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has anyone here actually waited till marriage to have sex ?

88Devin12

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I've honestly decided to no longer take people seriously when they "disprove" or discredit something. If anyone does a credible and reliable study out there, or uses a proven and credible method. There is inevitably going to be someone (or even a group) who disagrees for one reason or another and comes up with a conflicting study that supposedly discredits whatever they want to discredit.

If someone disagrees with something, inevitably they are going to find proof that what they disagree with is actually wrong.

One study may suggest that low, but regular levels of consumption of red wine can help prolong one's life. Another study would come forward "disproving" that idea, suggesting the absolute opposite.

There are some people out there who supposedly have found proof that the Earth is actually young, and that mankind & dinosaurs co-existed. There are others who have supposedly found proof that global warming doesn't actually exist, or that mankind isn't contributing to it.

I think it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Or its like many archeologists. If an archeologist wants to find Atlantis, and looks for it, he is inevitably going to "find" it. Like those looking for the Holy Grail or some other holy object. They look for it, and when they find something from that time period, they fit it into their narrative. Many will search for a female goddess in ancient Judaism and so will look at what they think are ancient Jewish synagogues or Hebrew places of worship and will move it's contents around to fit where they think they should go, and therefore create their own narrative, their own history.

I don't know anything about what you guys are talking about (that is, the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), but I've simply come to the point where I just simply don't care about what dissenters have "proven" unless it is actually something that it is actually proven and it can be proven that most experts (whether they be scientists, historians, psychologists etc...) actually accept the dissenting point of view.

Instead of just linking to Wikipedia, I would suggest actually citing reliable and majority sources (that are peer-reviewed) on the subject. As well as showing study-based evidence that proves the majority of experts accept the point you are making.
 

Punch

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orthonorm said:
No legitimate psychologist uses a MB. 
More BS.  Not only do major companies use it (administered by psycologists), but the military does, too.  In fact, the psychologist that I dealt with spent years working with the Air Force using the MB as a part of the program.  And believe me, it is not done to "boost morale".  Some of these sessions were anything but cheerful rah rah sessions.  But then again, you have pretty much proved to me that you know nothing about this particular subject, so I can see further discussion about this with you will provide little useful information.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


orthonorm said:
Freud is is a cliched brilliant.

Jung is a goof. genius

And I'll leave it at that.
Fixed that for ya ;)
age234 said:
JamesR said:
How can God expect us not to fornicate but allow us to be born with an insatiable sexual appetite?
For much of history, people got married around the time their sexual appetites got to that point. The biggest issue may be that people wait 10 years longer to marry than their bodies say they should. However, that's not an excuse for fornication. Appealing to circumstance is nothing less than an excuse, and neither is "everyone is doing it."

To the OP, I have and will continue to wait. I'm thankful to personally know many people who also make this obedience a priority.
We read of plenty of folks in the time of the Fathers marrying in their late 20s for the same reasons people wait to get married today, financial, political, and socio-cultural aspects of the Roman Empire.  It is not surprising as we live in the New Rome that we deal with the parallel issues.  In other words, we can't necessarily blame some kind of societal gap which conflicts with our biology, because in other societies we've had the same situation.  Just because people are sexually driven at 15, doesn't necessarily imply these always do or even should get married.  Some people get married young, some do not.  Some people can wait until marriage to cool their sexual appetites, some can not.  It is important for us to understand two things about this (a) overcoming our carnal appetites be they for food, wrath, or sex, can only happen in synergy with God and not by our own force of will and (b) when we inevitably fail at these ideals (which we all will do in some way or another) this is precisely why Confession has been instituted for ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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OK, I admit I was broad in my comment about marriage age. I was mostly thinking of the ancient Jews (and probably others) who tended to get married in their younger teens. That may have been more culturally-specific than I realized.

But I think we all agree that the calling to a high standard of conduct remains, and fornication is never acceptable, regardless of the marriage age. Waiting until marriage to have sex is totally possible if it's a high enough priority in one's life. Millions and millions of people manage it.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

age234 said:
OK, I admit I was broad in my comment about marriage age. I was mostly thinking of the ancient Jews (and probably others) who tended to get married in their younger teens. That may have been more culturally-specific than I realized.

