Holy Community Cancels Tsipras/EP Trip to Mt Athos

Alpo

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Yet another Orthodox-related ethnic or political quibble which is beyond parody.
 

Porter ODoran

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augustin717 said:
Porter ODoran said:
Iconodule said:
Actually he's in his second term as PM.

Now, can someone explain this a little? Is it simply because he's an atheist and has tried to reduce Orthodox influence in Greece?
I hope by your choice of "simply" you're not hoping to minimize the enormity of such acts.
enormity of what ? The proxy war Athos is waging against the EP?
Nonsense.
 

Antonis

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Iconodule said:
Actually he's in his second term as PM.

Now, can someone explain this a little? Is it simply because he's an atheist and has tried to reduce Orthodox influence in Greece?
The breadth of these attempts is rather wide and pernicious. Also insulting is his behavior during divine services he finds himself at, where he openly laughs and mocks the rites. This behavior extends to public comment, as well.

I'm sure many would fault the monks for a lack of charity, and I would agree if he were an earnest seeker. But as Christians we have to have a respect for the sacred, and not expose holy things to be mocked or disrespected.
 

Antonis

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It is also worth noting that our saintly hierarchs and ascetics did not court impious rulers, but called them to repentance, an obvious case being Chrysostom and Eudoxia.
 

augustin717

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Antonis said:
Iconodule said:
Actually he's in his second term as PM.

Now, can someone explain this a little? Is it simply because he's an atheist and has tried to reduce Orthodox influence in Greece?
The breadth of these attempts is rather wide and pernicious. Also insulting is his behavior during divine services he finds himself at, where he openly laughs and mocks the rites. This behavior extends to public comment, as well.

I'm sure many would fault the monks for a lack of charity, and I would agree if he were an earnest seeker. But as Christians we have to have a respect for the sacred, and not expose holy things to be mocked or disrespected.
he's been to Jerusalem a few times and doesn't seem he was mocking the rites. Plus Athos can't be holier than the Church of the Resurrection.
 

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augustin717 said:
Antonis said:
Iconodule said:
Actually he's in his second term as PM.

Now, can someone explain this a little? Is it simply because he's an atheist and has tried to reduce Orthodox influence in Greece?
The breadth of these attempts is rather wide and pernicious. Also insulting is his behavior during divine services he finds himself at, where he openly laughs and mocks the rites. This behavior extends to public comment, as well.

I'm sure many would fault the monks for a lack of charity, and I would agree if he were an earnest seeker. But as Christians we have to have a respect for the sacred, and not expose holy things to be mocked or disrespected.
he's been to Jerusalem a few times and doesn't seem he was mocking the rites. Plus Athos can't be holier than the Church of the Resurrection.
Obviously the subject is just humorous to someone who takes as foregone the death of Christianity in eastern Europe. But imagine for a moment the spiritual battle there is worth fighting, still far from foregone, demands the efforts of good men. What would you do as an Athonite or priest?
 

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I do not think they brought another anyone closer to Christ by their lack of hospitality. And btw, they could have used the occasion of his visit to discuss differences in opinion. Even if Tsipras was horrible, didn't Moses go to Pharaoh, St. John the Baptist to Herod and Metropolian Elias of Antioch to Stalin? There would at least have been a chance of explaining their concerns in person. Now they surely missed an opportunity to do that. And I don't see what their behaviour has to do with Orthodox tradition. Wasn't Abraham's hospitality what made him worthy to meet the Holy Trinity even before the Incarnation of our Lord? These monks have brought shame on our beloved Patriarch Bartholomew and on the whole Church.
 

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Gorazd said:
I do not think they brought another anyone closer to Christ by their lack of hospitality. And btw, they could have used the occasion of his visit to discuss differences in opinion. Even if Tsipras was horrible, didn't Moses go to Pharaoh, St. John the Baptist to Herod and Metropolian Elias of Antioch to Stalin? There would at least have been a chance of explaining their concerns in person. Now they surely missed an opportunity to do that. And I don't see what their behaviour has to do with Orthodox tradition. Wasn't Abraham's hospitality what made him worthy to meet the Holy Trinity even before the Incarnation of our Lord? These monks have brought shame on our beloved Patriarch Bartholomew and on the whole Church.
This post may be even more dramatic than the "Antichrists, leave Mount Athos" black flags flown at Docheiariou. 
 

Antonis

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Gorazd said:
I do not think they brought another anyone closer to Christ by their lack of hospitality. And btw, they could have used the occasion of his visit to discuss differences in opinion. Even if Tsipras was horrible, didn't Moses go to Pharaoh, St. John the Baptist to Herod and Metropolian Elias of Antioch to Stalin? There would at least have been a chance of explaining their concerns in person. Now they surely missed an opportunity to do that. And I don't see what their behaviour has to do with Orthodox tradition. Wasn't Abraham's hospitality what made him worthy to meet the Holy Trinity even before the Incarnation of our Lord? These monks have brought shame on our beloved Patriarch Bartholomew and on the whole Church.
And what did Moses say to Pharaoh and John the Baptist to Herod?

What can be said to Tsipras has already been said, "And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matt. 10:14-15)

This standard has been the Orthodox standard since Christ said it, from the Apostles, to the latter Councils, to Patriarch Jeremias and the Lutherans, to the Letter of the Eastern Patriarchs, till today. Understandably, in the face of modern ecumenism as we know it, we can sometimes forget that.

Far from being the shame of the Patriarch, Athos has been one of the only fonts of sanctity under his jurisdiction, and let the observer understand why.
 
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The way our monks are talked about on here is disgusting,  as if they are evil or somthing. Is this still a Orthodox site, or a reddit site for closet atheists,  and agnostics.
 

