• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Help finding particular Theotokos canon

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
Using the rubrics from "The Order of Divine Servies" as a guide:
For Polyeleos services
...
Then the canons:
Weekdays in all temples and Saturdays in a temple of a saint

Six troparia (including the irmos, twice) from the canon of Supplication to the Theotokos  or the canon to the Theotokos provided in the Menaion.
Four troparia from the first canon in the Menaion *
Four troparia from the second canon in the Menaion *
* If there be only one canon in the Menaion, as is sometimes the case, we read eight troparia from that canon. ...
And encountering this note in the Menaion:
The Canon to the Theotokos, in Tone IV, with six troparia, including the
Irmos; the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"
I'm sure sure what canon this is or where to find it, I am used to using the Supplicatory Canon, or having another canon printed in the Menaion.
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
Agabus said:
I wonder if what you find on page 179 of this is what you're looking for.
Yes, this is the service it is for, however, this is the canon for the feast itself, there should be an introductory canon. As you see it says "6 troparia," not 14, which is what it would be if all troparia came from this canon.  Polyeleos should have an introductory canon with 6, then either 4 and 4, or 8.
 

Cavaradossi

Archon
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
2,161
Reaction score
160
Points
63
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
AANA
Bob2 said:
Using the rubrics from "The Order of Divine Servies" as a guide:
For Polyeleos services
...
Then the canons:
Weekdays in all temples and Saturdays in a temple of a saint

Six troparia (including the irmos, twice) from the canon of Supplication to the Theotokos  or the canon to the Theotokos provided in the Menaion.
Four troparia from the first canon in the Menaion *
Four troparia from the second canon in the Menaion *
* If there be only one canon in the Menaion, as is sometimes the case, we read eight troparia from that canon. ...
And encountering this note in the Menaion:
The Canon to the Theotokos, in Tone IV, with six troparia, including the
Irmos; the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"
I'm sure sure what canon this is or where to find it, I am used to using the Supplicatory Canon, or having another canon printed in the Menaion.
What day in the menaion are you looking at?
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
Cavaradossi said:
Bob2 said:
Using the rubrics from "The Order of Divine Servies" as a guide:
For Polyeleos services
...
Then the canons:
Weekdays in all temples and Saturdays in a temple of a saint

Six troparia (including the irmos, twice) from the canon of Supplication to the Theotokos  or the canon to the Theotokos provided in the Menaion.
Four troparia from the first canon in the Menaion *
Four troparia from the second canon in the Menaion *
* If there be only one canon in the Menaion, as is sometimes the case, we read eight troparia from that canon. ...
And encountering this note in the Menaion:
The Canon to the Theotokos, in Tone IV, with six troparia, including the
Irmos; the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"
I'm sure sure what canon this is or where to find it, I am used to using the Supplicatory Canon, or having another canon printed in the Menaion.
What day in the menaion are you looking at?
In the Menaion it is a September 8th, which is also Nativity of the Theotokos, so that service takes precedence on that date. On the Calendar commemoration of the icon is November 27th coming up in about a week.

I've received answers of:1) only do this canon, and do it "on 8" (Irmois 2x, +6 troparia) since the canon for the feast is already a canon to the Theotokos, and 2) another told me to use the Theotokos canon from the Sunday of the leaving Tone.

 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
It is unclear to me because it seems to the note in the Menaion is referring to a specific canon, and perhaps it is, and it is referring to the canon for the feast, but it seems odd to me that such a different translations are used essentially right next to each other if that is the case. Also I was thinking it had to equal 14.

does "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"= the bolded?

Irmos: I shall open my mouth...

Disdain not my lowliness, O Theotokos, and compensate for my weakness;
sanctify my heart and mind, and open thou my lips, that I may make bold to
offer thee a hymn.
 

Cavaradossi

Archon
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
2,161
Reaction score
160
Points
63
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
AANA
Bob2 said:
It is unclear to me because it seems to the note in the Menaion is referring to a specific canon, and perhaps it is, and it is referring to the canon for the feast, but it seems odd to me that such a different translations are used essentially right next to each other if that is the case. Also I was thinking it had to equal 14.

does "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"= the bolded?

Irmos: I shall open my mouth...

