H1N1 and the Eucharist

[Aristobolus]

Peruse this article by the Toledo Blade; it gives some outstanding quotes by two Orthodox priests regarding taking communion in the midst of the concerns over the H1N1 virus.  Contrast these with the phobic reactions of other traditions.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091031/NEWS10/910310342

 

[Alveus Lacuna]

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Jibrail Almuhajir]

'He said priests in the Orthodox Church serve Communion with a spoon and have been doing so for well over 1,000 years.
"We believe it's the true body and blood of Jesus Christ, and no illness or virus would pass through it," he said.'

Amen.  Amen.  Amen.

 

[HandmaidenofGod]

IMHO, to fear germs during communion is to deny that it is the body and blood of Christ.

 

[Asteriktos]

Out of curiosity, if someone slipped in some poison, would you still take it? That one is even sorta in the Bible: "and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them" (Mark 16:18)

 

[Jibrail Almuhajir]

Out of curiosity, if someone slipped in some poison, would you still take it? That one is even sorta in the Bible: "and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them" (Mark 16:18)

Will your next question be, "How many angels can tap dance on the head of a pin?" 

 

[Asteriktos]

I think it's a valid question. If you think you can take the eucharist without getting a potentially fatal flu virus, would you go one step further and drink some poison without fear of dying?

 

[Asteriktos]

Some might think I'm being flippant, but I'm asking because I think lives could be on the line. I really cannot fathom someone sick with the flu taking the eucharist because of some idea that everyone will be mystically protected by God. So I want to see how far you would push this mystical protection, and hopefully make people think about what they believe and where to draw the line.

 

[Alveus Lacuna]

I would honestly just not partake if I was sick with a virus that was contagious.  That being said, I do not believe that any harm can come from the Eucharist.  Being terminally ill is another thing, but I probably wouldn't go to church if I had a deadly disease that was easily transmitted.  The Eucharist might be undefiled, but it's not like the air in the church is incorruptible.  You can still get people sick just by standing next to them.

 

[Paisius]

Some might think I'm being flippant, but I'm asking because I think lives could be on the line. I really cannot fathom someone sick with the flu taking the eucharist because of some idea that everyone will be mystically protected by God. So I want to see how far you would push this mystical protection, and hopefully make people think about what they believe and where to draw the line.

Reminds me of a story about St John of San Francisco............


The following incident, told by O. Skopichenko and confirmed by many from Shanghai, well illustrates his daring, unshakable faith in Christ. "A Mrs. Menshikova was bitten by a mad dog. The injections against rabies she either refused to take or took carelessly.... And then she came down with this terrible disease. Bishop John found out about it and came to the dying woman. He gave her Holy Communion, but just then she began having one of the fits of this disease; she began to foam at the mouth, and at the same time she spit out the Holy Gifts which she had just received. The Holy Sacrament cannot be thrown out. And Vladika picked up and put in his mouth the Holy Gifts vomited by the sick woman. Those who were with him exclaimed: 'Vladika, what are you doing! Rabies is terribly contagious! 'But Vladika peacefully answered: 'Nothing will happen; these are the Holy Gifts.' And indeed nothing did happen."



Holy Father John, pray for us.

 

[Ortho_cat]

If one were sick with any type of flu I would hope that they would not go to Church.  The priest can bring them communion for the infirm.

 

[Ortho_cat]

Some might think I'm being flippant, but I'm asking because I think lives could be on the line. I really cannot fathom someone sick with the flu taking the eucharist because of some idea that everyone will be mystically protected by God. So I want to see how far you would push this mystical protection, and hopefully make people think about what they believe and where to draw the line.

Reminds me of a story about St John of San Francisco............


The following incident, told by O. Skopichenko and confirmed by many from Shanghai, well illustrates his daring, unshakable faith in Christ. "A Mrs. Menshikova was bitten by a mad dog. The injections against rabies she either refused to take or took carelessly.... And then she came down with this terrible disease. Bishop John found out about it and came to the dying woman. He gave her Holy Communion, but just then she began having one of the fits of this disease; she began to foam at the mouth, and at the same time she spit out the Holy Gifts which she had just received. The Holy Sacrament cannot be thrown out. And Vladika picked up and put in his mouth the Holy Gifts vomited by the sick woman. Those who were with him exclaimed: 'Vladika, what are you doing! Rabies is terribly contagious! 'But Vladika peacefully answered: 'Nothing will happen; these are the Holy Gifts.' And indeed nothing did happen."