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Antonis said:
What can be said to Tsipras has already been said
Well then they should say it again. But As Father Thomas Hopko, of blessed memory used to phrase it, they should be "speaking truth in love".
Even St. Mark of Ephesus went to Florence. Insisting on the Orthodox position is Orthodox. Refusing even to talk is not Orthodox. Absolutely not.

Ecumenism is wrong, it means giving up Orthodoxy to please the world. Anti-ecumenism is just as wrong, because it is the refusal to even confront the world, but to retreat into one's shell like a snail.

Antonis said:
Far from being the shame of the Patriarch, Athos has been one of the only fonts of sanctity under his jurisdiction, and let the observer understand why.
So much sanctity that they have a schism there? Seriously, they can say strong words, but can they actually accomplish something? For a long time, they have been unable to solve the Esphigmenou problem... Let them solve this plank in their own eye before insulting Tsipras. And I am not defending Tsipras here, I am just ashamed of the behaviour of the "holy gerontes"...


seekeroftruth777 said:
The way our monks are talked about on here is disgusting,  as if they are evil or somthing. Is this still a Orthodox site, or a reddit site for closet atheists,  and agnostics.
What does this have to do with agnosticism or atheism, when I am using an argument from Holy Tradition, based on Prophets and Saints? Logic anyone?
 

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I had no idea that he actually mocks people during Orthodox services. That does change my opinion somewhat. No person or group should have to take that kind of abuse lying down.
 

Gorazd

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Volnutt said:
I had no idea that he actually mocks people during Orthodox services.
Because he doesn't. It's an unproven claim. And a very serious one. Nobody should make such allegations without presenting clear proof.
 

augustin717

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Gorazd said:
Volnutt said:
I had no idea that he actually mocks people during Orthodox services.
Because he doesn't. It's an unproven claim. And a very serious one. Nobody should make such allegations without presenting clear proof.
if you check JP FB page you'll see Tsipras visiting and attending services there able to refrain from his supposedly mocking the services as they go compulsion.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Gorazd said:
Insisting on the Orthodox position is Orthodox. Refusing even to talk is not Orthodox. Absolutely not.
II John

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. 10 If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; 11 for he who greets him shares his wicked work.
^"Absolutely not Orthodox".

So much sanctity that they have a schism there? Seriously, they can say strong words, but can they actually accomplish something? For a long time, they have been unable to solve the Esphigmenou problem... Let them solve this plank in their own eye before insulting Tsipras. And I am not defending Tsipras here, I am just ashamed of the behaviour of the "holy gerontes"...
So maybe they shouldn't take any visitors until they solve their Esphigmenou problem.  After all, the saying is "first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye", not "take the log out of your own eye while taking the speck out of your brother's eye because who cares if you can see clearly, we are running out of time and at least you tried". 

What does this have to do with agnosticism or atheism, when I am using an argument from Holy Tradition, based on Prophets and Saints? Logic anyone?
No, you're not.  You're cherry-picking, which, ironically, is what many who oppose your argument do.  Discerning and finding the middle path is much more difficult. 
 

Opus118

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I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians*. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

*April 2, 2013 PPP poll
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_National_ConspiracyTheories_040213.pdf


 

Iconodule

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Opus118 said:
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians*. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

*April 2, 2013 PPP poll
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_National_ConspiracyTheories_040213.pdf
44% of voters believe the Bush administration intentionally misled the public about weapons of mass destruction to promote the Iraq War

How is this a conspiracy theory? More than one official has confirmed it.
 

ialmisry

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Iconodule said:
Opus118 said:
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians*. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

*April 2, 2013 PPP poll
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_National_ConspiracyTheories_040213.pdf
44% of voters believe the Bush administration intentionally misled the public about weapons of mass destruction to promote the Iraq War

How is this a conspiracy theory? More than one official has confirmed it.
Sorry
 

Alpha60

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Antonis said:
Iconodule said:
Actually he's in his second term as PM.

Now, can someone explain this a little? Is it simply because he's an atheist and has tried to reduce Orthodox influence in Greece?
The breadth of these attempts is rather wide and pernicious. Also insulting is his behavior during divine services he finds himself at, where he openly laughs and mocks the rites. This behavior extends to public comment, as well.

I'm sure many would fault the monks for a lack of charity, and I would agree if he were an earnest seeker. But as Christians we have to have a respect for the sacred, and not expose holy things to be mocked or disrespected.
Can you provide any links documenting his mocking of the services and anti-Orthodox behavior?  Because it sounds to me like the monks did the right thing.

The monastic imperative to hospitality does not extend to heretics and does not countermand Matthew 10:14-15, etc.,  2 John 7-11, or Galatians 1:8.

I once conversed with a Melkite "vagante monk" who abused Elder Ephrem and his monastery in Arizona for refusing to admit the Melkite bishop, who apparently popped up unexpected.  He seemed incapable of understanding that the instructions of the early monks to receive every visitor as though they are Jesus Christ does not extend to those the abbot considers to be anti-Christs or to those who are, as determined by the abbot, preaching another Gospel.  And indeed, monasteries have always refused admission to those sorts.

Have you ever heard of Mormon missionaries openly travelling to and spreading the Book of Mormon on Mount Athos?

If someone who has openly mocked the faith or set himself up in opposition to it wants to go to Mount Athos, first they should go to their local parish to, in the case a baptized Orthodox, repent and be rechrismated, or otherwise repent and be accepted as a catechumen.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
II John

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. 10 If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; 11 for he who greets him shares his wicked work.
^"Absolutely not Orthodox".
Read in context. That means you should not let heretics preach in your houses (there were house churches back then). It's not about politicians.

And btw, Athos does accept visits of non-Orthodox religious leaders. German Hindu yoga guru Sukadev Volker Bretz visited, for example.
 
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