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Guadalupe: Valid / Canonical Icon?

Dominika

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This Sunday, Antiochian Patriarchate

 

Iconodule

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Was this in Syria?
 

Dominika

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Iconodule said:
Was this in Syria?
No, Lebanon, in patriarchal monastery Balamand.
 

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Dominika said:
Iconodule said:
Was this in Syria?
No, Lebanon, in patriarchal monastery Balamand.
I already burn a Guadalupe candle at my writing desk. Now I know I'm not alone in our patriarchate.
 

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Dominika said:
This Sunday, Antiochian Patriarchate

If they considered this image in the photo a Holy Icon, why is it sitting on the floor? I would think the men in black would know better.

If one wants to venerate the Guadalupe image I don’t see real harm as long as it leads you to Christ and not Maryolatry. The real point of the apparition was to lead people to Christ - not to specifically make them Roman Catholic.
 

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I'm always confused as to what "Maryolatry" in an Orthodox context would really look like and how to avoid it. It seems like Orthodoxy has more long prayers, titles, and icons of her than even the RCC does.

Then again, I'm coming from outside of either and I could be wrong.
 

biro

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Volnutt said:
I'm always confused as to what "Maryolatry" in an Orthodox context would really look like and how to avoid it. It seems like Orthodoxy has more long prayers, titles, and icons of her than even the RCC does.
Good point. People who come from some Protestant backgrounds don't like any hint of the Virgin Mary at all. They tend to turn down even legitimate honor of her, despite the fact that the Gospel says, "Every generation shall call me blessed."
 

Lepanto

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Can you please stop annexing our apparitions of the Dei Genetrix?
Don´t you have apparitions of your own?
Outrageous!
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Dominika said:
It's used in the iconostasis of the Orthodox cathedral in Mexico:



Personally - I have no problems with it, since:
1. It's an event that has brought lots of people to Christ (and the hadn't any possiblity to know and embrace Orthodoxy then);
2. It shows that Orthodoxy can be compatible with Mexican history and heritage.
I agree. And let's not forget that Orthodox tradition didn't magically happen over night. No reason why this icon could not in time become part of Orthodox tradition. As you say, the profound spiritual impact it has had on the Mexican people is nothing to easily dismiss.

Selam
 

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biro said:
Volnutt said:
I'm always confused as to what "Maryolatry" in an Orthodox context would really look like and how to avoid it. It seems like Orthodoxy has more long prayers, titles, and icons of her than even the RCC does.
Good point. People who come from some Protestant backgrounds don't like any hint of the Virgin Mary at all. They tend to turn down even legitimate honor of her, despite the fact that the Gospel says, "Every generation shall call me blessed."
Stereotype much?

Roman Catholics worship Mary. 
 

Dominika

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CarolS said:
If they considered this image in the photo a Holy Icon, why is it sitting on the floor? I would think the men in black would know better.
If that's a moment of giving icon as a gifit or the icon "waits" to be gifted, it's not a problem; I've seen such situations in Poland. And then people/parish gifted by such icon look for the proper place for it and put it with high veneration.
 

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I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but the mandorla is troubling considering it is intended to represent divinity. This doesn't disqualify the Guadalupe image but it isn't a canonical feature, I believe.
 

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Briven said:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but the mandorla is troubling considering it is intended to represent divinity. This doesn't disqualify the Guadalupe image but it isn't a canonical feature, I believe.
If it is truly an icon not made with hands it doesn't have to follow Byzantine rules for painting.
 

Alpha60

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Gebre Menfes Kidus said:
Dominika said:
It's used in the iconostasis of the Orthodox cathedral in Mexico:



Personally - I have no problems with it, since:
1. It's an event that has brought lots of people to Christ (and the hadn't any possiblity to know and embrace Orthodoxy then);
2. It shows that Orthodoxy can be compatible with Mexican history and heritage.
I agree. And let's not forget that Orthodox tradition didn't magically happen over night. No reason why this icon could not in time become part of Orthodox tradition. As you say, the profound spiritual impact it has had on the Mexican people is nothing to easily dismiss.