Holy Father John, pray for us.

Now that's faith!

 

[Rastaman]

I think it's a valid question. If you think you can take the eucharist without getting a potentially fatal flu virus, would you go one step further and drink some poison without fear of dying?

Yes.

 

[Asteriktos]

Reminds me of a story about St John of San Francisco

Your story of St. John is perhaps not unlike a story about St. George...

"They gave him poison. However, St. George made the sign of the cross and didn’t die. Diocletian had St. George’s hands tied behind his back and then made him drink poison. Nevertheless, St. George used his head to make the sign of the cross and survived."

But I'm glad to see that some are cautious. And thankfully, presumably, wouldn't take the poison either.

 

[Paisius]

Reminds me of a story about St John of San Francisco

Your story of St. John is perhaps not unlike a story about St. George...

"They gave him poison. However, St. George made the sign of the cross and didn’t die. Diocletian had St. George’s hands tied behind his back and then made him drink poison. Nevertheless, St. George used his head to make the sign of the cross and survived."

But I'm glad to see that some are cautious. And thankfully, presumably, wouldn't take the poison either.

I would like to think I would have the same faith St John did if I were in his position. I do know one thing, I am not afraid of contracting H1N1 or any other illness from the Eucharist. I am a recovering alcoholic and I receive without any problems. Most medical professionals and addiction specialist would certainly advise against it. I have no problems because I know no harm can come from it.


Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[Jibrail Almuhajir]

If I had the flu, or any type of sickness that was transmittable by air, I wouldn't go to church simply because my coughing could get someone sick.  But, if I knew someone else was sick, would I commune?  Absolutely.  This has happened at least twice that I know of and I didn't so much as get the sniffles.  Would I commune if I knew poison had somehow gotten in the chalice?  Again, yes, absolutely.  There is no doubt in my mind that the Body and Blood of our Most Precious Savior is the only medicine that is incorruptible.  

 

[John Larocque]

The response of the London, Ontario Catholic archdiocese is incredible. The ordinary method of communion reception (which was all but banned after Vatican II) is communion on the tongue - and now thanks to health concerns is now banned again... It's now communion on the hand or nothing. In rare cases hand sanitizer has been used immediately (by the priest) after reception on the tongue by recalcitrant traditionalists... who aren't happy. I was in London over the weekend and was updated on the goings on there. This is a repeat of the SARS temporary ban of communion on the tongue in both Toronto and London.

Catholic communion wafers break apart easily, and it's not hard to imagine why so many complaints have emerged over the very real phenomenon of sacred particles not being consumed, but being left on the hand, or the ground. This was all but unknown in the days of altar rails and cloths and altar boys/deacons with patens. But anything goes now.

The Thomistic explanation that only the consecrated hands of the priest should touch the Host doesn't accord with the ancient witnesses such as St. Cyril of Jerusalem's catechism or Origen, where it's clear that the normal reception in that day was in the hands of the laity.

But what the post Vatican II liturgical reformers forgot was that both Origen and St. Cyril both cautioned against the possibility of the sacred particles being left over. The eucharist was to be treated as a great treasure, for which no particle should be lost. The Liturgical reformers also left out that back in those days, they weren't using unleavened wafers either. I strongly suspect that moving from leavened to unleavened in the West was accompanied by the now-banned practice of communion on the tongue. Which is to say... the current practice of using unleavened bread combined with communion in the hand... is really a 20th century innovation.

[ Hand-shaking is currently banned in Toronto and London during the sign of peace... ]

 

[bogdan]

My priest talked about this last week after a local person died of H1N1-related complications and people were concerned. When you commune, you consume nothing but Christ, so it's safe. If anyone is at risk it's the priest, who consumes whatever remains afterwards, regardless of what ends up in the chalice. How often do priests get sick, doing that every single week?  He had a person at a former parish who had AIDS and communed regularly, and nothing ever happened.

