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Heterodox images

Alpo

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I have to agree with LBK on this. Most examples in this threads are not statues in the sense that RCs have. Aside from the one of WR St. Michael's the picture below are the only examples of actual Orthodox statues that I've seen.



Holy Trinity church, Helsinki.
 

LizaSymonenko

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The difference here is that the angel statues above the iconostas are decorative, and not meant to be venerated.

The RC carry their statues in procession around the church and down the streets, as Orthodox do with our icons.
 

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Alpo said:
I have to agree with LBK on this. Most examples in this threads are not statues in the sense that RCs have.
No one is arguing that statues have the same sort of proliferation in the EO as in the RCC. Where we differ with LBK is why.

It is the same as when the untaught say: "We don't use musical instruments in Orthodoxy because nothing is more beautiful than the human voice." They are taking a complex historical coincident and tacking on an ad hoc theological justification for it late in the game.
 

PeterTheAleut

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LizaSymonenko said:
Antonis said:
Iconodule said:
LBK rehashes the same arguments against statues again and again. The weakness of her reasoning is borne out  in this thread among others: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,55949.0.html
The foundations of these arguments are often no older than the 20th century and do not have Patristic basis.
I'm not so sure about that.

The whole iconoclasm thing was in the 8th century, no?  We won back the use of icons...but, nowhere were statues mentioned.  On the Sunday of Orthodoxy (first Sunday of Great Lent) we stand in church reverently holding icons, not statues.

The oldest surviving Orthodox churches reveal bits and pieces of icons on their walls, either painted, or mosaics.  Even the catacombs still have ancient simple icons etched/painted on their walls.  No statues, if they existed, survive.

You would think that if the ancient churches utilized statues, they would still exist.  Roman Catholic ones do....where are the Orthodox statues of old?  Not in any museum that I have visited.

Makes one ponder the history of statues used in Orthodox churches, doesn't it?
You do realize how weak the argument from silence is? It may make a good foundation for our understanding of why we don't have statues in our churches (because we never have), but it can hardly be used as any justification for a dogmatic opposition to statues.
 

LizaSymonenko

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PeterTheAleut said:
LizaSymonenko said:
Antonis said:
Iconodule said:
LBK rehashes the same arguments against statues again and again. The weakness of her reasoning is borne out  in this thread among others: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,55949.0.html
The foundations of these arguments are often no older than the 20th century and do not have Patristic basis.
I'm not so sure about that.

The whole iconoclasm thing was in the 8th century, no?  We won back the use of icons...but, nowhere were statues mentioned.  On the Sunday of Orthodoxy (first Sunday of Great Lent) we stand in church reverently holding icons, not statues.

The oldest surviving Orthodox churches reveal bits and pieces of icons on their walls, either painted, or mosaics.  Even the catacombs still have ancient simple icons etched/painted on their walls.  No statues, if they existed, survive.

You would think that if the ancient churches utilized statues, they would still exist.  Roman Catholic ones do....where are the Orthodox statues of old?  Not in any museum that I have visited.

Makes one ponder the history of statues used in Orthodox churches, doesn't it?
You do realize how weak the argument from silence is? It may make a good foundation for our understanding of why we don't have statues in our churches (because we never have), but it can hardly be used as any justification for a dogmatic opposition to statues.
Well...I have never studied dogma and therefore, am merely commenting from my limited knowledge on these things.  ;)

I'm not all that opposed to statuary....it is just that from my experience I've not seen it used in Orthodox churches anywhere, and therefore, I will oppose their use, unless I am convinced otherwise.  ;)

...and secondly...Christ left us with an "icon" of His image (2-D)...not a statue.    :angel:

 

Asteriktos

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LizaSymonenko said:
...and secondly...Christ left us with an "icon" of His image (2-D)...not a statue.    :angel:
But humans are the icons of the image of God, that image being Jesus Christ...
 

Alpo

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NicholasMyra said:
Alpo said:
I have to agree with LBK on this. Most examples in this threads are not statues in the sense that RCs have.
No one is arguing that statues have the same sort of proliferation in the EO as in the RCC. Where we differ with LBK is why.

It is the same as when the untaught say: "We don't use musical instruments in Orthodoxy because nothing is more beautiful than the human voice." They are taking a complex historical coincident and tacking on an ad hoc theological justification for it late in the game.
It's as simplistic to say that "Hey, we have this online pic of something that looks like a bas-relief so let's add this cute baby Jesus into our altar".  ;)

I can't say pretty much anything on why we don't have statues but I can say that a few online pics is a poor argument for having them.
 

Asteriktos

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Alpo said:
I can't say pretty much anything on why we don't have statues but I can say that a few online pics is a poor argument for having them.
How about the most famous defender of icons in Church history mentioning their use and defending them? ;)
 

Alpo

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Asteriktos said:
Alpo said:
I can't say pretty much anything on why we don't have statues but I can say that a few online pics is a poor argument for having them.
How about the most famous defender of icons in Church history mentioning their use and defending them? ;)
Well good for him. :p Like I said, I don't really have beef in this fight other than silly arguments being silly.
 

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Theophania said:
Do WRO ever have statues in their churches?
We do. My parish has a shrine to Our Lady of Walsingham. I kiss her feet, light candles before her, and otherwise treat it like I would the icons that are present as well.
 

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Its a personal thing.  If you want to pray before a stature of the Blessed Virgin I can see no real reason not to pray.... geeze.
 
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