Head of Orthodox Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia Visits Uzhhorod

podkarpatska

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ialmisry said:
podkarpatska said:
ialmisry said:
podkarpatska said:
From anecdotal sources, it would seem that the Muchachevo Eparchy of the Greek Catholics has the upper hand. If you follow the youtube channel of the Eparchy, logostvuzhgorod, (http://www.youtube.com/user/logostvuzhgorod?feature=g-all-u ), one can see evidence of a vibrant Church which has preserved its distinct historical identity notwithstanding great cultural and political pressures during the course of the 20th century. This is not to diminish the work and presence of the Orthodox, but merely to state what appears to be the reality on the ground.
I don't know about anecdotal evidence: most of those in the region I know from the other side of the border, where they preferred to worship on the lawn than go back into the church and submit back to the Vatican, when the Czechoslovak seized properties.  Would logostvuzhgorod show evidence of a vibrant Orthodox Church in the region?  I've dealt with too many of the followers of the Vatican who would play up the slightest evidence of its flock in the former Soviet block, and belittle the most obvious signs of life among the Orthodox (yes, catechesis is in order, but mass baptisms are not nothing, especially when such things would be lauded in the Czech republic, if they happened) to take that at face value.  Especially when I've been to Western Europe.

Btw, given their problems with the UGCC, I have far, far less problems with the Ruthenian Eparchy sui juris of Mukachevo, beyond its immediate submission to the Vatican, and its denial of the existence of the Orthodox Ruthenians.
I am not defending the EC's, just trying to be accurate regarding them. Outside of Ladimirova, Slovakia and its surroundings, most OCA and ACROD faithful with family there have more EC relatives than Orthodox. I have met Archbishop Jan of the Orthodox diocese of Presov on several of his visits to the states and he would concur that the Orthodox are in the minority on the Slovak side of the border.
I would too.  Most of the Russophiles ended up in Transcarpathia, for a variety of reasons, and those who followed the Vatican remained in Slovakia, for a variety of reasons, including those that led to the rise of the Greek-Catholic Church in Slovakia.

podkarpatska said:
Several months back the MP posted a beautiful link to Orthodox churches in Zakarpatia and there are a number of independent videos posted from time to time. But on neither the Slovak nor the Ukrainian side of the border have the Orthodox utilized the internet as effectively as have the EC's.  At least we American cousins at ACROD and the UOC-USA have first class websites with many multimedia links and we outshine our American EC counterparts by far in that regard!
I have to recuse myself.
Russophilism was a common thread in east Slovakia and Zakarpatta (both then part of the dual empire of Austria and Hungary) dating back to the mid 19th century. Fr. Alex Duchnovych - a part ethnic Russian and a Greek Catholic priest was the voice of the Rusyn national movement in the mid 19th century and was something of a panslavist. Given the hatred of the Magyar oppression near the end of their rule, the Tsarists had many agents working both in the region and in America fueling anti-Magyar politics and using the religious turmoil to their advantage by funding Orthodox missions and construction in America as well as in Europe at the time. For their efforts, the OCA has much for which to be thankful to this day.

WW1 and the Revolution put a lid on some of that and the infusion of Russian funding, but the resettlement of Russian monks and hierarchs to Ladimirova in Slovakia after the civil war did put a Russian spiritual presence in the lands. Many wonderful monks came to Orthoodxy from the region and one became the saintly and honored +Laurus, the leader of ROCOR who led the reunion with the MP some years ago. After the war, many Rusyns willingly relocated to areas of Ukraine, Siberia and the Crimea to substitute for ethnic Germans and other non-slavs who went - well somewhere bad I suppose.

When the Iron Curtain collapsed many of these former Czecho-Slovaks, including a large contingent of my family came back to Slovakia from the former USSR to reunite with their family members who remained in Slovakia or who were relocated to Moravia to replace the Germans following the war. Most of the returnees were fully Orthodox by now and have adapted to their new settings - hence growth within the Orthodox Church there and the reason for why the Orthodox Church in Slovakia has more in common with the OCA these days than with either the  ACROD or the UOC.

This history is why I have a second cousin who is a Greek Catholic priest in Plsen, Czech republic and another who is a graduate seminarian and part of the growing Orthodox community in southern Poland, another who is a Sister Servant of Mary nun in Rome, a Greek Catholic cantor in east Slovakia, an Orthodox seminarian in America etc.....  So when I seem annoying for reminding all of you that the situation there is nuanced and not all that clear and complicated its because - well, because it's complicated! At least we all sort of get along these days!
 

ialmisry

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ialmisry said:
I forgot the maps:

Its deaneries are here, on an interactive map of sorts:
http://www.m-eparchy.org.ua/blagochinnya/blagochinnya-mukachivskoyi-pravoslavnoyi-eparhiyi.html

No such deanary map
For comparison, the oblasts of Ukraine

I'm curious as to why Odessa, Mykolaiv and Kharkhiv only have one diocese each.
 

kijabeboy03

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"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.
 

Schultz

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kijabeboy03 said:
"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.
Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.
 

podkarpatska

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Schultz said:
kijabeboy03 said:
"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.
Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.
We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.
 