I think the article in the original post is good. We have become so insulated from the gritty reality of life that we are afraid of everything - sickness, aging, death, etc. We can't hide from them. When these things inevitably happen, they should remind us of our mortality and spur us to keep doing better.

 

[HandmaidenofGod]

Out of curiosity, if someone slipped in some poison, would you still take it? That one is even sorta in the Bible: "and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them" (Mark 16:18)

As the communion hymn goes, "Receive the body of Christ, taste the gift of immortality. Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia."

I believe the elements are transformed by the Holy Spirit. Every good and perfect gift is from above, and would do me no harm. Therefore, I believe that regardless of whatever germs or "poison" there may be.

There is a story of St. Nicholas Planas, being an illiterate, uneducated man, accidentally poured an entire bottle of arsenic in the chalice, served it, received it, and did not die.

 

[Fr. George]

Some might think I'm being flippant, but I'm asking because I think lives could be on the line. I really cannot fathom someone sick with the flu taking the eucharist because of some idea that everyone will be mystically protected by God. So I want to see how far you would push this mystical protection, and hopefully make people think about what they believe and where to draw the line. 

The danger, IMO, is not in someone taking the Eucharist while they know they are sick - usually in those cases they don't come to Church in the first place.  The danger would be in people taking it when they have the "bug" but aren't presenting symptoms.  However, I do not believe that any illness or disease will be transmitted through the Eucharist.  Besides my theological presuppositions leading to that point, there is also the experience of watching my father commune hundreds of people each week, then consume the remainder of the gifts, and be as close as one can be to 100% healthy for my entire life (he is only affected by seasonal allergies - otherwise, he gets a cold/flu maybe once every 5-7 years, which was remarkable in a house with 5 kids).

 

[ytterbiumanalyst]

I think it's a valid question. If you think you can take the eucharist without getting a potentially fatal flu virus, would you go one step further and drink some poison without fear of dying?

If it's the Body and Blood of Jesus, then it can't be poison, no matter what's in it.

 

[observer]

I read the story of blessing food has its physical benefits. A woman wanted to poison her husband. She put poison in his favorite soup.  However the priest suddenly arrived.  The man invited the priest to supper.  The woman was terrified because the poisoned soup was already on the table.  The priest blessed the food and all ate except the woman.  Not being able to conceal her evil intentions, she confessed to the priest what she had done, ( Archimandrite Amvrosij, Moscow).

 

[greekischristian]

The difficulty of transmitting the virus on a metal spoon, combined with the alcohol content of the wine probably make the risk minimal, sitting next to the person in the pew is probably far more risky. But if you're in an area that has a high infection rate, whether you're worried about contracting it from communion or not, GET VACCINATED.

 

[admiralnick]

The difficulty of transmitting the virus on a metal spoon, combined with the alcohol content of the wine probably make the risk minimal, sitting next to the person in the pew is probably far more risky. But if you're in an area that has a high infection rate, whether you're worried about contracting it from communion or not, GET VACCINATED.

I gotta agree with GIC on this one. The chance of catching a virus from communion without regard to what is presented is negated by the physical properties of the substances involved. In regards to the poison, I would still receive it even knowing there was poison.

-Nick

 

[mersch]

yes, I would.

 

[scamandrius]

Silly Orthodox.  Don't you know that health is far more important than your arcane and ridiculous Sunday ritual of the Eucharist? 

 

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Silly Orthodox.  Don't you know that health is far more important than your arcane and ridiculous Sunday ritual of the Eucharist? 

Of course I do. My health is the #1 reason why I take the Eucharist.

