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Great fear with meeting between Pope Francis and EP....

Nephi

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Mor Ephrem said:
ialmisry said:
ialmisry said:
This may be of interest, or at least interesting:
Concerning the ’Historic Meeting‘ Between Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope Francis (May, 2014)
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/about-the-apostolic-pilgrimage-patriarch-bartholomew-and-pope-francis.aspx
I want to support it, but then I read this:

Read the amazing letter to Pope Francis (April, 2014) by Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus (Church of Greece).
SMH. 
It looks like you and I are of like mind.
 

SolEX01

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Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
Fallen bishops are the lightposts to hell - at least according to St. John Climacus....
 

ialmisry

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Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
 

Mor Ephrem

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SolEX01 said:
Fallen bishops are the lightposts to hell - at least according to St. John Climacus....
Funny, I've heard this attributed to St John Chrysostom.  

St John Cassian also said something about bishops which, when I read it, made me smile:

WHEREFORE this is an old maxim of the Fathers that is still current,--though I cannot produce it without shame on my own part, since I could not avoid my own sister, nor escape the hands of the bishop,--viz., that a monk ought by all means to fly from women and bishops. For neither of them will allow him who has once been joined in close intercourse any longer to care for the quiet of his cell, or to continue with pure eyes in divine contemplation through his insight into holy things.

Institutes, Book XI, Chapter XVIII
When I read it, I emailed it to a hieromonk who needed cheering up.  I love Johns, they are great!  :)
 

Andrew21091

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ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
 

ialmisry

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Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
One of his rallied Faithful. Who are you?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
Nestorius was a Patriarch of Constantinople.  So? 
 

Andrew21091

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ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
One of his rallied Faithful. Who are you?
Didn't know you were that old.
 

TheTrisagion

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Everyone wants to be St. Mark of Ephesus. No one ever wants to be St. Anthony.
 

Andrew21091

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Mor Ephrem said:
Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
Nestorius was a Patriarch of Constantinople.  So? 
But who condemned him? I suppose my whole point is that we need to be careful to judge bishops. Obviously, we can criticize their actions, but assuming that we know better is a delusion from the evil one. You can say bishops are light posts to hell all you want, but following our own wills is even more damning.

If a patriarch falls into schism, then it is up to a council of bishops to condemn him. That is why an Ecumenical Council was called to deal with Nestorius, right?
 

Andrew21091

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Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
One of his rallied Faithful. Who are you?
Didn't know you were that old.
All joking aside. I am nobody really. I'm only a lay person (a janitor at that!) and have no place to tell bishops what to do. I also don't have a place to compare myself to any Saint.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Andrew21091 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Nestorius was a Patriarch of Constantinople.  So? 
But who condemned him? I suppose my whole point is that we need to be careful to judge bishops.
Definitely.

Obviously, we can criticize their actions, but assuming that we know better is a delusion from the evil one.
As a general principle, I might agree.  But when the thing about which we know better is really a fairly simple matter, it's not delusion, it's baptismal responsibility.  For instance, if the Ecumenical Patriarch received Communion at a Mass celebrated by Pope Francis, I'm sure you'd be able to find twelve bishops who could spin that in some theologically plausible manner, but it's really quite simple and people ought to protest that.  Some things are simple.  And it is my experience that when bishops are challenged on such things, they are only too eager to jump for the "I'm a bishop, who are you?" card rather than scaling down their predilection for complexity.  

If a patriarch falls into schism, then it is up to a council of bishops to condemn him. That is why an Ecumenical Council was called to deal with Nestorius, right?
An ecumenical council is not just a matter of bishops.  A bishop without a flock is, properly speaking, no bishop.  So yes, bishops meet in synod, bishops make judgements, bishops enforce discipline, etc.  But they alone are not the Church.  At times, "the people" have rejected what "the bishops" accepted, and history vindicated "the people".
 

Asteriktos

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Mor Ephrem said:
SolEX01 said:
Fallen bishops are the lightposts to hell - at least according to St. John Climacus....
Funny, I've heard this attributed to St John Chrysostom.  

St John Cassian also said something about bishops which, when I read it, made me smile:

WHEREFORE this is an old maxim of the Fathers that is still current,--though I cannot produce it without shame on my own part, since I could not avoid my own sister, nor escape the hands of the bishop,--viz., that a monk ought by all means to fly from women and bishops. For neither of them will allow him who has once been joined in close intercourse any longer to care for the quiet of his cell, or to continue with pure eyes in divine contemplation through his insight into holy things.

