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Holy Water

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Glory to Jesus Christ!

At Theophany I only took two small bottles of Holy Water and I am beginning to run low. If I were to mix some of the remaining  Holy Water with un- blessed water would that water then be Holy Water?

Sorry if this has been asked before or sounds legalistic(sometimes the Latin in me just comes out  ;) )

In Christ,
Seraphim(David)
 

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Altar Server said:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

At Theophany I only took two small bottles of Holy Water and I am beginning to run low. If I were to mix some of the remaining  Holy Water with un- blessed water would that water then be Holy Water?

Sorry if this has been asked before or sounds legalistic(sometimes the Latin in me just comes out  ;) )

In Christ,
Seraphim(David)
I think that would be fine... Some people add a little holy water when cooking, so I don't see that it'd be effected by mixing with plain old water. I could be wrong though...
 

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Yes, that is absolutely fine.

If you don't want to do that...come on over...I've got a few extra jars!  :)

We fill extra jars for our elderly and shut-ins and the kids deliver them.  We filled a few too many.
 

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What I've been taught is that, yes, this is not only acceptable but standard.

One time, it was explained to me in the following way:

Does Christ not sanctify all of the Jordan by stepping in one spot? Does Christ not redeem all of humanity, being Himself but one human person? God cannot be made unholy, He can only make that which he is in contact with holy as well. Christ blesses and sanctifies the waters of theophany in the Jordan, and His blessing upon holy water at Theophany does the same. Therefore, does mixing that blessed water with unblessed water make the result half-holy? Of course not. One cannot delute holiness. Christ sanctifies all, making that which is united with him holy. In the same way, holy water mixed with unblessed water sanctifies that which it touches with that same blessing, making it all fully blessed and holy.

I've found this to be a beautiful and theologically rich understanding of the redemption of creation.
 

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I'm confused, if I ran out, I would just get more the next time I was in church.  Do not all Orthodox Churches have the Holy Water available year round?  I believe all the parishes that I've belonged to do.
 

serb1389

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AWR said:
I'm confused, if I ran out, I would just get more the next time I was in church.  Do not all Orthodox Churches have the Holy Water available year round?  I believe all the parishes that I've belonged to do.
Unfortunately not all orthodox churches hold to this tradition.
 

serb1389

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Benjamin the Red said:
What I've been taught is that, yes, this is not only acceptable but standard.

One time, it was explained to me in the following way:

Does Christ not sanctify all of the Jordan by stepping in one spot? Does Christ not redeem all of humanity, being Himself but one human person? God cannot be made unholy, He can only make that which he is in contact with holy as well. Christ blesses and sanctifies the waters of theophany in the Jordan, and His blessing upon holy water at Theophany does the same. Therefore, does mixing that blessed water with unblessed water make the result half-holy? Of course not. One cannot delute holiness. Christ sanctifies all, making that which is united with him holy. In the same way, holy water mixed with unblessed water sanctifies that which it touches with that same blessing, making it all fully blessed and holy.

I've found this to be a beautiful and theologically rich understanding of the redemption of creation.
We discussed this topic with quite a bit of detail before.  I think you will find that it's a little more "complicated" than what you wrote:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19202.0.html
 

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serb1389 said:
Benjamin the Red said:
What I've been taught is that, yes, this is not only acceptable but standard.

One time, it was explained to me in the following way:

Does Christ not sanctify all of the Jordan by stepping in one spot? Does Christ not redeem all of humanity, being Himself but one human person? God cannot be made unholy, He can only make that which he is in contact with holy as well. Christ blesses and sanctifies the waters of theophany in the Jordan, and His blessing upon holy water at Theophany does the same. Therefore, does mixing that blessed water with unblessed water make the result half-holy? Of course not. One cannot delute holiness. Christ sanctifies all, making that which is united with him holy. In the same way, holy water mixed with unblessed water sanctifies that which it touches with that same blessing, making it all fully blessed and holy.