 

[stanley123]

There is a Roman Catholic nun, Sister Teresa Forcades, who is also a medical doctor, who recommends against taking the swine flu vaccine. However, I believe that some of her views are controversial.
http://vimeo.com/7298827

 

[Asteriktos]

Some of the responses in this thread are enough to make me sympathise with and understand the misguided definitions of faith by certain contemporary writers, such as Richard Dawkins.  It sort of reminds me of the poll done which found that if science disproved a certain religious belief, that the majority of people would still cling to their religious belief rather than admit that they were wrong (Article). :-\

 

[scamandrius]

^Nice retort. ;D

 

[Fr. John D-Alton]

As a priest who gives communion regularly with people coughing and spluttering around, I can say that I hardly ever get sick, because the Body and Blood of our Lord transforms whatever is in the chalice into holy life-giving medicine. This is Orthodoxy. If you really believe in the change then there is nothing to fear. But I understand lay people having doubts. Remember that our Lord changed water into wine. It is beyond science. Science cannot prove many things and is extremely limited for explaining reality (I did science at uni). Ultimately Orthodoxy requires a step of faith. This is not blind faith but faith based on real evidence of consistent results!
in Christ,
Fr John D'Alton

 

[Fr. George]

The difficulty of transmitting the virus on a metal spoon, combined with the alcohol content of the wine probably make the risk minimal, sitting next to the person in the pew is probably far more risky. But if you're in an area that has a high infection rate, whether you're worried about contracting it from communion or not, GET VACCINATED.

I don't truly understand why people cannot see that medication, vaccinations, etc. fit into our faith's picture of using God-given talents to help humankind.

 

[Papist]

Hey, you know I would think that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. The H1N1 virus does not become the Body of Christ. So how is a person protected from contracting H1N1 when communing? Is it impossible for germs to get on Jesus. I don't think so.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

Yes, but, didn't Jesus heal the sick?

Remember the woman who was healed simply by touching the hem of Christ's garment?

I agree you can get sick by standing in church next to a sick person, you can get sick by kissing an icon, which may have been kissed by a sick person, etc.

However, I am 100% convinced that one cannot get sick from ingesting germs while partaking of Holy Communion.
It's a ridiculous notion.

But, those who doubt....probably shouldn't approach the Chalice in the first place...because they do not believe it is the True Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[monkvasyl]

Shortly after 9/11, Xerox was making us to be fitted for masks to safeguard us against anthrax.  This would have meant I would have to shave off my beard.  As a monk I refused, and I told my Manager, which really spaced him out), "If the Good Lord wills me to live, I will live without the need of a mask, but if the Lord is calling me, then all the masks in the world would not save me.  I will put my faith 100% in my God."  Needless to say, I never had to shave off my beard and wear a mask.

 

[Papist]

However, I am 100% convinced that one cannot get sick from ingesting germs while partaking of Holy Communion.
It's a ridiculous notion.

But, those who doubt....probably shouldn't approach the Chalice in the first place...because they do not believe it is the True Body and Blood of Christ.

First, we don't have evidence that Jesus healed every sick person that he came in contact with. If that were the case every person who has cancer and recieves the Eucharist would be healed.
Just because I believe that a person can get sick when recieving the Eucharist does not mean that I do not 100% believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

I'm not saying He did heal every person.  Many were left ill for a purpose.

However, He did tell the woman that her "faith" had healed her.

I am certainly not judging anyone.  Everyone has the right to fear for their safety, and should not be forced in to a situation they find uncomfortable.

I am simply adding my opinion to the discussion.

I find this whole "epidemic" unnerving.  There were disinfectant wipes all over our church last Sunday.  I get it.  I think they ARE needed...and yet it was almost unreal to see them there.

 

[Papist]

I'm not saying He did heal every person.  Many were left ill for a purpose.

However, He did tell the woman that her "faith" had healed her.

I am certainly not judging anyone.  Everyone has the right to fear for their safety, and should not be forced in to a situation they find uncomfortable.

I am simply adding my opinion to the discussion.

I find this whole "epidemic" unnerving.  There were disinfectant wipes all over our church last Sunday.  I get it.  I think they ARE needed...and yet it was almost unreal to see them there.

But I think its silly of you to suggest that one who thinks that they can get sick when receiving the Eucharist does not really believe in the real presence.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

Please forgive my silliness.

 

[katherineofdixie]

Met. Alexios of the Metropolis of Atlanta (GOA) sent a letter to all the Priests and Faithful on this subject, and related the story of when he was a deacon serving the Divine Liturgy in a TB sanatarium every week. Neither he nor the priests who consumed the Gifts afterward ever contracted TB.