Disdain not my lowliness, O Theotokos, and compensate for my weakness;
sanctify my heart and mind, and open thou my lips, that I may make bold to
offer thee a hymn.
That doesn't seem right. The menaion ought to have two canons for September 8th, one with starting with the heirmos "Come O ye peoples, let us sing a song to Christ God," and another starting with the heirmos, "to him who shattered the enemies with his arm." Neither of them starts with the heirmos "I shall open my mouth," to my knowledge.
 

WPM

Taxiarches
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
7,775
Reaction score
14
Points
0
Age
39
Faith
Ethiopian Jew
Canon to the Guardian Angel? ...
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
Cavaradossi said:
That doesn't seem right. The menaion ought to have two canons for September 8th, one with starting with the heirmos "Come O ye peoples, let us sing a song to Christ God," and another starting with the heirmos, "to him who shattered the enemies with his arm." Neither of them starts with the heirmos "I shall open my mouth," to my knowledge.
You are looking at the Menaion service the Nativity of the Theotokos, sometimes there is more than Menaion service for the same day, this is an additional one to the Icon.
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
Mor Ephrem said:
What service are you trying to plan?
Vespers and Matins for the Kursk Root Icon, Sat Nov 27th
 

CarolS

Elder
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
272
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church
In the November Menaion by St. John of Kronstadt Press, for the Kursk Icon feast on Nov. 27th, there is only one canon which has the Irmos: "I will open my mouth...". If there was to be another canon preceding this, you would see it mentioned in the rubrics in this service, but the rubrics in the service say only: "The Canon to the Theotokos, the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos", in Tone 4"

You will find that any service to the Theotokos has more in common with rubrics for a Great Feast of the Theotokos on a weekday, rather than the rules for a saint.

For comparison, in the SJKP Menaion, the Polyeleos service to Apostle Philip (Nov 14) when it is served on a weekday, the rubrics given with the canon specify:
Canon to the Theotokos (the Paraclysis), with 6 troparia, including the Irmos, and that of the apostle, with 8 troparia [... etc.]  This is the way a saint's service (other than the Theotokos) is done on a weekday, which corresponds with the general rules for a Polyeleos rank service in "The Order of Divine Services".





 

MalpanaGiwargis

High Elder
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Messages
700
Reaction score
51
Points
28
Location
Atlanta, GA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
ACROD
Bob2 said:
It is unclear to me because it seems to the note in the Menaion is referring to a specific canon, and perhaps it is, and it is referring to the canon for the feast, but it seems odd to me that such a different translations are used essentially right next to each other if that is the case. Also I was thinking it had to equal 14.

does "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos"= the bolded?

Irmos: I shall open my mouth...

Disdain not my lowliness, O Theotokos, and compensate for my weakness;
sanctify my heart and mind, and open thou my lips, that I may make bold to
offer thee a hymn.
The "I dare to offer..." is the acrostic, though, right, not a part of the troparia? It would be the first letter of each troparion that spells out "I dare to offer..." unless I'm completely mistaken.

This Slavonic Menaion gives two canons on November 27th itself. I don't know enough Slavonic to recognize the canon.
 

CarolS

Elder
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
272
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church
Yes. The acrostic is an interesting literary device in the original Greek, but translations rarely can reproduce this in with 1st letter of each troparion. The acrostic verse would not be read aloud, however, I like seeing them -- gives an interesting insight to the original hymnographer and reminds me to pray to them.

I recall the Akathist to the Theotokos translated at Holy Transfiguration Monastery at Brookline where the translator tried to preserve the acrostic and so that the 17th section corresponding to the English letter "Q" starts with "Quires of angels..."
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
CarolS said:
In the November Menaion by St. John of Kronstadt Press, for the Kursk Icon feast on Nov. 27th, there is only one canon which has the Irmos: "I will open my mouth...". If there was to be another canon preceding this, you would see it mentioned in the rubrics in this service, but the rubrics in the service say only: "The Canon to the Theotokos, the acrostic whereof is: "I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos", in Tone 4"

You will find that any service to the Theotokos has more in common with rubrics for a Great Feast of the Theotokos on a weekday, rather than the rules for a saint.

