ventilated. This only shows what we knew all along - that the vaccines are not perfect.

 

Arachne

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It’s old news that Pfizer actively tried to surpress that information?
They didn't advertise the use of fetal cell lines in the testing phase because it would be spun into 'they're using aborted fetal tissue in the production!' (which is inaccurate), and they were right. If they had denied any use of fetal cell lines, you'd have a point. They didn't, and you don't.
 

Stinky

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They admit they used the HEK203 fetal cell line in the testing phase of the vaccine, like many other vaccines and medications do. This is old news, repackaged for fresh outragemongering.
This indeed is old news. Pfizer used fetal cell lines in testing after manufacturing their vaccine and it does not include fetal cells in the vaccine.
 

Irish45

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It’s old news that Pfizer tried to hide it from the public?
This indeed is old news. Pfizer used fetal cell lines in testing after manufacturing their vaccine and it does not include fetal cells in the vaccine.
 

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So you’re defending and making excuses for a Billion dollar corporation lying to is customers. Got it.

They didn't advertise the use of fetal cell lines in the testing phase because it would be spun into 'they're using aborted fetal tissue in the production!' (which is inaccurate), and they were right. If they had denied any use of fetal cell lines, you'd have a point. They didn't, and you don't.
 

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Arachne

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So you’re defending and making excuses for a Billion dollar corporation lying to is customers. Got it.
No lies detected. Bioethics agencies were aware of the testing phase conditions all along, and called it acceptable.

Blow the whistle till you're blue in the face. The answer to the question 'Does the Pfizer vaccine contain aborted fetal tissue?' is still 'No'.
 

Irish45

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They didn't advertise the use of fetal cell lines in the testing phase because it would be spun into 'they're using aborted fetal tissue in the production!' (which is inaccurate), and they were right. If they had denied any use of fetal cell lines, you'd have a point. They didn't, and you don't.
Saying there is no lies doesn’t change the fact they were trying to surpress the info. Good for you for trying the “noble lie” excuse though. New information is hard to deal with when you’ve already made up your mind.
 

Arachne

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Saying there is no lies doesn’t change the fact they were trying to surpress the info. Good for you for trying the “noble lie” excuse though. New information is hard to deal with when you’ve already made up your mind.
Nice projection, bro. Let me know when any new information does turn up.
 

Irish45

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Nice projection, bro. Let me know when any new information does turn up.
I’ll tell you what, when the long term studies come out in 9 years, if I’m wrong, I’ll buy you a hardcover version of the Orthodox Study Bible.

Unless you’re privy to secrete long term studies that prove this vaccine is safe and effective. Until then, I’ll stick with my Natural immunity.
 

Arachne

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I’ll tell you what, when the long term studies come out in 9 years, if I’m wrong, I’ll buy you a hardcover version of the Orthodox Study Bible.

Unless you’re privy to secrete long term studies that prove this vaccine is safe and effective. Until then, I’ll stick with my Natural immunity.
Nice turnaround, too. 8/10 for technique.
 

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Nice projection, bro. Let me know when any new information does turn up.
I don’t even know what that means. What I do know is you approve of pressuring people into taking a vaccine that hasn’t been studied long-term. It’s immoral in my opinion. Enjoy your day.
 

Arachne

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I don’t even know what that means. What I do know is you disapprove of pressuring people into taking a vaccine that hasn’t been studied long-term misinformation and pseudoscience. It’s immoral threatening my prejudices in my opinion. Enjoy your day.
Fixed that for you.
 

Arachne

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wait are you saying you have long term studies?
I'm saying that all your objections so far are based on misinterpretations of science, whether through ignorance or intention.
 

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The long-term studies are in progress. The monitoring stage for any vaccine is 10-15 years.

What do you expect from long-term studies, exactly? Vaccines are eliminated from the system within days; immediate adverse reactions aside, the only long-term effect they can have is resistance to disease. Now we're just watching to see how long that resistance will last, which we can never know in advance. If you expected people to start sprouting extra limbs or dropping like flies, you're more likely to be disappointed with each passing day.
 

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The long-term studies are in progress. The monitoring stage for any vaccine is 10-15 years.

What do you expect from long-term studies, exactly? Vaccines are eliminated from the system within days; immediate adverse reactions aside, the only long-term effect they can have is resistance to disease. Now we're just watching to see how long that resistance will last, which we can never know in advance. If you expected people to start sprouting extra limbs or dropping like flies, you're more likely to be disappointed with each passing day.
Is this a series question? I want to know they’re safe. Right now, no person can claim they’re safe in the long term. Promoting these vaccines is immoral. The difference between me and you is I hope I’m wrong. There’s a reason why countries around the world are taking these off the market for teens, If it’s safe in 10 years, maybe I’ll get one, but probably not, I’ve had Covid, it wasn’t as bad as the flu for me. I’m naturally immune and there’s not a single argument on why I should get a vaccine. Some say the vaccine is to protect others but as you’ve already admitted above, the vaccine doesn’t stop you from spreading it. There’s literally no reason for me to get the vaccine, and that goes for anyone else that had Covid already. The only exception I could think of is if somebody has a compromised immune system, but I think they would be foolish to get this vaccine considering we’re still in the experimental phase as you admit it above they’re still collecting data. You wouldn’t need to study the long-term effects if it was proven that these were safe, but it’s not proven and you know it, and you admitted it above.
 
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Irish45

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the only long-term effect they can have is resistance to disease.
And you call my arguments Pseudoscience? lol the CEOs of Pfizer, Monderna and J&J thank you for their yachts. If These vaccines are safe, then those three companies would step up and accept liability. Who’s liable if a person is injured from the vaccine?
 

Arachne

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Is this a series question?
No, but it's a serious one.

I want to know they’re safe. Right now, no person can claim they’re safe in the long term.
Safe from what? Be specific and detailed.

No one ever claimed any vaccine (or drug, for that matter) is 100% safe, that's why people are advised to consult with their GPs and there will always be some who cannot get them. The crucial difference is that the risk is calculated and massively outweighed by the benefits.

There’s a reason why countries around the world are taking these off the market for teens,
And what's that reason? Because even more countries around the world are going ahead with vaccinating teens.

If it’s safe in 10 years, maybe I’ll get one, but probably not,
In 10 years it will be impossible to prove that the X, Y or Z ailment developed because of the vaccine or would not have developed without it. Just say you won't do it because nobody's gonna tell you what to do, and be done with it.

Some say the vaccine is to protect others but as you’ve already admitted above, the vaccine doesn’t stop you from spreading it.
It more than halves the risk of doing so, though, and I'll take less than half over the whole hog, ta very muchly.

You're demanding levels of safety from this particular vaccine way beyond anything else in life. Hundreds, if not thousands, of people die on the roads every day, but we still go out and walk, ride or drive without as much as thinking today might be our turn. We don't ban peanuts, or any other foodstuff, because some people are allergic to them. We go out and do stupid risky things literally for no reason but the thrill. But suddenly getting vaccinated is not safe enough? Not impressed.
 
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