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podkarpatska said:
Schultz said:
kijabeboy03 said:
"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.
Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.
We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.
Indeed, hence my comment that the expulsion of the Roman missionaries was more due to political forces than anything else.  Interestingly, their feast day was not added to the universal Roman calendar until the late 19th century.
 

podkarpatska

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Schultz said:
podkarpatska said:
Schultz said:
kijabeboy03 said:
"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.
Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.
We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.
Indeed, hence my comment that the expulsion of the Roman missionaries was more due to political forces than anything else.  Interestingly, their feast day was not added to the universal Roman calendar until the late 19th century.
Although they certainly were commemorated locally by the Czechs and the Slovaks long before that time.
 

ialmisry

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podkarpatska said:
Schultz said:
kijabeboy03 said:
"In fact, their numbers were drew the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia from WRO (to which St. Gorazd had been consecrated as bishop of Moravia and Silesia) back into the Eastern Rite first planted by SS. Cyril and Methodius in Moravia."

Didn't Sts. Cyril and Methodius labor under Rome and plant Roman Rite communities? I was under the impression that that is where the Slavonic translations of the old Mass (the "Glagolitic Mass") used in the northwestern Balkans through the 19th century came from.

Nope.  The king of Greater Moravia, Rastislav, expelled Roman missionaries (in an effort to assert political independence from the Frankish king whose assistance largely set him up in the first place) and turned to the Emperor and Patriarch in Constantinople for political and spiritual support, respectively.

They did devise the Glagolitic alphabet, though, which was then used to write down the Roman Rite Mass in the native tongues where it was used.
We have to keep in mind that the Missionary Saints were representing the undivided church in the 9th century. Constantinople had been decimated by the iconoclast struggles over the previous centuries and the onslaught of the Islamic forces was beginning to take its toll.....The Franks had their own plans and we know how history worked out.... Both the Latin Slavs and the Eastern ones may rightfully claim and honor the Saintly brothers for their efforts in bringing the Gospel to their lands. (Although they didn't really directly influence Rus. Vladimir was later.
Once finally expelled in suppressed by the Dukes of Bohemia (1172), they went to Kiev.  When the Slavonic monks of Sazava, Prague (f. 1032) were expelled earlier (1057, they returned to Bohemia 5 years later) from Bohemia after the Vatican's schism, they took refuge in Hungary, in Orthodox monastery at Visegrad, on the Danube across from Slovakia, founded by King Andrew I of Hungary, who was baptized at Kiev and married St. Vladimir's granddaughter.  He also founded a monastery at Tihany, his burial place, deep in Hungary, for Rus' monks.  Archaelogy has uncovered remains of St. Methodius' mission at Przemyshl/Peremyshl, which enters history when Nestor records St. Vladimir taking it from Poland in 981.  The saint's disciple, St. Gorazd the Moravian, lingered on next door in Cracow and Little Poland, evangelized by St. Methodius himself according to his Vita, after the expulsion from Moravia.
 

Alpo

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Btw, does anyone know what's their policy on confession before communing and what is their liturgical language?  I'm visiting Prague on May and it would be nice to attend some service there.
 

ialmisry

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podkarpatska said:
Michał Kalina said:
I've attended a baptism in Prague and it was in Czech.
In Slovakia, the predominant liturgical language appears to be Slavonic although that is not uniform.
That is what I remember in Bratislava, but that was just before communism fell.
 

mike

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When I was in Eastern Slovakia it indeed was in Church Slavonic but AFAIR correctly in Prague services are in vernacular Czech.
 

podkarpatska

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Michał Kalina said:
When I was in Eastern Slovakia it indeed was in Church Slavonic but AFAIR correctly in Prague services are in vernacular Czech.
I have heard that it is a 'tactical' decision not to use Slovak or Rusyn vernacular in that the Greek Catholics in Slovakia, unlike their cousins in Transcarpathia, have replaced the Slavonic. Personally I think that is shortsighted as both of us here in the states (Orthodox and Greek Catholic) have used English for almost a generation and a half, but that's what I understand to be the case there.
 

Alpo

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Let's play an armchair sociologist instead of an armchair theologian for a change. :police:

podkarpatska said:
Michał Kalina said:
When I was in Eastern Slovakia it indeed was in Church Slavonic but AFAIR correctly in Prague services are in vernacular Czech.
I have heard that it is a 'tactical' decision not to use Slovak or Rusyn vernacular in that the Greek Catholics in Slovakia, unlike their cousins in Transcarpathia, have replaced the Slavonic. Personally I think that is shortsighted as both of us here in the states (Orthodox and Greek Catholic) have used English for almost a generation and a half, but that's what I understand to be the case there.
I don't know anything about these people but Could it be some kind East-West thing aka the Czech won't use Slavonic since it's too Eastern European/Russian whereas the Slovaks are self-admittedly Eastern?
 

mike

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IMO maybe the reason is that in Slovakia there are cradles mostly that are used to Church Slavonic, and in the Czech Republic there are mostly converts (direct and their descendants) and immigrants.
 
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