Institutes, Book XI, Chapter XVIII
When I read it, I emailed it to a hieromonk who needed cheering up.  I love Johns, they are great!  :)
I am not familiar with the lightposts quote, but St. John Chrysostom does say in his 3rd Homily on Acts that: "I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish."

Andrew21091 said:
But who condemned him? I suppose my whole point is that we need to be careful to judge bishops. Obviously, we can criticize their actions, but assuming that we know better is a delusion from the evil one. You can say bishops are light posts to hell all you want, but following our own wills is even more damning.

If a patriarch falls into schism, then it is up to a council of bishops to condemn him. That is why an Ecumenical Council was called to deal with Nestorius, right?
+1. And I should have used something more like this above than what I did...
 

ialmisry

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Andrew21091 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
Nestorius was a Patriarch of Constantinople.  So? 
But who condemned him? I suppose my whole point is that we need to be careful to judge bishops. Obviously, we can criticize their actions, but assuming that we know better is a delusion from the evil one. You can say bishops are light posts to hell all you want, but following our own wills is even more damning.

If a patriarch falls into schism, then it is up to a council of bishops to condemn him. That is why an Ecumenical Council was called to deal with Nestorius, right?
Actually Pope St. Cyril, the hero of that Council, gave the credit to a layman Eusebius (who later became the bishop of Doryleum) for exposing Nestorius (he performed a similar service in exposing Eutyches).
 

Asteriktos

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People complaining on a message board sounds more similar (though not exactly the same) to St. Gregory complaining about people arguing theology and dogmatic disputes in the marketplace. "It is not for everyone" to delve into such things. Some of us are better off avoiding certain topics, for a variety of reasons.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Asteriktos said:
People complaining on a message board sounds more similar (though not exactly the same) to St. Gregory complaining about people arguing theology and dogmatic disputes in the marketplace. "It is not for everyone" to delve into such things. Some of us are better off avoiding certain topics, for a variety of reasons.
Do you have the citation handy?  I've been looking for that.
 

Asteriktos

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Oration 27, and 27.2 for the part about the marketplace. If memory serves he also makes a similar complaint somewhere in his poetry, though I don't recall where exactly.
 

Aristocles

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ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
One of his rallied Faithful. Who are you?
That's it. Isa, out of control with his venom. After over ten years here, adios folks. I must shake the DIRT from my feet and move on.

 

Wandile

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Αριστοκλής said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
ialmisry said:
Andrew21091 said:
I often wonder why we even have bishops at all. We all know more about the Faith than they do.

All this paranoia about bishops. No faith in Christ or the Church at all.
God helps those who help themselves.
And especially those who help Orthodox bishops-like the Faithful who rallied to Met. St. Mark of Ephesus, and turned their back on "EP" Gregory Mammas.
St. Mark was a bishop. Who are you?
One of his rallied Faithful. Who are you?
That's it. Isa, out of control with his venom. After over ten years here, adios folks. I must shake the DIRT from my feet and move on.
LOL
 

LBK

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Αριστοκλής said:
That's it. Isa, out of control with his venom. After over ten years here, adios folks. I must shake the DIRT from my feet and move on.
It's not the first time you've said you're leaving.
 

primuspilus

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The EP wont join Rome any time soon so this is all just an intellectual exercise. However, I will say this; if the EP joined Rome, you'd be able to hear the collective laughter from Mt. Athos anywhere on Earth.

PP
 

Antonis

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LBK said:
Αριστοκλής said:
That's it. Isa, out of control with his venom. After over ten years here, adios folks. I must shake the DIRT from my feet and move on.
It's not the first time you've said you're leaving.
I feel bad for anyone who can blame Aristokles for it, it means they've grown used to such hate.
 

TheTrisagion

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Antonis said:
LBK said:
Αριστοκλής said:
That's it. Isa, out of control with his venom. After over ten years here, adios folks. I must shake the DIRT from my feet and move on.
It's not the first time you've said you're leaving.
I feel bad for anyone who can blame Aristokles for it, it means they've grown used to such hate.
Or we've learned to just disengage and ignore the nonsense that surrounds certain peoples posting styles.
 

podkarpatska

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primuspilus said:
The EP wont join Rome any time soon so this is all just an intellectual exercise. However, I will say this; if the EP joined Rome, you'd be able to hear the collective laughter from Mt. Athos anywhere on Earth.

PP
Calling what passes here for "debate" or "discussion"  an "intellectual exercise" is an insult to all intellectuals, pseudo or otherwise alike!  :)
 

TheTrisagion

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While we are discussing our great fears, I am greatly concerned that the RC Church will convert all the Martians before we have a chance at them, thereby dooming us to be a mere terrestrial Church while the Latins become a celestial Church.

