Has anyone heard anything about Met.Jonah resigning? / Met Jonah Resigns / Holy Synod Releases Official Statement about Met. Jonah's Resignation

JamesRottnek

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Michał Kalina said:
Shanghaiski said:
Michał Kalina said:
Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way?
Indeed.

Marc1152 said:
News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost.

That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople...
And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem.
 

FormerReformer

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JamesRottnek said:
Michał Kalina said:
Shanghaiski said:
Michał Kalina said:
Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way?
Indeed.

Marc1152 said:
News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost.

That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople...
And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem.
More like an Ephesian Church now independent of Ephesus.... Now Antioch, on the other hand....
 

JamesRottnek

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FormerReformer said:
JamesRottnek said:
Michał Kalina said:
Shanghaiski said:
Michał Kalina said:
Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way?
Indeed.

Marc1152 said:
News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost.

That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople...
And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem.
More like an Ephesian Church now independent of Ephesus.... Now Antioch, on the other hand....
Ah, but where did the Church start?
 

FormerReformer

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JamesRottnek said:
FormerReformer said:
JamesRottnek said:
Michał Kalina said:
Shanghaiski said:
Michał Kalina said:
Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way?
Indeed.

Marc1152 said:
News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost.

That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople...
And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem.
More like an Ephesian Church now independent of Ephesus.... Now Antioch, on the other hand....
Ah, but where did the Church start?
Well, let's see.... Sts Peter and Paul came to Antioch from.... Ohhhhhh I see what you're getting at.
 

Kerdy

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Marc1152 said:
From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church  :)

Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me.
 

Kerdy

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I personally do not care what the politics are about or why people are getting feelings hurt.  Everyone, in every area, needs to understand what the Church is for and stop whatever it is they are doing to cause problems, regardless of who that person is or what position they fill.  I like the OCA and I hope they get things under control.  America NEEDS them!  Russia NEEDS the Russian Orthodox Church.  Greece NEEDS the Greek Orthodox Church and so on.  No one on this earth owns any part of any church.  It all belongs to God.  So, my advice to all of them is get back to work and stop playing around.  People need you!

(Disclaimer - I realize there is a lot behind the scenes I know little about, especially after reading this thread, but a little common sense goes a long way and it sounds like some is needed in respect to this thread topic.  It’s a messy situation and I am glad I don’t have to sort it all out.)
 

choy

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Michał Kalina said:
orthonorm said:
Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.
To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.
Why not.  I think the Orthodox are in denial, but they need the Pope as a Pope.  Well, not totally.  First, not as someone with universal ordinary jurisdiction.  Perhaps just authority over the Patriarchs and other heads of autocephalous Churches.  And also drop the "this is Divinely Instituted" line.  But otherwise they do need someone to keep everyone else in line.  Back then there was the Emperor.  Sure, ideally we don't want to give that authority to a bishop, but can you tell me of an earthly ruler today who is a faithful Christian who looks after the best interest of the Church?

Yup, there's only one.  The head of state of this little country called The Vatican ;)
 

FormerReformer

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choy said:
Michał Kalina said:
orthonorm said:
Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.
To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.
Why not.  I think the Orthodox are in denial, but they need the Pope as a Pope.  Well, not totally.  First, not as someone with universal ordinary jurisdiction.  Perhaps just authority over the Patriarchs and other heads of autocephalous Churches.  And also drop the "this is Divinely Instituted" line.  But otherwise they do need someone to keep everyone else in line.  Back then there was the Emperor.  Sure, ideally we don't want to give that authority to a bishop, but can you tell me of an earthly ruler today who is a faithful Christian who looks after the best interest of the Church?

Yup, there's only one.  The head of state of this little country called The Vatican ;)
No. Sharia first.

 

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JamesRottnek said:
Michał Kalina said:
Shanghaiski said:
Michał Kalina said:
Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way?
Indeed.

Marc1152 said:
News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost.

That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople...
And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem.
Jewish, not Palestinian.
 

podkarpatska

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Kerdy said:
I personally do not care what the politics are about or why people are getting feelings hurt.  Everyone, in every area, needs to understand what the Church is for and stop whatever it is they are doing to cause problems, regardless of who that person is or what position they fill.  I like the OCA and I hope they get things under control.  America NEEDS them!  Russia NEEDS the Russian Orthodox Church.  Greece NEEDS the Greek Orthodox Church and so on.  No one on this earth owns any part of any church.  It all belongs to God.  So, my advice to all of them is get back to work and stop playing around.  People need you!

(Disclaimer - I realize there is a lot behind the scenes I know little about, especially after reading this thread, but a little common sense goes a long way and it sounds like some is needed in respect to this thread topic.  It’s a messy situation and I am glad I don’t have to sort it all out.)
No need for a disclaimer, you hit the nail on the head... It is interesting in that St. Paul gave the similar advice to the Corinthians some 2000 years ago.... The more things change....
 

BTRAKAS

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podkarpatska said:
Marc1152 said:
Does anyone think that he will go to Rocor? He is often at St. John the Baptist Cathedral here in DC. There is an open chair available in Rocor for a Bishop for this geographic area since +Met Hillarian prefers to live in Australia.

