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GOARCH and Vaccines

Opus118

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Link to the full study

From the same 2020 article:

Vaccines with a high theoretical risk of inducing pathologic ADE or ERD include inactivated viral vaccines, which may contain non-neutralizing antigen targets and/or the S protein in non-neutralizing conformations, providing a multitude of non-protective targets for antibodies that could drive additional inflammation via the well-described mechanisms observed for other respiratory pathogens.

.... vaccines that elicit neutralizing antibodies against the S protein reliably protect animals from SARS-CoV challenge without evidence of enhancement of infection or disease. These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE. For example, subunit vaccines that can elicit S-specific neutralizing antibodies should present lower ADE risks (especially against S stabilized in the prefusion conformation, to reduce the presentation of non-neutralizing epitopes). These modern immunogen design approaches should reduce potential immunopathology associated with non-neutralizing antibodies.
 

Irish45

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From the same 2020 article:

Vaccines with a high theoretical risk of inducing pathologic ADE or ERD include inactivated viral vaccines, which may contain non-neutralizing antigen targets and/or the S protein in non-neutralizing conformations, providing a multitude of non-protective targets for antibodies that could drive additional inflammation via the well-described mechanisms observed for other respiratory pathogens.

.... vaccines that elicit neutralizing antibodies against the S protein reliably protect animals from SARS-CoV challenge without evidence of enhancement of infection or disease. These data suggest that human immunization strategies for SARS-CoV-2 that elicit high neutralizing antibody titres have a high chance of success with minimal risk of ADE. For example, subunit vaccines that can elicit S-specific neutralizing antibodies should present lower ADE risks (especially against S stabilized in the prefusion conformation, to reduce the presentation of non-neutralizing epitopes). These modern immunogen design approaches should reduce potential immunopathology associated with non-neutralizing antibodies.
I read it thanks. It’s still possible though and cases are spiking to near all time highs in highly vaxed places like Vermont. Like I said above, it’s worth knowing about. It’s not like the Pfizer backed media would let you know it’s a possibility.
 

Christos3

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Outcomes from taking/not taking vax in my small circle of friends and family:
Me and wife J&J: One day of tiredness. So far so good.
Two teens: Pfizer, and J&J. No issues.
MIL, BIL: Moderna (2), Pfizer (1): My BIL who had the pfizer contracted Covid 7 months after shot. His symptoms were minor and recovered quickly.
Out of three siblings: (Pfizer)- No problems.
No Vaxed (Contacted Covid- 10 days to recover used Hydroxyclorequine and Ivermectin),
Non-Vax (Contacted Covid- in a state where everyone is still wearing masks and highly vaxed. Recovered using hydorxyclorequine and Ivermectin). With Delta, my friends who were not vaccinated got Covid. Those that did not have doctor's that prescribed Hydroxy, Ivermectin or regeneron ended up at the hospital and on oxygen.
1 friend at the age of 36, no health issues, died from Covid. He waited too long to seek a doctor after testing positive.
My priest is not vaccinated and thanks to God, has not had Covid.

The only conspiracy theory I have is that China and or Russia has used technology and social media to create vax hesitancy with false information. The reason: President Trump bought the supply of vaccines, and if we (the USA) were the first to have our country highly vaccinated, we would get our economy back up and running before an other countries. Good for USA, bad for China/Russia.
 

Irish45

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Outcomes from taking/not taking vax in my small circle of friends and family:
Me and wife J&J: One day of tiredness. So far so good.
Two teens: Pfizer, and J&J. No issues.
MIL, BIL: Moderna (2), Pfizer (1): My BIL who had the pfizer contracted Covid 7 months after shot. His symptoms were minor and recovered quickly.
Out of three siblings: (Pfizer)- No problems.
No Vaxed (Contacted Covid- 10 days to recover used Hydroxyclorequine and Ivermectin),
Non-Vax (Contacted Covid- in a state where everyone is still wearing masks and highly vaxed. Recovered using hydorxyclorequine and Ivermectin). With Delta, my friends who were not vaccinated got Covid. Those that did not have doctor's that prescribed Hydroxy, Ivermectin or regeneron ended up at the hospital and on oxygen.
1 friend at the age of 36, no health issues, died from Covid. He waited too long to seek a doctor after testing positive.
My priest is not vaccinated and thanks to God, has not had Covid.

The only conspiracy theory I have is that China and or Russia has used technology and social media to create vax hesitancy with false information. The reason: President Trump bought the supply of vaccines, and if we (the USA) were the first to have our country highly vaccinated, we would get our economy back up and running before an other countries. Good for USA, bad for China/Russia.
Speaking of China…





 

Arachne

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VAERS data is unverified because it’s voluntary to report and they don’t usually send people out to verify but data. . That’s not what I was referring to.
Claims of serious adverse reactions can be verifiable through hospital admission records, however. Hence the 'met definition' and 'pending review' slots.

Also, this was rather awkward.

 

Irish45

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Claims of serious adverse reactions can be verifiable through hospital admission records, however. Hence the 'met definition' and 'pending review' slots.
Again, that has nothing to do with what I was referring too. It’s the fact that 1200 number is likely much higher.