Discuss.
 

ialmisry

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Antonis said:
LBK said:
Αριστοκλής said:
That's it. Isa, out of control with his venom. After over ten years here, adios folks. I must shake the DIRT from my feet and move on.
It's not the first time you've said you're leaving.
I feel bad for anyone who can blame Aristokles for it, it means they've grown used to such hate.
Do people hate the truth so much?
 

ialmisry

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podkarpatska said:
primuspilus said:
The EP wont join Rome any time soon so this is all just an intellectual exercise. However, I will say this; if the EP joined Rome, you'd be able to hear the collective laughter from Mt. Athos anywhere on Earth.

PP
Calling what passes here for "debate" or "discussion"  an "intellectual exercise" is an insult to all intellectuals, pseudo or otherwise alike!  :)
LOL.  You've not been near Academia much or lately.
 

ialmisry

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TheTrisagion said:
While we are discussing our great fears, I am greatly concerned that the RC Church will convert all the Martians before we have a chance at them, thereby dooming us to be a mere terrestrial Church while the Latins become a celestial Church.

Discuss.
Haven't the Mormons done that already.

And we're already a super-celestial Church.
 

podkarpatska

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TheTrisagion said:
While we are discussing our great fears, I am greatly concerned that the RC Church will convert all the Martians before we have a chance at them, thereby dooming us to be a mere terrestrial Church while the Latins become a celestial Church.

Discuss.
In a secret document found by History Channel investigators who were given access to Vatican Archives, it appears that Copernicus and Galileo recently got together late in 2013 with Pope Alexander VI and persuaded Pope Francis to concede Uranus to the Orthodox.
 

LBK

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podkarpatska said:
In a secret document found by History Channel investigators who were given access to Vatican Archives, it appears that Copernicus and Galileo recently got together late in 2013 with Pope Alexander VI and persuaded Pope Francis to concede Uranus to the Orthodox.
Dare I say this makes far more sense than the OP.  ;)
 

ialmisry

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ialmisry said:
Fabio Leite said:
Yesterday I was talking to a former Orthodox who studies in the local Ukrainian Greek-Catholic seminary.

I was informed they actively teach there is no need for conversion because RC and the Orthodox Church are already one, that they actually never split, it's just political games among the hierarchy, that it does not matter where one is baptized or takes communion or gets married. The person does not even think he is "former Orthodox", as he was taught there simply isn't any need for "conversion" from one church to the other. Obviously, in a place where the RC is established for 500 years, with all the structure, support, social acceptance and status it can provide, it means that insisting on your own church can only be an ethnical thing. If they are the same, why insist on a "greek" or "syrian-lebanese" church if it is Christ that matters? And, he also told me that they are instructed to get as many people as possible to church, which, under the terms above, just "happens to be" the RC.

That, my friends, is the concrete effects of the "ecumenical" dialogues in real practice, down in the ground, not in theory, ideals, hopes, commitments, essays, articles, "deep" theological thinking, dreams or the high halls of international meetings and congresses. What starts as "fraternity" and "love" ends in petty word plays that lead people to leave their faith without even noticing what is happening. It happened with the whole Antiochian community in the Northern state of Pará here. It is happening all over the place in Latin America. It *will* happen anywhere where the "ecumenical" dialogue is accepted in its current ambiguous terms, it's just a matter of stages of development. And for all those who are son non-chalant and so self-assured of the "non-consequence" of the ecumenical abuses: *this* is the effect. And just because it's not happening in *your* area now, be sure the "dialogues" just have to continue for this kind of thing to eventually happen there.

Sad.
So, as we see, this is where all this "Sister Church" talk leads, especially one the "sister" who wants to be Mother is holding her chalice out.
 

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All this bickering and "im afraid it was the Mormons, yes the Mormons was the correct answer..."
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=123_1190395606&comments=1
 

primuspilus

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Irish45 said:
All this bickering and "im afraid it was the Mormons, yes the Mormons was the correct answer..."
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=123_1190395606&comments=1
I still like South Park. At least they equally make fun of everyone, and put it in the context of the story. Unlike Family Guy.

PP
 

Irish45

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I fully agree.  I do not watch show much anymore, but I feel the show keeps it's credibility because everyone is fair game when it comes to jokes.  Family Guy is a show I despise, and their Anti-Christian jokes seem more bigoted.

primuspilus said:
Irish45 said:
All this bickering and "im afraid it was the Mormons, yes the Mormons was the correct answer..."
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=123_1190395606&comments=1
I still like South Park. At least they equally make fun of everyone, and put it in the context of the story. Unlike Family Guy.

PP
 
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