As we speak there is a joint meeting of Moscow Pat. and Rocor clergy going on. The three Russian Jurisdictions really should come together in some manner. +Jonah could be in the center of that project if he chooses. Most people I know like and respect him.
I will be blunt. I understand that the Metropolitan is a nice man and exhudes warmth and pastoral goodness one on one. As a hierarch, I fear he is toxic on account of what has transpired - some of it is self-inflicted and much of it is probably unfair. Go to his letter of resignation and re-read it - if he was truthful therein, the answer to your question is there. If he were untruthful - do you want such a man in an important position? Moscow is, if anything, masterful at church politics and while they won't 'pull the rug' out on the Metropolitan as his personal relationships there are real and he has true friends in the Russian Church - I just don't see them viewing him as a 'player' in the Americas. There is more to Orthodoxy than Russia and certainly more to Orthodoxy in America than the various strands of the east Slavic derived jurisdictions.
This comment makes more sense and explains Metropolitan Jonah's current circumstances, and the actions of the Holy Synod, more rationally than anything else I've read about this entire matter.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
I would really love to see a petition addressed to His Eminence Jonah asking him to repudiate all this nonsense being done in his name.
People have been asking God to do that for years ...   :D   But I noticed that Metropolitan Jonah's mother has now signed the petition for an investigation.
 

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I was unaware that his mother was a member of the OCA.

Orual said:
ICXCNIKA said:
I would really love to see a petition addressed to His Eminence Jonah asking him to repudiate all this nonsense being done in his name.
People have been asking God to do that for years ...   :D   But I noticed that Metropolitan Jonah's mother has now signed the petition for an investigation.
 

Marc1152

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Kerdy said:
Marc1152 said:
From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church  :)

Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me.
Which is in the Russian style.

The OCA tradition of Worship is Russian/Ukrainian. They grew out of the Russian presence in North America and were associated with Moscow until granted independence..  Moscow considers them a "A daughter Church".. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Nativity of the Theotokos OCA Parish:
 

JamesRottnek

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Michał Kalina said:
JamesRottnek said:
Michał Kalina said:
Shanghaiski said:
Michał Kalina said:
Your situation somehow resembles situation in Poland in the interwar: Polish oriented bishops vs. Russian oriented bishops vs. Ukrainian oriented bishops vs. Polish oriented priests vs. Russian oriented priests vs. Ukrainian oriented priests vs. Belarusian oriented priests vs. Polish oriented laity vs. Russian oriented laity vs. Ukrainian oriented laity vs. Belarusian oriented laity vs. autocephaly supporters vs. autocephaly opponents vs. state authorities vs. Roman Catholics vs. Ukrainian Catholics vs. Neo-Uniates vs. old calendarists vs. new calendarists vs. Wester Riters vs. mother Church(es); polemics in newspapers, books and bulletins; depositions, suspensions, laitisations, excommunications flying here and there; some unofficial sobors and gatherings of "concerned laity"...

I hope none of your archimandrites won't finally shot the metropolitan (or, in your case, the 3 of them) as one of ours did.

We needed Stalin to clean up the situation. I wonder how you will solve your mess.
Wow, that is a mess. Did Uncle Joe clean it up in the usual way?
Indeed.

Marc1152 said:
News flash.. The OCA is a Russian Orthodox Church that is now independent of Moscow
That's where I'm getting lost.

That would make the Moscow Patriarchate a Greek Church that is now independent of the Constantinople...
And Constnatinople a Palestinian Church that is now independent of Jerusalem.
Jewish, not Palestinian.
Well Jewish isn't an area of land; Palestine is.
 

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Marc1152 said:
Kerdy said:
Marc1152 said:
From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church  :)

Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me.
Which is in the Russian style.

The OCA tradition of Worship is Russian/Ukrainian. They grew out of the Russian presence in North America and were associated with Moscow until granted independence..  Moscow considers them a "A daughter Church".. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Nativity of the Theotokos OCA Parish:
I understand the basic history.  I believe the reason for debate isn't historical, rather present conditions.  I get the feeling the OCA thinks of itself as American, for America, not subjugated to Russia.  I belong to a Greek parish which meetings in a small church owned by the Roman Catholic Church down the highway.  That doesn't make us Catholic.  Personally, I feel ethnicity in America is holding the Church down, a crutch used for comfort rather than following the great commission, but I am certain, as I have seen on this forum, various arguments against this opinion.  We are all one Orthodox Church and if we can ever figure out how to operate as such, imagine the glories which could be accomplished for God.  But it's just my new convert views and I could be missing out on something very important.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
I was unaware that his mother was a member of the OCA.
Metropolitan Jonah's mother is not in the OCA, that's true.  The petition is not about supporting Metropolitan Jonah, it's asking for an impartial investigation of the circumstances surrounding his resignation.  Her signature on the petition strikes me as significant because she more than likely witnessed some of those events personally.
 

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I would imagine that any investigation would revolve around Abp. Jonah as it was his voluntary act to resign. I would imagine she could just ask him.


Orual said:
ICXCNIKA said:
I was unaware that his mother was a member of the OCA.
Metropolitan Jonah's mother is not in the OCA, that's true.  The petition is not about supporting Metropolitan Jonah, it's asking for an impartial investigation of the circumstances surrounding his resignation.  Her signature on the petition strikes me as significant because she more than likely witnessed some of those events personally.
 