Claims of serious adverse reactions can be verifiable through hospital admission records, however. Hence the 'met definition' and 'pending review' slots.

Also, this was rather awkward.

Why?
 

J Michael

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Irish45

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This is also rather awkward.



 

Arachne

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Again, that has nothing to do with what I was referring too. It’s the fact that 1200 number is likely much higher.
Again, it doesn't matter if it's 1200 or 12000. What is important is not how often the thing gets reported but how often the thing is actually confirmed to have happened.

Yes, why? They miscalculated. They acknowledged their mistake and took the appropriate action. It's called scientific integrity, I believe.
25x off is not just a miscalculation. Not saying it was deliberate, but it was a bit of monumental incompetence, which reinforced unfounded fears and gave the numbskulls fodder, however brief, that they shouldn't have received in the first place.
 

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Again, it doesn't matter if it's 1200 or 12000. What is important is not how often the thing gets reported but how often the thing is actually confirmed to have happened.
You don’t get it, and I’m not wasting my time explaining again.
 

J Michael

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Again, it doesn't matter if it's 1200 or 12000. What is important is not how often the thing gets reported but how often the thing is actually confirmed to have happened.
But if it's under-reported where do you go to confirm the all cases that have actually happened? If only, say, 8% of cases are reported, only up to that many cases will be investigated and possibly confirmed. What about the other 92%?


25x off is not just a miscalculation. Not saying it was deliberate, but it was a bit of monumental incompetence, which reinforced unfounded fears and gave the numbskulls fodder, however brief, that they shouldn't have received in the first place.
Yes, they admitted the size of their mistake and apologized and withdrew the paper. Even our revered (some even go so far as to worship them) scientists are capable of "monumental incompetence". At least these guys caught it, acknowledged it, and fixed it.
 
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Arachne

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But if it's under-reported where do you go to confirm the all cases that have actually happened? If only, say, 8% of cases are reported, only up to that many cases will be investigated and possibly confirmed. What about the other 92%?
Hospital. Admission. Records.

If you only have 100 confirmed cases, it doesn't matter if there were 120 or 5000 reports. Reports of serious adverse reactions that don't translate to received medical care are by definition bogus.
 

J Michael

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Hospital. Admission. Records.

If you only have 100 confirmed cases, it doesn't matter if there were 120 or 5000 reports. Reports of serious adverse reactions that don't translate to received medical care are by definition bogus.
Are all cases of myocarditis admitted to hospital? Serious question.

Another serious question: You probably don't know for the U.S. but who collects, collates, scrutinizes all hospital admission records for any given condition? Are there data bases for those kinds of things that the public can access?
 

Arachne

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Are all cases of myocarditis admitted to hospital? Serious question.
Well, if it's such a serious side effect, they should. Or at least get properly diagnosed (i.e. verified) by a doctor.. If it's something you can get over taking two aspirin and sleeping it off, what's the big deal and all the flailing?

Another serious question: You probably don't know for the U.S. but who collects, collates, scrutinizes all hospital admission records for any given condition? Are there data bases for those kinds of things that the public can access?
I know the Yellow Cards filed over here are followed through, but I don't know about other countries. Need to have some kind of central organisation to get a remotely accurate idea.
 

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Arachne

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Speaking of Aspirin…

Aspirin is a blood thinner, and blood clots are one of the most common and serious Covid symptoms. Unfortunately, like all other blood thinners, it has potentially serious side effects for the stomach, and should not be taken without a doctor's supervision.
 

Irish45

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Aspirin is a blood thinner, and blood clots are one of the most common and serious Covid symptoms. Unfortunately, like all other blood thinners, it has potentially serious side effects for the stomach, and should not be taken without a doctor's supervision.
In this post you seem to imply Asprin is risky and should only be taken under a doctors supervision while in a previous post you made a serious medical condition seem like it’s no big deal and it can be fixed with a couple of Aspirin. The inconsistency seems weird to me.

If it's something you can get over taking two aspirin and sleeping it off, what's the big deal and all the flailing?
 

Arachne

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In this post you seem to imply Asprin is risky and should only be taken under a doctors supervision while in a previous post you made a serious medical condition seem like it’s no big deal and it can be fixed with a couple of Aspirin. The inconsistency seems weird to me.
There's no inconsistency, just some ignorance on your part regarding short- and long-term treatment dosage.

 

Ainnir

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According to the article you posted, covid19 is one of the causes for myocarditis.
It recommends getting vaccinated.
And?
 

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Irish is insinuating that the vaccines are the leading cause of Myocarditis.
I never made that claim. I only claim that they are related and we don’t know by how much yet. IMO, It’s worth pausing the vaccines while we look at the data.
 

Ainnir

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Irish is insinuating that the vaccines are the leading cause of Myocarditis.
I fail to see what that has to do with my link. It seemed there was disagreement or confusion over what myocarditis is, so I posted symptom/diagnosis information. 🤷‍♀️
 

Tzimis

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I fail to see what that has to do with my link. It seemed there was disagreement or confusion over what myocarditis is, so I posted symptom/diagnosis information. 🤷‍♀️
It was just easier to quote you instead of going to google.
 