Selam
Indeed so.  One should also consider the extreme brutality of the pagan religions, particularly the Aztec religion, which this icon led to the demise of; the pagan religions of Mexico and Central America practiced human sacrifice on a scale unmatched elsewhere.
 

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Briven said:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but the mandorla is troubling considering it is intended to represent divinity. This doesn't disqualify the Guadalupe image but it isn't a canonical feature, I believe.
Yeah, but with the Theotokos it's kind of ambiguous since she did have God Himself in her womb, isn't it? She's the true Burning Bush, the true Ark of the Covenant, wider than the heavens, etc.

So, couldn't one say that in this case the mandorla is an indication, not of her divinity, but of the Divinity that she birthed and nurtured?
 

biro

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Lepanto said:
Can you please stop annexing our apparitions of the Dei Genetrix?
Don´t you have apparitions of your own?
Outrageous!
The Orthodox don't seem to have many apparitions of their own.
 

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biro said:
Lepanto said:
Can you please stop annexing our apparitions of the Dei Genetrix?
Don´t you have apparitions of your own?
Outrageous!
The Orthodox don't seem to have many apparitions of their own.
Eh. There's quite a few, they are just mostly icons through which God did His work. That's an apparition, in a way.
 

biro

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Briven said:
biro said:
Lepanto said:
Can you please stop annexing our apparitions of the Dei Genetrix?
Don´t you have apparitions of your own?
Outrageous!
The Orthodox don't seem to have many apparitions of their own.
Eh. There's quite a few, they are just mostly icons through which God did His work. That's an apparition, in a way.
I don't think so.
 

biro

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Wandile said:
Iconodule said:
I didn’t say anything about Protestantism but now that you mention it, Rome did that too. So that’s three major ecclesial poopstorms Rome fomented.
LOL like how the early church caused Arianism?

This logical is so flawed.
Yeah. Starting with Martin Luther, all the Protestants willingly broke off on their own.

Only in this other universe called OC.net do people think otherwise.
 

Dominika

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Briven said:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but the mandorla is troubling considering it is intended to represent divinity. This doesn't disqualify the Guadalupe image but it isn't a canonical feature, I believe.
There are some icons of the Theotokos that were created in Eastern Orthodox tradition and have the mandorla.
 

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Dominika said:
Briven said:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but the mandorla is troubling considering it is intended to represent divinity. This doesn't disqualify the Guadalupe image but it isn't a canonical feature, I believe.
There are some icons of the Theotokos that were created in Eastern Orthodox tradition and have the mandorla.
Yes, I know. I actually use one fairly often (it's on the side of an icon of St. Nicholas). I think it's still not an ideal situation, though it doesn't invalidate anything.
 

Mor Ephrem

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biro said:
Wandile said:
Iconodule said:
I didn’t say anything about Protestantism but now that you mention it, Rome did that too. So that’s three major ecclesial poopstorms Rome fomented.
LOL like how the early church caused Arianism?

This logical is so flawed.
Yeah. Starting with Martin Luther, all the Protestants willingly broke off on their own.

Only in this other universe called OC.net do people think otherwise.
You regularly exhibit an inability and/or unwillingness to understand points made by others unless they line up with your own ignorance.  And I don’t intend “ignorance” as a pejorative: you really don’t know the things you think you know.  That’s not a fault unless you remain there willingly.
 

Volnutt

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biro said:
Briven said:
biro said:
Lepanto said:
Can you please stop annexing our apparitions of the Dei Genetrix?
Don´t you have apparitions of your own?
Outrageous!
The Orthodox don't seem to have many apparitions of their own.
Eh. There's quite a few, they are just mostly icons through which God did His work. That's an apparition, in a way.
I don't think so.
Just off the top of my head- Blachernae, Zeitoun, the Kazan icon, Port Arthur, Sitka, at least two at Mount Athos, that one with the footprint in the stone (which was in Romania, I think), that one to the Greek WWII soldiers, the wonderworking Syriac icon, the Kursk Root, that Russian one with the black background, Częstochowa.


In response to Lepanto, I don't think this is stealing because it seems mostly like Mexican and Guatemalan Orthodox are doing it of their own volition. I thought the most important thing about Guadalupe is that it's a sign of God's love for those peoples, not that it's specifically RC.
 