Second Chance

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Marc1152 said:
Kerdy said:
Marc1152 said:
From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church  :)

Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me.
Which is in the Russian style.

The OCA tradition of Worship is Russian/Ukrainian. They grew out of the Russian presence in North America and were associated with Moscow until granted independence..  Moscow considers them a "A daughter Church".. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Nativity of the Theotokos OCA Parish:
It is debatable because you keep on using a term that is not correct: OCA is an autocephalous church, she is not an independent church.  If she were independent, she would be part of another church. Do you now see?
 

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Yes, such an excellent point.  The Holy Orthodox Churches are united in communion and doctrine.  The petition of the Divine Liturgy "..for the good estate of the Holy Churches of God, and unity of them, let us pray to the Lord," is one of our prayers so that all Orthodox Christians pray for the the unity of the church, the One Church.

In addition to manifesting our unity through the chalice, I always look to the Bishop's Throne, which reminds all Orthodox Christians that they are not "independent" parishes, but "dependent" parishes, dependent on the authority of our bishop.  Throughout the world, Orthodox Christians pray "First of all, remember our Bishop...," who, commemorates the head of the provincial synod of which he is a member, and the "First among them," the primate of a region, commemorates the primate of the Holy Synod which governs his province; (not there there is necessarily a province), in which case the diocesan bishop commemorates the primate of the Holy Synod of which he is a member.  And finally, the primates of the Holy Churches, commemorate each other, all the primates or heads ("celfaly," in Greek) of the Holy Orthodox Churches, a wonderful witness of the unity of the Holy Orthodox Church.

For those who don't know, "autocephalos" means "self-headed," simply having the privilege or right of electing the head of the local church, without reference to another of the sister Orthodox Churches, such as in regard to an "autonomous" church which must have the election of its primate, or first hierarch, approved by the mother church to which it refers, or is under.
 

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I have no idea why I went over to the Monomakhos blog. I read all these conspiracy theories (the HS are really Nestorian Werewolves). One person states a falsehood and everyone quotes the falsehood because it is part of the "public record". When I ask for proof for these wild accusations they ignore it and just keep on feeding off one another. I am starting to get really aggravated. the question was asked earlier if Abp Jonah was behind this. Then somesone stated that his mother signed this scandalous petition. Now there is someone posting who states that she is his mother on the unofficial FB Page of Abp Jonah. Stating that he was forced to resign against his will...under threat. The Holy Synod only mistake was allowing this buffonery to go on for 4 years and for allowing this to continue post resignation. I will be contacting the HS to beg them to finally hold Abp Jonah accountable for his actions.
 

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choy said:
Michał Kalina said:
orthonorm said:
Nice! Although I think JamesR might take your post a little too seriously.
To be frankly, I am now far from being sure that such a situation can be solved internally, using the organic and lawful actions.

I used to be an autocephaly-everywhere supporter but now I am starting to doubt that small local churches with no (or almost no) back up from the outside can succeed. I do not only think about the OCA, but about the Polish or Finnish or the Portuguese (self-ruled under Poland in the 90s) Churches as well.

Or maybe that's not the size but an autocephaly thing? There were no autocephaly granting that caused no problems or controversies (propably but Roman, Antiochian, Alexandrian and Jerusalemite):

Constantinoplian - Rome opposed
Cypriot - Antioch had opposed
Bulgarian - which one of the 3 do you want to know?...

I do not support any kind of Vatican-like dictatorships but there is a problem and we do not have any solution yet but "wait 150 years until it settles". We need a better one.
Why not.  I think the Orthodox are in denial, but they need the Pope as a Pope.  Well, not totally.  First, not as someone with universal ordinary jurisdiction.  Perhaps just authority over the Patriarchs and other heads of autocephalous Churches.  And also drop the "this is Divinely Instituted" line.  But otherwise they do need someone to keep everyone else in line.  Back then there was the Emperor.  Sure, ideally we don't want to give that authority to a bishop, but can you tell me of an earthly ruler today who is a faithful Christian who looks after the best interest of the Church?

Yup, there's only one.  The head of state of this little country called The Vatican ;)
Oh yes, the Pope has done such an excellent job holding all the Roman Catholics in line. Send in the clowns!
 

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The Holy Synod only mistake was allowing this buffonery to go on for 4 years and for allowing this to continue post resignation. I will be contacting the HS to beg them to finally hold Abp Jonah accountable for his actions.
From my perspective their essential mistake was pushing him to resign. But be that as it may…just what actions are you proposing Metropolitan Jonah be held "accountable" for…his mother taking umbrage at how he was treated…or at least someone claiming to be his mother.  What has he done except keep quiet publicly since his resignation?  Or is it because he's kept quiet and not justified the Holy Synod in what they did to him. After the way he has been lied about, vilified, mocked, disrespected, you name it…he's supposed to step back in the middle of it to tell those who think he was wronged…"Hush now I deserved all the terrible things that were said about me and done to me…for the greater good…you know…and if they do even more it's OK…just don't worry your heads about it…I'll just give up on life quietly and get a greeter's job at Walmart. I'll be fine."  