But I think we all agree that the calling to a high standard of conduct remains, and fornication is never acceptable, regardless of the marriage age.
Many Christian cultures through out history and today have a period of "extended engagment" where folks essentially look the other way about sexual activity and if pregnancy results it is expected the young couple gets married.  Divorce is a social institution as much as an individual one.  We as a society or culture or social-support group accept and embrace divorce rather than reconciliation, we acquiesce to it rather then pushing and supporting reconciling.  This is how promiscuity and fornication have become the normal sexuality of the modern world, because we don't enforce the societal relationships and expectations of marriage in the first place! Historically, sexual expression has always been a shade of gray, and marriage has always been an ideal, however it was one which more often was supported rather then scoffed or neglected.  The entire family and indeed must support marriage for it to work.  We have to think of divorce as almost akin to spiritual suicide and work from them.  Its not about being over judgmental or harsh, rather the opposite, to be reconciling, embracing, supportive, empathetic to the cause of marriage.  We have to support our marriages, encourage our marriages, love our married folks, not just shrug our shoulders and accept divorce as the new marriage.  Before, kids could be allowed to have these extended engagements because society as a whole would hold them to the expectation of getting married rather today, we still allow kids to form the same relationships we always have for thousands of years, rather, we don't expect marriage any long  :-\

Above all else, we need to promote Sacramental Marriage. Lets be honest, why is marriage failing in America? Its not Sacramental and so is not blessed by God's Grace.  Our Protestant and secular marriages are largely imaginary in the eyes of God, so what can we expect? We are trying to force ourselves into marriages which are not sanctified, and it is no wonder these fail time and time again. ALL marriage will inherently fail if solely by human efforts, this is why God sent us the Mystery of Holy Matrimony so that by His Grace He can keep us together when things get hard to bear.  In the 1950s a large portion of marriages were at the least Lutheran and hence pseudo-Sacramental, but the proof is in the pudding. Look how many of these marriages have lasted 50-60 years? How many of our imaginary, non-Sacramental marriages since have lasted that duration? Its embarrassing really.  We as Orthodox need to promote and encourage at every social level the concept and blessing of Sacramental Marriage, which can save our society and our fellow brothers and sisters from burning in lust.  Marriage sanctified sexuality, it converts lust into love.  Selfish seeking of pleasure becomes the desire to spiritually fulfill the needs of the other.  Sex outside of this marriage has realistically devolved into masturbation with a partner :(

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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I was listening to an Orthodox priest talking about how people in our faith did marry much younger way back when and that we need to provide people with community resources to maintain chastity as now the task largely falls on the individual. I asked for some Orthodox resources because our Catholic brethren seem to have a slew of resources - groups, forums, meetings, clubs etc to deal with chastity.
Also I've heard how 'courting' is starting to make a comeback, where both families are involved, and the courtship takes place within a more communal atmosphere. It sounds great, part of the idea is that the family makes sure you're not passing yourself off as someone you're not. It's hard to do today because so many families are broken up, but I don't know, perhaps some Orthodox entrepreneur will start an internet courting service... 
 

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spiltteeth said:
I was listening to an Orthodox priest talking about how people in our faith did marry much younger way back when and that we need to provide people with community resources to maintain chastity as now the task largely falls on the individual. I asked for some Orthodox resources because our Catholic brethren seem to have a slew of resources - groups, forums, meetings, clubs etc to deal with chastity.
Did he provide any? What are some of the Catholic resources you found?
 

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This lightside religious stuff seems very confusing and burdensome. The dark side seems much more appealing right now. No more judgment or condemnation, no more guilt or impossible ethical code to follow. Just absolute freedom and indulgence in my passions--along with the ability to be accepting of everyone opposed to judging them or telling them how they ought to behave like religion does. I highly sympathize with Anakin Skywalker's fall to the darkside.

Sorry I've been watching too much Star Wars
 

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JamesR said:
This lightside religious stuff seems very confusing and burdensome. The dark side seems much more appealing right now. No more judgment or condemnation, no more guilt or impossible ethical code to follow. Just absolute freedom and indulgence in my passions--along with the ability to be accepting of everyone opposed to judging them or telling them how they ought to behave like religion does. I highly sympathize with Anakin Skywalker's fall to the darkside.

Sorry I've been watching too much Star Wars
Yeah...and Anakin led a blissful life after his appetitive passions drove him to kill his wife and help Palpatine enslave a million worlds.

The Jedi are about bringing their passions under submission. A lot like Orthodoxy actually, except without lightsabers and midichlorians.

We do have the Holy Mysteries, though. Nothing is impossible for Christ who gives us strength.
 

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spiltteeth said:
I've heard how 'courting' is starting to make a comeback, where both families are involved, and the courtship takes place within a more communal atmosphere.
I agree with this. It was the way of things for a long time before this infernal dating concept arose. LARPing as married couples, full of false romanticism, for 10 or 15 years before actually getting married—what could go wrong?
 