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biro said:
Wandile said:
Iconodule said:
I didn’t say anything about Protestantism but now that you mention it, Rome did that too. So that’s three major ecclesial poopstorms Rome fomented.
LOL like how the early church caused Arianism?

This logical is so flawed.
Yeah. Starting with Martin Luther, all the Protestants willingly broke off on their own.

Only in this other universe called OC.net do people think otherwise.
But to be Protestant, even if merely born and indoctrinated into it, is to be in the lineage of thought and belief that Luther (and Wycliffe, the Hussites, the Waldensians, et al) started, which was specifically a reaction to Catholicism. I think that's Iconodule's point.
 

Mor Ephrem

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CarolS said:
Dominika said:
This Sunday, Antiochian Patriarchate

If they considered this image in the photo a Holy Icon, why is it sitting on the floor? I would think the men in black would know better.
https://www.facebook.com/ByzantionAndOrthodoxFaith/photos/a.538943326198827/1879381238821689/?type=3

Holy Icons on the floor.
 

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Briven said:
hecma925 said:
In the Iconostasis, I believe.
The one of St. John the Theologian is on a small rack, raised up from the floor.

Or is there one I'm not seeing?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
The Guadalupe image is raised up from the floor by its frame.
True.  And it's not face down or doesn't have something stacked in it.  Antiochian Patriarchate gets an "A".
 
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Dominika said:
This Sunday, Antiochian Patriarchate

That particular photo is not included among the photos taken during the liturgy: https://www.antiochpatriarchate.org/en/gallery/1777/

Can you provide the link to that photo?

I'm curious to know the reason for these two copies of Our Lady of Guadalupe being there. Where they being presented to the Patriarch?
 

Dominika

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Remember thath Arabs post much more pics and even info on FB ;) that's the gallery: https://www.facebook.com/pg/Antiochpatriarchate.org/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1396424677127908

Yeah, the Antiochian delegation from Latin America gave these icons to the patriarchal monastery in Balamand it's written in the album I've linked.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
The Guadalupe image is raised up from the floor by its frame.
In the link you provided of the cave, where is that?  Is it just a shrine or is the liturgy celebrated there?
 

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Alpha60 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
The Guadalupe image is raised up from the floor by its frame.
In the link you provided of the cave, where is that?  Is it just a shrine or is the liturgy celebrated there?
I think I see an iconostasis on the left in the FB link, but I'm not sure.
But here.
 
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Amazing reports on Guatemala:

https://www.svots.edu/headlines/seminarian-jesse-brandow-gives-first-hand-account-explosion-orthodox-christianity-guatemal

http://journeytoorthodoxy.com/2016/04/orthodoxy-in-ixcan-guatemala-a-story-of-resilient-faith/

I know one of the missionaries in Guatemala. He has lived there with the people there for over 6 years. He tells us the conversions are unbelievable. The people have embraced the faith whole heartily. May God have the glory.
 

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About 25 years ago ~ I was on my way to Watsonville, California ~ I stopped at Pinto Lake ~ there is a grove of trees ~ hard by the Lake ~ there were people ~ many in the grove ~ going and coming ~ talk about the sign on the tree ~ I went into the grove ~there was a gathering of maybe close to a hundred ~ up on one tree ~ where a branch had broken or been cut off was a figure ~ yes it did look like the Guadalupe Lady ~ people were catching the light of the sun in mirrors and lighting up the the figure in the core of the wound left by the branch breaking away ~ I'd say it was about 8" or 10" long and it did look like the Lady ```
 

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Ainnir said:
Alpha60 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
The Guadalupe image is raised up from the floor by its frame.
In the link you provided of the cave, where is that?  Is it just a shrine or is the liturgy celebrated there?
I think I see an iconostasis on the left in the FB link, but I'm not sure.
But here.
There is an iconostasis; on one level I feel sorry for the priest who has to serve in there due to its extremely cramped nature, on another level I suspect its thrilling for a pious priest to be able to liturgize in that cave, but it is very beautiful.  What I do not see is a Guadalupe icon, so I have no idea what Mor is talking about.

Mor, can you be Mor specific?
 
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