Where have I heard the old "tell your people to be quiet" line before….seems there was something about "the rocks crying out" if they did…or maybe it was "give us Barrabus" who can keep these silly things straight anyway.

Even though I think it is the right thing to do…at least to offer, I don't think it is likely Metropolitan Jonah will be reinstated as the primate of the OCA…though miracles do happen. If they can't walk that decision back they should at least establish him in a diocese…and if they can't find the Christian charity to that…then let him go to ROCOR or the MP or whoever else might be willing to receive him.

And as for Monomakhaos…I have read it too, especially since July (didn't know about it before then).  I don't see there what you see. I do see a lot of anger. I do see a lot of frustration. I don't see conspiracy theories.  I don't see absurd or ridiculous accusations….most of the one's I've seen look pretty solidly established…some painstakingly so….and I never once saw any member of the Holy Synod referred to as a Nestorian…and would that it were so simple that some were werewolves…how to deal with that sort of monster is fairly well established in tradition and folklore.  How to deal with the ostensible bad actors on the Holy Synod and at Syossett is another kettle of stinky fish entirely.

And as for writing…I suppose our "votes" will cancel each other out as I've written to members of the Holy Synod and to Syossett asking them to reconsider the wisdom of what they have done.
 

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Just wondering how someone can be reinstated after resigning voluntarily?

Do they say something like, "Ooops! Just kidding, folks, I can't believe that you all took me seriously when I said I was temperamentally unsuited for the position and had serious flaws as an administrator? Why not give me a mulligan, how's about it?"
 

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Just wondering how someone can be reinstated after resigning voluntarily?

Do they say something like, "Ooops! Just kidding, folks, I can't believe that you all took me seriously when I said I was temperamentally unsuited for the position and had serious flaws as an administrator? Why not give me a mulligan, how's about it?"
Bishops wrongfully driven from their thrones have been reinstated before, so there's bound to be some procedural precedent.  In this case I suspect some fervent prostrations of repentance would be a good start.

The issue isn't that Metropolitan Jonah said he was temperamentally unsuited to be Primate of the OCA (that statement can be read on two levels), it was that the reason given by the Holy Synod for asking him to resign was an utter fabrication. They said he had mishandled a priest involved in some serious sexual misconduct making it sound like he was involved in some sort of cover up. They smeared his name all over. Yet the things he was accused of by the Holy Synod simply didn't happen.  The young woman who was supposedly raped or nearly so publicly repudiated the whole incident.

So regardless of Metropolitan Jonah's suitedness for the job he was asked to leave for very different and to my mind scandalously untrue reasons.  That is what the Holy Synod has to make right, first and foremost. If they want him to go because they find him difficult to work with…if that's a canonical reason say so. Don't defame a man with lies. He may have been temperamentally unsuited, but he was and is not morally and theologically compromised as are some of his accusers.

While I thought he was a good Metropolitan and if given time would have made a much better one, maybe even a great one, it is less important to me that he get the white hat back than that he be vindicated and given a diocese or given a canonical release….though I would welcome him back at the helm of the OCA…wiser now by virtue of his ordeal.
 

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katherineofdixie said:
Just wondering how someone can be reinstated after resigning voluntarily?

Do they say something like, "Ooops! Just kidding, folks, I can't believe that you all took me seriously when I said I was temperamentally unsuited for the position and had serious flaws as an administrator? Why not give me a mulligan, how's about it?"
The history of the Patriarchate of Constantinople probably has several instances of the patriarch either being deposed (or maybe even resigning) and being returned to the throne, IIRC.
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
katherineofdixie said:
Just wondering how someone can be reinstated after resigning voluntarily?

Do they say something like, "Ooops! Just kidding, folks, I can't believe that you all took me seriously when I said I was temperamentally unsuited for the position and had serious flaws as an administrator? Why not give me a mulligan, how's about it?"
The history of the Patriarchate of Constantinople probably has several instances of the patriarch either being deposed (or maybe even resigning) and being returned to the throne, IIRC.
Alexandria has one very famous case of it happening to one man multiple times.
 

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The only way Abp Jonah can be "reinstated" is if he is reelected by the Holy Synod which will never happen as they just got done asking for his resignation which he voluntarily gave.

katherineofdixie said:
Just wondering how someone can be reinstated after resigning voluntarily?

Do they say something like, "Ooops! Just kidding, folks, I can't believe that you all took me seriously when I said I was temperamentally unsuited for the position and had serious flaws as an administrator? Why not give me a mulligan, how's about it?"
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
The only way Abp Jonah can be "reinstated" is if he is reelected by the Holy Synod which will never happen as they just got done asking for his resignation which he voluntarily gave.
That ain't how his mother tells it:

Louise Shrader Paffhausen Please sign the petition. The treatment of my son is appalling.
October 11 at 4:14pm · Like
Louise Shrader Paffhausen How can I respect a synod that acts like the mafia.
October 11 at 4:14pm · Like
Louise Shrader Paffhausen Our whole family agrees as does my husband
October 11 at 4:15pm · Like
Louise Shrader Paffhausen The facts: HE WAS FORCED TO RESIGN - UNDER THREAT
October 11 at 4:17pm · Like
Also, his title is still Metropolitan Jonah.  The Synod has not tried to change that, only his style ("His Beatitude" versus "His Eminence").  Please make a note of it.
 