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age234 said:
JamesR said:
This lightside religious stuff seems very confusing and burdensome. The dark side seems much more appealing right now. No more judgment or condemnation, no more guilt or impossible ethical code to follow. Just absolute freedom and indulgence in my passions--along with the ability to be accepting of everyone opposed to judging them or telling them how they ought to behave like religion does. I highly sympathize with Anakin Skywalker's fall to the darkside.

Sorry I've been watching too much Star Wars
Yeah...and Anakin led a blissful life after his appetitive passions drove him to kill his wife and help Palpatine enslave a million worlds.

The Jedi are about bringing their passions under submission. A lot like Orthodoxy actually, except without lightsabers and midichlorians.

We do have the Holy Mysteries, though. Nothing is impossible for Christ who gives us strength.
We don't need lightsabers and midichlorians.  We have Cossack sabres and medium tanks.  God save Vladimir Putin!  Lighthouse of Orthodoxy!
 

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age234 said:
spiltteeth said:
I've heard how 'courting' is starting to make a comeback, where both families are involved, and the courtship takes place within a more communal atmosphere.
I agree with this. It was the way of things for a long time before this infernal dating concept arose. LARPing as married couples, full of false romanticism, for 10 or 15 years before actually getting married—what could go wrong?
What's wrong with dating and marriage 2.0?  Is it really that wrong for one person to use another as a fashion accessory?
 

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Except plenty of people date for only 1-2 years and don't larp as married couples.
 

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When I "came to Christ" and was "born again" back in 1987, I committed to the Lord that I would be sexually pure with whomever He brought into my life. I met my the woman I would end up marrying about a year later. She was a virgin and was one still when we got married. Nothing other than kissing up to that point. I never let it get too intense.

Married 23 years now and I'm more crazy in love with her than ever.

It's possible. I knew what I was saying no to and it was worth the wait!!
 

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William said:
Except plenty of people date for only 1-2 years and don't larp as married couples.
I have observed a fair amount of dating in my life. Regardless of length of time, a majority of dating is essentially heavily romanticized LARPing as married, except perhaps for living in the same house.

That's just my opinion, but I do think dating instills a lot of potentially dangerous ideas and expectations of what marriage is. Romance is particularly dangerous, and the best marriage counselors make some effort to downplay romance and take off the blinders that these overly emotional times put on. Or if they go all the way (in more ways than one), there is no significant difference between marriage and dating, which is dangerous in its own way.
 

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age234 said:
William said:
Except plenty of people date for only 1-2 years and don't larp as married couples.
I have observed a fair amount of dating in my life. Regardless of length of time, a majority of dating is essentially heavily romanticized LARPing as married, except perhaps for living in the same house.

That's just my opinion, but I do think dating instills a lot of potentially dangerous ideas and expectations of what marriage is. Romance is particularly dangerous, and the best marriage counselors make some effort to downplay romance and take off the blinders that these overly emotional times put on. Or if they go all the way (in more ways than one), there is no significant difference between marriage and dating, which is dangerous in its own way.
Can you explain in what ways dating is too similar to marriage?
 

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spiltteeth said:
I would love to find a girl willing to wait; but these days in Ny they don't seem to exist. I fear i may never find anyone. Also does anyone know of any resourses or practical advice on remaining chaste?  Thank you.
If 2nd virginity counts, here i am waiting :)
 

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I'm an INFJ.  Less than 1% of the world's population is an INFJ.  No wonder I'm such a weirdo. 
 

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stpaulphilip said:
I'm an INFJ.  Less than 1% of the world's population is an INFJ.  No wonder I'm such a weirdo. 
Hey me too bro. If both of us are weird what does that say about us being Orthodox? lol
 

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I had to look those things up. I thought we were still talking about virginity statuses, given the topic..."What the...? How many categories can there possibly be?!" ??? :-[
 

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JamesR said:
This lightside religious stuff seems very confusing and burdensome. The dark side seems much more appealing right now. No more judgment or condemnation, no more guilt or impossible ethical code to follow. Just absolute freedom and indulgence in my passions--along with the ability to be accepting of everyone opposed to judging them or telling them how they ought to behave like religion does. I highly sympathize with Anakin Skywalker's fall to the darkside.

Sorry I've been watching too much Star Wars
Just be careful you don't become a slave to your passions, therefore giving up your newfound "freedom".

And seriously, look up Grey Jedi.
 

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JamesR said:
This lightside religious stuff seems very confusing and burdensome. The dark side seems much more appealing right now. No more judgment or condemnation, no more guilt or impossible ethical code to follow. Just absolute freedom and indulgence in my passions--along with the ability to be accepting of everyone opposed to judging them or telling them how they ought to behave like religion does. I highly sympathize with Anakin Skywalker's fall to the darkside.