I've found this to be a beautiful and theologically rich understanding of the redemption of creation.
We discussed this topic with quite a bit of detail before.  I think you will find that it's a little more "complicated" than what you wrote:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19202.0.html
I'm not at all speaking about the Eucharist. That's an enitrely different ball game.
 

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serb1389 said:
How...why?  Is the HS working differently in some way?
I would say yes, absolutely.

Holy water is blessed, pure and...well, holy. But the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. We partake of the Eucharist only as members of the Church, giving us unity to Christ and forgiveness of sins.

Surely partaking of holy water is a blessed thing, but we don't practice "closed holy water" as far as I know, nor do we recognize the blessed water as Christ Himself, as we do the Holy Gifts.
 

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Benjamin the Red said:
serb1389 said:
How...why?  Is the HS working differently in some way?
I would say yes, absolutely.

Holy water is blessed, pure and...well, holy. But the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. We partake of the Eucharist only as members of the Church, giving us unity to Christ and forgiveness of sins.

Surely partaking of holy water is a blessed thing, but we don't practice "closed holy water" as far as I know, nor do we recognize the blessed water as Christ Himself, as we do the Holy Gifts.
I see your point.  However, we are speaking to the operation of the Holy Spirit.  When something is transformed by God into a blessing for us, be it the Eucharist, or Holy Water, what happens to that "thing"?  Does whatever touches it become what it is (like holy water + water, or Eucharist + a fly = per one of the conversations in that thread I sent you)? 

Or is it as you say, that there are degrees of "blessedness"?  We should not cast our pearls before the swine, either way.  Yes Eucharist is closed and is par excellence the manifestation of the kingdom of heaven, the body of Christ.  However, we are speaking to the Holy Spirit and how it operates and how it transforms and what happens afterwards when the transformed subject is in contact with something else.  I believe that therefore to say that whatever is in contact with Eucharist instantly becomes eucharist, is on the same plane as saying whatever comes into contact with holy water is instantly holy water.  To say otherwise is to say that the HS works in different ways, different degrees, and seperating out what has never been seperated out, IMO. 
 

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serb1389 said:
Benjamin the Red said:
serb1389 said:
How...why?  Is the HS working differently in some way?
I would say yes, absolutely.

Holy water is blessed, pure and...well, holy. But the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. We partake of the Eucharist only as members of the Church, giving us unity to Christ and forgiveness of sins.

Surely partaking of holy water is a blessed thing, but we don't practice "closed holy water" as far as I know, nor do we recognize the blessed water as Christ Himself, as we do the Holy Gifts.
I see your point.  However, we are speaking to the operation of the Holy Spirit.  When something is transformed by God into a blessing for us, be it the Eucharist, or Holy Water, what happens to that "thing"?  Does whatever touches it become what it is (like holy water + water, or Eucharist + a fly = per one of the conversations in that thread I sent you)? 

Or is it as you say, that there are degrees of "blessedness"?  We should not cast our pearls before the swine, either way.  Yes Eucharist is closed and is par excellence the manifestation of the kingdom of heaven, the body of Christ.  However, we are speaking to the Holy Spirit and how it operates and how it transforms and what happens afterwards when the transformed subject is in contact with something else.  I believe that therefore to say that whatever is in contact with Eucharist instantly becomes eucharist, is on the same plane as saying whatever comes into contact with holy water is instantly holy water.  To say otherwise is to say that the HS works in different ways, different degrees, and seperating out what has never been seperated out, IMO. 
From a logic stand point your argument seems to be lacking. To carry your principle forward, a drop of Eucharist or Holy Water spilled would make the whole universe holy.

Then again five loaves feeding five thousand and leaving 12 baskets to spare doesn't add up either.

Maybe there is another way to explain it.
 

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Is Holy Water just plain tap water with all the chlorine & sodium fluoride added?  Or is there a filtration process? 

Would it be wrong to say "Holy fertilizer, Holy fluoride, Holy chlorine", if we recognized those chemicals in our water?