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Kerdy said:
Marc1152 said:
Kerdy said:
Marc1152 said:
From Page one of the OCA Parish directory.. Clearly a Greek Church  :)

Looks like a really neat OCA parish in America to me.
Which is in the Russian style.

The OCA tradition of Worship is Russian/Ukrainian. They grew out of the Russian presence in North America and were associated with Moscow until granted independence..  Moscow considers them a "A daughter Church".. I am not sure why this is being debated.

Nativity of the Theotokos OCA Parish:
I understand the basic history.  I believe the reason for debate isn't historical, rather present conditions.  I get the feeling the OCA thinks of itself as American, for America, not subjugated to Russia.  I belong to a Greek parish which meetings in a small church owned by the Roman Catholic Church down the highway.  That doesn't make us Catholic.  Personally, I feel ethnicity in America is holding the Church down, a crutch used for comfort rather than following the great commission, but I am certain, as I have seen on this forum, various arguments against this opinion.  We are all one Orthodox Church and if we can ever figure out how to operate as such, imagine the glories which could be accomplished for God.  But it's just my new convert views and I could be missing out on something very important.
You could be correct. The danger is that adopting an American Ethos can come dangerously close to adopting a Protestant Ethos.. I am sure you have heard those criticisms of the OCA before. But on the third hand :) providing a place where Protestants and Catholics can make a "Soft landing" is a worthwhile thing to have.

The other approach is to mimic the ethos of where Orthodoxy is very well established and allow the "Americanization" to go at a safer speed.
Let's not forget that +Met Jonah ( to come back to the topic), was converted into the Moscow Patriarchy on the Church Calendar etc. He was/is a good buffer between traditional piety and some ultra-modernistic impulses that have found it's way into the OCA.   
 

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TO CARL: I saw your post over on Monomakhos. I agree that our involvement in situations like the OCA's present troubles can be corrosive to the soul. It is easy…too easy to demonize those on the other side of an issue, easy to forget that honest men who love Christ and His Church can differ…even over persons and personalities as did Sts. Paul and Barnabus in the Acts of the Holy Apostles. Hard as it is to understand, the Holy Spirit can lead even through such disagreements. In the end though, none of that need lead to bitterness or anger or anything that would preclude us from entering into the Divine Liturgy and laying aside "all earthly cares" as it were…recognizing that despite our differences of opinion and understanding in this world where we must suffer to but know in part, we are united in the one chalice of Christ's one Body and Blood.

So…I wanted you to know, though we differ strongly on the question of this situation with Metropolitan Jonah and the Holy Synod, I do not doubt that what you want and what I want are ultimately the same thing…that God's will be done in His Church, and that His Spirit mercifully guide and direct our Holy Synod and all our bishops, clergy, monastics and laity…and us too that we may serve the furtherance of His Kingdom in all humility in whatsoever task God gives us to do.

We may argue vigorously here, help each other see our disagreements from other points of view, hopefully without rancor or anger, knowing that what binds us together in the Body is greater than our disputes, about which none of us sees so fully and clearly as to know in all respects what might be the mind of God…other than it is good for brothers to dwell in unity; it is like the oil that flowed down into Aaron's beard.
 

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NVM it would just be easier to find another Church.
Seraphim98 said:
The Holy Synod only mistake was allowing this buffonery to go on for 4 years and for allowing this to continue post resignation. I will be contacting the HS to beg them to finally hold Abp Jonah accountable for his actions.
From my perspective their essential mistake was pushing him to resign. But be that as it may…just what actions are you proposing Metropolitan Jonah be held "accountable" for…his mother taking umbrage at how he was treated…or at least someone claiming to be his mother.  What has he done except keep quiet publicly since his resignation?  Or is it because he's kept quiet and not justified the Holy Synod in what they did to him. After the way he has been lied about, vilified, mocked, disrespected, you name it…he's supposed to step back in the middle of it to tell those who think he was wronged…"Hush now I deserved all the terrible things that were said about me and done to me…for the greater good…you know…and if they do even more it's OK…just don't worry your heads about it…I'll just give up on life quietly and get a greeter's job at Walmart. I'll be fine."  

Where have I heard the old "tell your people to be quiet" line before….seems there was something about "the rocks crying out" if they did…or maybe it was "give us Barrabus" who can keep these silly things straight anyway.

Even though I think it is the right thing to do…at least to offer, I don't think it is likely Metropolitan Jonah will be reinstated as the primate of the OCA…though miracles do happen. If they can't walk that decision back they should at least establish him in a diocese…and if they can't find the Christian charity to that…then let him go to ROCOR or the MP or whoever else might be willing to receive him.

And as for Monomakhaos…I have read it too, especially since July (didn't know about it before then).  I don't see there what you see. I do see a lot of anger. I do see a lot of frustration. I don't see conspiracy theories.  I don't see absurd or ridiculous accusations….most of the one's I've seen look pretty solidly established…some painstakingly so….and I never once saw any member of the Holy Synod referred to as a Nestorian…and would that it were so simple that some were werewolves…how to deal with that sort of monster is fairly well established in tradition and folklore.  How to deal with the ostensible bad actors on the Holy Synod and at Syossett is another kettle of stinky fish entirely.