Sorry I've been watching too much Star Wars
Who predicted this on Tikhon's thread?  :'(
 

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dzheremi said:
I had to look those things up. I thought we were still talking about virginity statuses, given the topic..."What the...? How many categories can there possibly be?!" ??? :-[
I took a MB test once.  The shrink said WTF.  Aren't most of these classifications four letters?
 

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So far, so good. I saw a poster at my old college that said that one in five people gets and STD. I remember thinking with disgust that this is my dating pool.  There is a reason to keep things zipped. Maybe if you get to talking with someone about it, they might gradually start to see that maybe there is value to waiting, like emotional protection in the event of a breakup, or respect for the person and valuing them before pleasure, or growth of other kinds of intimacy first so that the relationship truly deepens further...  I have dated someone who didn't wait and wasn't in a strong position about it, but recognized that God's way was better for us.  I was ok with that because when we both agreed on what to aim for, we could better aim ourselves in the same direction as a couple. We ended up splitting up for other reasons though.
 

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akimori makoto said:
Achronos said:
stpaulphilip said:
I'm an INFJ.  Less than 1% of the world's population is an INFJ.  No wonder I'm such a weirdo. 
Hey me too bro. If both of us are weird what does that say about us being Orthodox? lol
Thirded.
ESF P or J.

Interesting that MB results are the new four-letter-words. I should use them more at work. ;)
 

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Anastasia1 said:
So far, so good. I saw a poster at my old college that said that one in five people gets and STD. I remember thinking with disgust that this is my dating pool.  There is a reason to keep things zipped. Maybe if you get to talking with someone about it, they might gradually start to see that maybe there is value to waiting, like emotional protection in the event of a breakup, or respect for the person and valuing them before pleasure, or growth of other kinds of intimacy first so that the relationship truly deepens further...  I have dated someone who didn't wait and wasn't in a strong position about it, but recognized that God's way was better for us.  I was ok with that because when we both agreed on what to aim for, we could better aim ourselves in the same direction as a couple. We ended up splitting up for other reasons though.
You are smarter than whoever you marry probably deserves.
 

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dzheremi said:
Anastasia1 said:
So far, so good. I saw a poster at my old college that said that one in five people gets and STD. I remember thinking with disgust that this is my dating pool.  There is a reason to keep things zipped. Maybe if you get to talking with someone about it, they might gradually start to see that maybe there is value to waiting, like emotional protection in the event of a breakup, or respect for the person and valuing them before pleasure, or growth of other kinds of intimacy first so that the relationship truly deepens further...  I have dated someone who didn't wait and wasn't in a strong position about it, but recognized that God's way was better for us.  I was ok with that because when we both agreed on what to aim for, we could better aim ourselves in the same direction as a couple. We ended up splitting up for other reasons though.
You are smarter than whoever you marry probably deserves.
Wow. Thank you. I have been blessed to have many wise people in my life.
 

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vamrat said:
age234 said:
JamesR said:
This lightside religious stuff seems very confusing and burdensome. The dark side seems much more appealing right now. No more judgment or condemnation, no more guilt or impossible ethical code to follow. Just absolute freedom and indulgence in my passions--along with the ability to be accepting of everyone opposed to judging them or telling them how they ought to behave like religion does. I highly sympathize with Anakin Skywalker's fall to the darkside.

Sorry I've been watching too much Star Wars
Yeah...and Anakin led a blissful life after his appetitive passions drove him to kill his wife and help Palpatine enslave a million worlds.

The Jedi are about bringing their passions under submission. A lot like Orthodoxy actually, except without lightsabers and midichlorians.

We do have the Holy Mysteries, though. Nothing is impossible for Christ who gives us strength.
We don't need lightsabers and midichlorians.  We have Cossack sabres and medium tanks.  God save Vladimir Putin!  Lighthouse of Orthodoxy!
Amin! Slava Vladimiru!
 

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JamesR said:
How can God expect us not to fornicate but allow us to be born with an insatiable sexual appetite?
How can he expect that we don't be angry but to allow us to be born with anger? If you would follow right this sort of logic, you can say everything is allowed to me do, because everybody has more ore less jealousy, anger, hate, judging, sometimes desire to kill somebody, revenge, etc. in his character. You see the abyss of this logic?! To be born with something didn't mean you should accept it. We need the strangle against the passions, without it, we couldn't never reach humility.
 

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Maybe the question should have asked who wished they had waited until marriage.  Sometimes asking the wrong question gets the wrong answer.
 