For comparison, in the SJKP Menaion, the Polyeleos service to Apostle Philip (Nov 14) when it is served on a weekday, the rubrics given with the canon specify:
Canon to the Theotokos (the Paraclysis), with 6 troparia, including the Irmos, and that of the apostle, with 8 troparia [... etc.]  This is the way a saint's service (other than the Theotokos) is done on a weekday, which corresponds with the general rules for a Polyeleos rank service in "The Order of Divine Services".
This is what I read and I think you're correct it will be just this canon, it has no preceding Theotokos Canon, because it already is one. But it was not clear to me since the note uses a different translation than the text for the first troparion
"I dare to offer thee praise, O Theotokos" vs "that I may make bold to offer thee a hymn."

I was assuming it referred to some other specific and common canon to the Theotokos.

Perhaps someone can check a Slavonic Menaion to see if note clearly refers to the text in the that first troparion
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
MalpanaGiwargis said:
The "I dare to offer..." is the acrostic, though, right, not a part of the troparia? It would be the first letter of each troparion that spells out "I dare to offer..." unless I'm completely mistaken.

This Slavonic Menaion gives two canons on November 27th itself. I don't know enough Slavonic to recognize the canon.
I am guessing this the service to St James the Persian, not the Kursk Root service
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
CarolS said:
Yes. The acrostic is an interesting literary device in the original Greek, but translations rarely can reproduce this in with 1st letter of each troparion. The acrostic verse would not be read aloud, however, I like seeing them -- gives an interesting insight to the original hymnographer and reminds me to pray to them.

I recall the Akathist to the Theotokos translated at Holy Transfiguration Monastery at Brookline where the translator tried to preserve the acrostic and so that the 17th section corresponding to the English letter "Q" starts with "Quires of angels..."
Very interesting, thank you
 

CarolS

Elder
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
272
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church
Bob2 said:
MalpanaGiwargis said:
The "I dare to offer..." is the acrostic, though, right, not a part of the troparia? It would be the first letter of each troparion that spells out "I dare to offer..." unless I'm completely mistaken.

This Slavonic Menaion gives two canons on November 27th itself. I don't know enough Slavonic to recognize the canon.
I am guessing this the service to St James the Persian, not the Kursk Root service
No, actually that service is for "The Icon of the Sign" i.e. Kursk Root Icon, though there is a totally different service which is popular in ROCOR, and the English of this is found in the SJKP menaion.  The http://www.st-sergius.org site give 3 possible services for this day.
 

Dominika

Merarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
8,293
Reaction score
626
Points
113
Age
30
Location
Poland
Website
www.youtube.com
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Antiochian Patriarchate/POC
CarolS said:
Yes. The acrostic is an interesting literary device in the original Greek, but translations rarely can reproduce this in with 1st letter of each troparion. The acrostic verse would not be read aloud, however, I like seeing them -- gives an interesting insight to the original hymnographer and reminds me to pray to them.
I've heard acrostich read (between troparions or the odes, don't remember now) in Greek for Palm Sunday in my parish (while the rest of the service is done in Church Slavonic). I think there have been also other occassions with the acrostic being read aloud.

Bob2 said:
Perhaps someone can check a Slavonic Menaion to see if note clearly refers to the text in the that first troparion
Himorses of the 1st canon 2 times; troparions in the two [canons] 12. The 1st canon is written by hieromonk Pachomius Loghotete,
its acrostic is "Give me a word, oh Word of God, to exalt the One that has given birth to You".
 

Bob2

High Elder
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
848
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Faith
Orthodox
Dominika said:
Bob2 said:
Perhaps someone can check a Slavonic Menaion to see if note clearly refers to the text in the that first troparion
Himorses of the 1st canon 2 times; troparions in the two [canons] 12. The 1st canon is written by hieromonk Pachomius Loghotete,
its acrostic is "Give me a word, oh Word of God, to exalt the One that has given birth to You".

Thank you, interesting, as Carol noted there appears to be more than one Menaion service for the Icon:
CarolS said:
No, actually that service is for "The Icon of the Sign" i.e. Kursk Root Icon, though there is a totally different service which is popular in ROCOR, and the English of this is found in the SJKP menaion. The http://www.st-sergius.org site give 3 possible services for this day.
The Menaion service I have has only one canon. Though translation is slightly different it is the same format and content as what Agabus linked to in Reply #1.  Either way it seems clear to me know that only the canon in the Menaion will used, and because I will be abbreviating (so as not repeat troparia) it is only hypothetical at this point whether it is really 14 or 8.
 
Top