And as for writing…I suppose our "votes" will cancel each other out as I've written to members of the Holy Synod and to Syossett asking them to reconsider the wisdom of what they have done.
 

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Orual said:
ICXCNIKA said:
The only way Abp Jonah can be "reinstated" is if he is reelected by the Holy Synod which will never happen as they just got done asking for his resignation which he voluntarily gave.
That ain't how his mother tells it:

Louise Shrader Paffhausen Please sign the petition. The treatment of my son is appalling.
October 11 at 4:14pm · Like
Louise Shrader Paffhausen How can I respect a synod that acts like the mafia.
October 11 at 4:14pm · Like
Louise Shrader Paffhausen Our whole family agrees as does my husband
October 11 at 4:15pm · Like
Louise Shrader Paffhausen The facts: HE WAS FORCED TO RESIGN - UNDER THREAT
October 11 at 4:17pm · Like
Also, his title is still Metropolitan Jonah.   The Synod has not tried to change that, only his style ("His Beatitude" versus "His Eminence").  Please make a note of it.
If that is so than it was my mistake. I was under the Impression that he was to be referred to as Abp. Thank you for the correction. It was not an attempt on my part to be disrespectful just misubnderstood the directive. I will go back and double check.
 

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Just for the record, Metropolitan Jonah, with title and style, can be found here at the OCA website.

Since Vladyka resigned as metropolitan, he must utilize the the style "His Eminence, the Most Reverend", whereas retired metropolitans may continue to use the style "His Beatitude, the Most Blessed", as can be seen by the entries for Metropolitan Theodosius and Metropolitan Herman on the same page.

However, he retains the title, "former Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada" just as those metropolitans who resign (though Met. Herman is styled, "former Archbishop of Washington and New York, etc.", which was the title of the Metropolitan See when he retired).

As both retired and resigned primates of the OCA retain the title, "Metropolitan of All America and Canada" and the dignity of wearing the white klobuk, they also retain the right to be addressed as "Metropolitan ______".
 

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Seraphim98 said:
Just wondering how someone can be reinstated after resigning voluntarily?

Do they say something like, "Ooops! Just kidding, folks, I can't believe that you all took me seriously when I said I was temperamentally unsuited for the position and had serious flaws as an administrator? Why not give me a mulligan, how's about it?"
Bishops wrongfully driven from their thrones have been reinstated before, so there's bound to be some procedural precedent.  In this case I suspect some fervent prostrations of repentance would be a good start.

The issue isn't that Metropolitan Jonah said he was temperamentally unsuited to be Primate of the OCA (that statement can be read on two levels), it was that the reason given by the Holy Synod for asking him to resign was an utter fabrication. They said he had mishandled a priest involved in some serious sexual misconduct making it sound like he was involved in some sort of cover up. They smeared his name all over. Yet the things he was accused of by the Holy Synod simply didn't happen.  The young woman who was supposedly raped or nearly so publicly repudiated the whole incident.

So regardless of Metropolitan Jonah's suitedness for the job he was asked to leave for very different and to my mind scandalously untrue reasons.  That is what the Holy Synod has to make right, first and foremost. If they want him to go because they find him difficult to work with…if that's a canonical reason say so. Don't defame a man with lies. He may have been temperamentally unsuited, but he was and is not morally and theologically compromised as are some of his accusers.

While I thought he was a good Metropolitan and if given time would have made a much better one, maybe even a great one, it is less important to me that he get the white hat back than that he be vindicated and given a diocese or given a canonical release….though I would welcome him back at the helm of the OCA…wiser now by virtue of his ordeal.


I love Metropolitan Jonah - nothing would have pleased me more than for him to have become our Bishop after Archbishop Dmitri reposed.

But you must have read a different version of the letter from the Holy Synod than I did.
 

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Seraphim98 said:
The issue isn't that Metropolitan Jonah said he was temperamentally unsuited to be Primate of the OCA (that statement can be read on two levels), it was that the reason given by the Holy Synod for asking him to resign was an utter fabrication. They said he had mishandled a priest involved in some serious sexual misconduct making it sound like he was involved in some sort of cover up. They smeared his name all over. Yet the things he was accused of by the Holy Synod simply didn't happen.  The young woman who was supposedly raped or nearly so publicly repudiated the whole incident.
Seraphim--I know that I am not going to change your mind. I hope that you do not mind me contesting an accusation that you made above. My goal is to balance the record for the benefit of those who read your statement.