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From the tone of many of these posts I'm guessing that a number of you are quite young men. Those of us who have reached an older age can verify it all gets easier once the body calms down and biology assumes you've done what you need to do to maintain the human race.
We are not cursed with these desires - God blessed us with a desire for our partner and should you allow that blessing to find its proper expression you will be closer to enjoying the fullness of what God intends for you. The quick, improper use will not be a longlasting joy. Remember the wedding at Cana - the last wine drawn was the best - a metaphor for the blessings that often come from many years shared in marriage - the deeper the relationship goes the better it can become.
There are plenty of faithful Orthodox women in the world. Sometimes a man will look past such a woman because of worldly ideals about beauty or body shape. However, if what your heart truly longs for is a righteous woman then you will be drawn to a righteous woman - you will be drawn to what you desire.
And if you want a righteous woman to be drawn to you, try to live out the gospel as well as you can - she'll find you. Remember - there are women out there seeking in a husband the virtues you seek in a wife - but ask yourself if such a woman would be attracted to you.
Keep praying. Keep fasting. The body will run amock if you let it, but will curb it's waywardness if you are stern with it and demand it follows your commands.
God bless you.
 

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Fr Spyridon said:
From the tone of many of these posts I'm guessing that a number of you are quite young men. Those of us who have reached an older age can verify it all gets easier once the body calms down and biology assumes you've done what you need to do to maintain the human race.
We are not cursed with these desires - God blessed us with a desire for our partner and should you allow that blessing to find its proper expression you will be closer to enjoying the fullness of what God intends for you. The quick, improper use will not be a longlasting joy. Remember the wedding at Cana - the last wine drawn was the best - a metaphor for the blessings that often come from many years shared in marriage - the deeper the relationship goes the better it can become.
There are plenty of faithful Orthodox women in the world. Sometimes a man will look past such a woman because of worldly ideals about beauty or body shape. However, if what your heart truly longs for is a righteous woman then you will be drawn to a righteous woman - you will be drawn to what you desire.
And if you want a righteous woman to be drawn to you, try to live out the gospel as well as you can - she'll find you. Remember - there are women out there seeking in a husband the virtues you seek in a wife - but ask yourself if such a woman would be attracted to you.
Keep praying. Keep fasting. The body will run amock if you let it, but will curb it's waywardness if you are stern with it and demand it follows your commands.
God bless you.
Thank you Father.

Your wisdom is appreciated.

Women also need to heed your advice as true love will wait. If we put God first in our relationship, then God will bless us. Yes, it takes prayer and fasting to control our passions, but the benefits far outweigh any small inconveniences.

When I was seeking a husband, I asked God to help me. I looked for three signs:
1. I would meet my future husband at a Christian gathering.
2. He would lead me into a deeper relationship with Christ.
3. He would be tall, blue-eyed, and blonde.

All three conditions were met within three months.
 

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Maria said:
Fr Spyridon said:
From the tone of many of these posts I'm guessing that a number of you are quite young men. Those of us who have reached an older age can verify it all gets easier once the body calms down and biology assumes you've done what you need to do to maintain the human race.
We are not cursed with these desires - God blessed us with a desire for our partner and should you allow that blessing to find its proper expression you will be closer to enjoying the fullness of what God intends for you. The quick, improper use will not be a longlasting joy. Remember the wedding at Cana - the last wine drawn was the best - a metaphor for the blessings that often come from many years shared in marriage - the deeper the relationship goes the better it can become.
There are plenty of faithful Orthodox women in the world. Sometimes a man will look past such a woman because of worldly ideals about beauty or body shape. However, if what your heart truly longs for is a righteous woman then you will be drawn to a righteous woman - you will be drawn to what you desire.
And if you want a righteous woman to be drawn to you, try to live out the gospel as well as you can - she'll find you. Remember - there are women out there seeking in a husband the virtues you seek in a wife - but ask yourself if such a woman would be attracted to you.
Keep praying. Keep fasting. The body will run amock if you let it, but will curb it's waywardness if you are stern with it and demand it follows your commands.
God bless you.
Thank you Father.

Your wisdom is appreciated.

Women also need to heed your advice as true love will wait. If we put God first in our relationship, then God will bless us. Yes, it takes prayer and fasting to control our passions, but the benefits far outweigh any small inconveniences.

When I was seeking a husband, I asked God to help me. I looked for three signs:
1. I would meet my future husband at a Christian gathering.
2. He would lead me into a deeper relationship with Christ.
3. He would be tall, blue-eyed, and blonde.

All three conditions were met within three months.
What a match-maker we have in Jesus! Amen!!!
 
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