Or is it more proper to be simplistic ie "not needing direct H20, but what is commonly known as water"?

Thanks!
 

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yeshuaisiam said:
Is Holy Water just plain tap water with all the chlorine & sodium fluoride added?  Or is there a filtration process? 

Would it be wrong to say "Holy fertilizer, Holy fluoride, Holy chlorine", if we recognized those chemicals in our water?

Or is it more proper to be simplistic ie "not needing direct H20, but what is commonly known as water"?

Thanks!
Sorry to be snarky, but please, give us a break. You think too much on the arcane.
 

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podkarpatska said:
yeshuaisiam said:
Is Holy Water just plain tap water with all the chlorine & sodium fluoride added?  Or is there a filtration process? 

Would it be wrong to say "Holy fertilizer, Holy fluoride, Holy chlorine", if we recognized those chemicals in our water?

Or is it more proper to be simplistic ie "not needing direct H20, but what is commonly known as water"?

Thanks!
Sorry to be snarky, but please, give us a break. You think too much on the arcane.
Plus, there's no such a thing as Orthodox Christianity with a cup of Anabaptist and a pinch of Messianic Judaism.  Orthodoxy is an either/or proposition.  We're only fooling ourselves if we think otherwise.  ;)
 

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serb1389 said:
Benjamin the Red said:
serb1389 said:
How...why?  Is the HS working differently in some way?
I would say yes, absolutely.

Holy water is blessed, pure and...well, holy. But the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. We partake of the Eucharist only as members of the Church, giving us unity to Christ and forgiveness of sins.

Surely partaking of holy water is a blessed thing, but we don't practice "closed holy water" as far as I know, nor do we recognize the blessed water as Christ Himself, as we do the Holy Gifts.
I see your point.  However, we are speaking to the operation of the Holy Spirit.  When something is transformed by God into a blessing for us, be it the Eucharist, or Holy Water, what happens to that "thing"?  Does whatever touches it become what it is (like holy water + water, or Eucharist + a fly = per one of the conversations in that thread I sent you)?  

Or is it as you say, that there are degrees of "blessedness"?  We should not cast our pearls before the swine, either way.  Yes Eucharist is closed and is par excellence the manifestation of the kingdom of heaven, the body of Christ.  However, we are speaking to the Holy Spirit and how it operates and how it transforms and what happens afterwards when the transformed subject is in contact with something else.  I believe that therefore to say that whatever is in contact with Eucharist instantly becomes eucharist, is on the same plane as saying whatever comes into contact with holy water is instantly holy water.  To say otherwise is to say that the HS works in different ways, different degrees, and seperating out what has never been seperated out, IMO.  
I believe there is a way a reconcile our opinions, here. At the risk of sounding vainglorious, let me quote myself from another thread:

Benjamin the Red said:
Unconsecrated wine is placed in the second chalice, and an amount of the Blood of Christ from the primary chalice is transferred into it, consecrating the whole chalice.
In this instance, unconsecrated wine becomes the Blood of Christ when mixed with the consecrated Gift. Now, I think this is interesting in light of a debate that is had concerning the Presanctified Liturgy. As I understand it, there are two schools of thought on what can and can't be called the Eucharist at this Liturgy. One school says that the intincted Body, when it comes into contact with the unconsecrated wine in the chalice, releases the intincted Blood and thereby consecrates the wine already in the chalice. Another school of thought denies this, saying that the wine in the chalice is indeed not the Blood. This is important, I see, for really only one reason. When the chalice is consumed after the Liturgy...can the deacon (or priest) simply consume it all at once, or must he spoon out each piece of the Body, then drink the wine?