First, the Holy Synod did not ask +Jonah to resign over the case that you are referring to. Rather it was for many reasons that occurred over time. Readers are asked to please read the sattement from the Holy Synod at http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf

Second, at issue was not the guilt or innocence of the accused priest. At issue was how +Jonah handled (or rather mishandled) the accusation. To make things even more ironic is the fact that +Jonah himself promulgated the policy that he failed to observe. For a copy of the promulgation letter, see http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2010/2010-0809-letterfrom+mj.pdf
 

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However, the Holy Synod definitely should discipline those who question its authority, integrity, sexuality, humanity etc. Maybe the Monomakhos blog is a surrogate maybe it isn't however any lay person calling the Holy Synod a Gay Cabal can and should be held acountable.
Who is questioning the authority of the Holy Synod?  Christ Himself lambasted the Sanhedrin for their corruptness…yet he defended their authority "for they sit in the seat of Moses."  Are you saying this or any synod is de facto possessing integrity, that it cannot err. Do not their deeds either commend or accuse them. And if they are reprovable are you saying the Body should not call them to account?  As for Gay Cabal, how many does it take to make a cabal gay or otherwise? As for Gay…how many of the Bishops of the OCA sitting or retired are known homosexuals. How many support at least tacitly the acceptance of gay lifestyles? How many of those who are homosexual have been known to possess copious amounts of gay porn? How many investigations into reported gay activity among the bishops and other clergy have quashed? How many priests or other clergy who brought these actives to light have been rewarded…and how many punished/left in limbo/sent beyond murphy's stump?  Don't know it all rises to the level of a Cabal…but there are enough of that persuasion with influence to create a problem for the OCA at it's highest levels of administration.

It is for the Holy Synod to determine the appropriate course of action. I merely let them know how this ongoing scandal is affecting the image and reputation of the OCA.
 No doubt that it does…but I don't think so much in the direction you mean.

Yes, kept quiet while his so called supporters have spread lies and falsehoods lionozing him and villifying the Holy Synod.
Just what lies about the Holy Synod have been told? I'll agree big chunks of the Holy Synod have been villianized…but from what I can see it's largely because they were acting in a villainous manner. It may be overheated…but not unsubstantiated or meritless.  One thing is for sure the Holy Synod has done a very poor job of defending and demonstrating the rightness of their decision. If nothing else they have a huge PR problem.

He was lied about? villified?
Yes…absolutely.  Your own posts that seem to border on hatred of him are a case in point. Why did the Holy Synod ask for his resignation. What specific cause did they give. Was that cause true or not true? If not true, they either lied or were lied to. If lied to, then they've had plenty of time to make apology and correction. They have not…so if the stated reason they gave or not true…then there is only one way to characterize their deed.

what about the Holy SYnod that went out of their way to try work with a man that said one thing and did another. Did you even read the SMPAC report on Pokrov. Please read page 7 which was more than enough to remove him from office for gross incompetence and negligence.
What about it? That wasn't why they asked him to resign. If those things were the reason, then that should have been stated explicitly as the reason. Beyond that…look at who wrote and signed that document. These people opposed and worked against His Beatitude from the very beginning…he was supposed to trust them, "work" with the very people trying to undermine him as Metropolitan?"  As far as I am concerned its all bad apples and bad trees. I don't trust the source of the document, so I don't know how far or in what way to trust the document itself. As I remember his days as our Metropolitan, it seems he as all the time being disrespected and hindered by those who should have been his support. I don't blame him for not working well with them. Who could?

If you are wondering where you have heard that line about keeping people quiet before you must have heard it from Abp Jonah and Fr Fester.
No…I think it was Jesus.

If you don't see conspiracy theories on that blog then it is because you gullibally believing them.
I see a lot of facts and unpacking of facts that strike me as reasonable. It doesn't make the Holy Synod look good…but if that's where the facts point, that's where they point. While I may take some exception to overly strident tones there on occasion…the general thrust of the information does not lead me to believe it to be the product of nutters and extremists.  I see the concern of people who love Christ and His Church who think the leadership of the OCA is in serious trouble and has done some seriously questionable things, things that need correcting now, if the OCA is to survive and grow as an Orthodox communion.

So let me get this straight it is your premise that the poor martyr Abp Jonah was brutally and seditiously attacked by every member of the Holy Synod, the Metropolitan Council, the officers of the church and many others in leadership roles with in the church?
It wasn't what I wanted to think…but what they did and what they've since has made it much more thinkable. First I don't know if it was the whole synod who asked him to resign. It may have been the Lesser synod which was improperly represented as the whole synod. Still, if that was the case the whole synod hasn't broken ranks on the matter and suggests they are in agreement with it or are not willing to challenge it. There is no serious question of the sedition. The facts and the way the Holy Synod has acted towards the Body and towards His Beatitude speak volumes.  Personally I'm not convinced that the whole synod to a man went after him or even necessarily wanted him gone…but those who did not for one reason or another have not spoken up or out. Some see them as too weak or old…some see them as cowards in the face of bullying episcopal brothers. I don't know their reasons. They've not shared them. Their collective wall of silence in the face of what is obviously great love and admiration for Metropolitan Jonah is puzzling to the point of creepy.  So something is going on. Something is seriously amiss with the Holy Synod.  What makes it even more troubling is that the MP seemed to take a dim view of their actions…and let them know it…and since they have rebuffed representatives of the MP, basically brushing them off as if they and what they thought didn't matter for us.  You don't just go poking our Mother Church, previously biggest ally and supporter in the eye with stick. As I said, something is very wrong at the highest levels of the leadership of the OCA.

As for Metropolitan Jonah…they would have to kill him to make a true martyr of him…but they seem to be working double time to enroll him among the ranks of the Confessors who were unjustly persecuted and suffered for Christ's sake.  