J Michael

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Here and now (well...sometimes...)
Dr. Robert Malone, "inventor" of mRNA technology on the current Covid "vaccines":

For anyone in doubt about his credentials or qualifications to talk about this, here is a link to his full C.V.:
 

Tzimis

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This speaks for itself.

This might be true, but who control's more than 3/4s of the worlds wealth? To me it seems that the elderly are in a battle with the young over inheritance. Selfish motives. I personally side with the elderly. Not because I'm one, but because I don't care about money enough to forgo my loved ones.
So if someone tells you to not get vaccinated. Make sure that they know you have zero in the bank and own no assets.
 

Arachne

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Dr. Robert Malone, "inventor" of mRNA technology on the current Covid "vaccines":

For anyone in doubt about his credentials or qualifications to talk about this, here is a link to his full C.V.:
The quotation marks are right, because Dr Malone claims to be the inventor of mRNA technology, but the strains of research that led to the vaccines are much more the work of Katalin Kariko and Derrick Rossi. Of course he would badmouth the vaccines - his interest lies in famotidine as treatment, not any form of prevention, and he salty because he backed the wrong horse.
 

J Michael

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The quotation marks are right, because Dr Malone claims to be the inventor of mRNA technology, but the strains of research that led to the vaccines are much more the work of Katalin Kariko and Derrick Rossi. Of course he would badmouth the vaccines - his interest lies in famotidine as treatment, not any form of prevention, and he salty because he backed the wrong horse.
So, are you saying that Dr. Malone is wrong in what he says about the "vaccines"? If so, how?
 

Opus118

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I would like to start this incrementally. Do you agree that vaccines only function after you are infected with the virus? If not have your read that vaccines create some some sort of mysterious aura around you that prevent infection (I haven't). Are we agreed that vaccines cannot prevent infections? Are you agreed that the prevention of infections is not relevant?

In the graph of your post, look at the number of points above and below the slope that is shown. If you remove 2 data points the slope will go into the opposite direction. There are such a thing as outliers in all datasets.
 

J Michael

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Please forgive me, Opus118, but I do not understand what you're getting at.

Also, I'm not sure I understand your question, " Are you agreed that the prevention of infections is not relevant? " Did you mean, "Do you agree that the prevention of infection is relevant?"? If not, the question still doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it's my age or the time of day.....
 

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He’s saying the point of the vaccine wasn’t to prevent infection, and therefore people getting sick post vaccine is an irrelevant point. Do you agree with this?
 

Tzimis

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He’s saying the point of the vaccine wasn’t to prevent infection, and therefore people getting sick post vaccine is an irrelevant point. Do you agree with this?
If you are still alive to answer than, yeah.
 

J Michael

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He’s saying the point of the vaccine wasn’t to prevent infection, and therefore people getting sick post vaccine is an irrelevant point. Do you agree with this?
Thank you for your translation :)!

Infection="Invasion of the body by pathogenic microorganisms and the reaction of the tissues to their presence and to the toxins generated by them; often applied to the presence of microorganisms within the tissues whether or not this results in detectable pathologic effects." (Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary, 24th edition, W.B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia, PA., 1965).

There is really nothing that can prevent infection. Now, whether that infection results in illness and/or death is a whole other matter. There are a number of things that can prevent illness/death from infection or moderate the severity of illness should it occur, one of which may be vaccines, also depending on a number of factors. There is nothing that can prevent illness and/or death from infection in all cases all the time.

Getting sick post vaccine is not an irrelevant point.
 

J Michael

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He's no scientist (gasp!). He's just a lowly writer and reporter (gasp!) Some people don't even like what he has to say (shock!) He's even been booted off of the twit world (badge of honor?). And....he's been vaccinated and isn't even one of those evil, dangerous "anti-vaxxers" (horror!). But he has some interesting things to say sometimes.

 

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Interesting reads. Full disclosure, I didn’t verify the Twitter data so it could be wrong. Non the less I thought it was interesting enough to post. I pray that The Lord provides us all with wisdom on this topic, no matter who ends up being right (or even if none of us are).



 

Opus118

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Please forgive me, Opus118, but I do not understand what you're getting at.

Also, I'm not sure I understand your question, " Are you agreed that the prevention of infections is not relevant? " Did you mean, "Do you agree that the prevention of infection is relevant?"? If not, the question still doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it's my age or the time of day.....
I was reacting to the prior eugyppious link you posted. Vaccines do not prevent infection. They can only function after infection. On the other hand, like wearing a mask, you are unlikely to disperse as much virus once infected because you have the antibodies to combat your infection early on.

In regard to Dr. Malone, his accomplishment was incremental - protecting the RNA from degradation. I also have contributions in this story close to its beginning, but my contributions were also incremental.

This is a worthwhile article in regard to Dr. Malone:

I can never tell what is available to the general public. Let me know if you cannot read it without an expensive subscription.
 
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