The whole world is wrong and he is innocent and right?
Hardly the whole world…basically just the present leadership of the OCA. The leader of the largest Orthodox confession in the world took Metropolitan Jonah's side, as do a great many of the clergy and faithful in the OCA.

Strange how many of these attacks from his supporters end the same way. "Just return him to the DOS" *wink *wink* Or else what? We will continue to try to destroy the Church until we get our way?
What is strange "wink wink" about wanting a good man as the bishop of the DoS. He was handpicked by our former and much beloved Archbishop, and we thought highly of his choice. If the OCA no longer wants him as Metropolitan, then give him back to us.

As for destroying the Church…it is not his supporter I see being destructive to the church but rather those who ousted him…they have compromised us seriously in face of the other Orthodox church in the world.  Who can take us seriously now and for a long time to come? As for the unwashed masses getting their way…were the masses wrong to keep agitating against and hounding the bishops who signed off on the Council of Florence until they either repented or were driven away?  Archbishop Dimitri said near the time of his death that if the faithful do not fight for what they have, they will lose everything. We may well be in one of those situations that requires the faithful to be very vocal and very "in the face" to preserve the faith from the deeds and desires of unfaithful shepherds.

ANd btw I have personally disproven many of the lies spread on that blog with actual facts. Also why is it that none of the pro Abp Jonah supporters there or here can provide evidence for their assertions? I provided my evidence to George and he had no rebuttal other than syosset is corrupt. I would more than happy to pm the post.
Too date I've not seen anything that would suggest the core assertions on "that blog" on this matter are mistaken. If you wish to PM me about it fine…but from what I've seen since July, the notion that Syosset is corrupt doesn't seem far from the mark.  Even if it weren't it is an improper administrative structure for an Orthodox church. It has far too much power over the Holy Synod when it should be the other way around. The Holy Synod should not be on track to be reduced to high ranking employees of a professional central administration composed of priests and laity. Person I give good bit of weight to the clash of cultures theory.  I think there are competing visions of what Orthodoxy in America is and how it should grow and Syosset stands on one side of that divide and Metropolitan Jonah and those who support him on the other. Then there are those on both sides who think things are so messed up now the best course is to surrender our autocephalacy and go back to the MP or elsewhere for the foreseeable future. More and more I think there is merit to that position.
 

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First, the Holy Synod did not ask +Jonah to resign over the case that you are referring to. Rather it was for many reasons that occurred over time. Readers are asked to please read the sattement from the Holy Synod at http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf

Second, at issue was not the guilt or innocence of the accused priest. At issue was how +Jonah handled (or rather mishandled) the accusation. To make things even more ironic is the fact that +Jonah himself promulgated the policy that he failed to observe. For a copy of the promulgation letter, see http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2010/2010-0809-letterfrom+mj.pdf
I've seen these…and they are part of the problem. This is where the substantial postings over on Monomackhos caught my attention. As the details of the incident regarding this priest and nuns have been unpacked there are serious discrepancies between what happened and how Metropolitan Jonah handled things and how that has been characterized by the Holy Synod.  If the content shared on Monomackhos is accurate with respect to the policies and procedures in play during the time of this incident, the Metropolitan Jonah did not mishandle the case and dealt with it in accord with OCA standards. If that's true then the Holy Synod has some 'splainin' to do. This is especially so in light of the fact that they represented his resignation to the world as a failed attempt as the cover up/mishandling of a serious sexual scandal.  That is defamatory…especially since in effect there was no sexual scandal.

That's why I think the suggestion to bring in some outside heirarchs to sift through all this would be a good idea.  There are some serious facts in question, and someone is not telling the truth…and neither party is impartial enough in the other's eyes to be trusted with seeing, much less telling the truth.
 

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Seraphim98 said:
First, the Holy Synod did not ask +Jonah to resign over the case that you are referring to. Rather it was for many reasons that occurred over time. Readers are asked to please read the sattement from the Holy Synod at http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2012/2012-0716-holy-synod-statement.pdf

Second, at issue was not the guilt or innocence of the accused priest. At issue was how +Jonah handled (or rather mishandled) the accusation. To make things even more ironic is the fact that +Jonah himself promulgated the policy that he failed to observe. For a copy of the promulgation letter, see http://oca.org/PDF/NEWS/2010/2010-0809-letterfrom+mj.pdf
I've seen these…and they are part of the problem. This is where the substantial postings over on Monomackhos caught my attention. As the details of the incident regarding this priest and nuns have been unpacked there are serious discrepancies between what happened and how Metropolitan Jonah handled things and how that has been characterized by the Holy Synod.  If the content shared on Monomackhos is accurate with respect to the policies and procedures in play during the time of this incident, the Metropolitan Jonah did not mishandle the case and dealt with it in accord with OCA standards. If that's true then the Holy Synod has some 'splainin' to do. This is especially so in light of the fact that they represented his resignation to the world as a failed attempt as the cover up/mishandling of a serious sexual scandal.  That is defamatory…especially since in effect there was no sexual scandal.

That's why I think the suggestion to bring in some outside heirarchs to sift through all this would be a good idea.  There are some serious facts in question, and someone is not telling the truth…and neither party is impartial enough in the other's eyes to be trusted with seeing, much less telling the truth.
Those are some mighty important "if"s you have there.
 
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