Yet, even though this is a debate that is had, we have no problem with pouring the Blood into wine in order to consecrate it as Blood. Interesting. Some could say that the difference is the intinction. Pouring Blood directly into wine obviously makes more Blood, but intinct Body into wine does not necessarily make wine Blood. Why? Well, one could argue that adding more of one element to that element can effectively make more of whatever it is. Oil to oil, water to water, wine to wine, etc. But, not bread to wine, apparently. No one argues, as far as I know, that the wine at the Presanctified Liturgy becomes Blood because it touches the Body. Why? I would surmise that it is because the Body is of bread, and the wine is wine...and not bread. Further we cannot make "more" bread, can we? No, because mixing bread with bread means...crumbs...they are always able to be separated as solids...the same is not true with liquid or otherwise fluidic substances (again: oil, water, wine, etc.).

So, the conclusion I would make is that, liquid added to more liquid of the same type makes more, be it Holy Water or Blood (this is even used at the creation of Holy Myron by an autocelphalous church...a remnant of the Holy Chrism from before is added to it. I believe there is one tradition which states this is a tradition from Apostolic times, and therefore it can be claimed that the Holy Chrism used even to this day is the "same" Chrism used in the Apostolic era. Fascinating!). However, spilled Blood does not make a carpet Blood...it makes it carpet on which has been spilt Blood (God forbid). Holy water spilt on my kitchen floor doesn't make my kitchen floor Holy Water, it makes is a floor on which has been spilt Holy Water (time to bring out the Holy Mop??). However, Holy Water poured into the ocean melds with that water and makes it indiscernable, in the same way that Blood poured into an unconsecrated chalice becomes indiscernable, and therefore makes that with which it has united Holy Water (or Blood) as well.
 

serb1389

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Benjamin the Red said:
serb1389 said:
Benjamin the Red said:
serb1389 said:
How...why?  Is the HS working differently in some way?
I would say yes, absolutely.

Holy water is blessed, pure and...well, holy. But the Eucharist is the very Body and Blood of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ. We partake of the Eucharist only as members of the Church, giving us unity to Christ and forgiveness of sins.

Surely partaking of holy water is a blessed thing, but we don't practice "closed holy water" as far as I know, nor do we recognize the blessed water as Christ Himself, as we do the Holy Gifts.
I see your point.  However, we are speaking to the operation of the Holy Spirit.  When something is transformed by God into a blessing for us, be it the Eucharist, or Holy Water, what happens to that "thing"?  Does whatever touches it become what it is (like holy water + water, or Eucharist + a fly = per one of the conversations in that thread I sent you)?  

Or is it as you say, that there are degrees of "blessedness"?  We should not cast our pearls before the swine, either way.  Yes Eucharist is closed and is par excellence the manifestation of the kingdom of heaven, the body of Christ.  However, we are speaking to the Holy Spirit and how it operates and how it transforms and what happens afterwards when the transformed subject is in contact with something else.  I believe that therefore to say that whatever is in contact with Eucharist instantly becomes eucharist, is on the same plane as saying whatever comes into contact with holy water is instantly holy water.  To say otherwise is to say that the HS works in different ways, different degrees, and seperating out what has never been seperated out, IMO.  
I believe there is a way a reconcile our opinions, here. At the risk of sounding vainglorious, let me quote myself from another thread:

Benjamin the Red said:
Unconsecrated wine is placed in the second chalice, and an amount of the Blood of Christ from the primary chalice is transferred into it, consecrating the whole chalice.
In this instance, unconsecrated wine becomes the Blood of Christ when mixed with the consecrated Gift.
Um...how do you figure this?  maybe it's just blessed wine, which is a vehicle for the consecrated blood, which is already mingled (tinctured) with the bread (body), and the wine (as I said) is a blessed vehicle.  Once they are mixed together, you can't separate out molecules (as you said below).  But again I return to my first question...how do you figure? 

Now, I think this is interesting in light of a debate that is had concerning the Presanctified Liturgy. As I understand it, there are two schools of thought on what can and can't be called the Eucharist at this Liturgy. One school says that the intincted Body, when it comes into contact with the unconsecrated wine in the chalice, releases the intincted Blood and thereby consecrates the wine already in the chalice.
I am aware of this school and again I point out the issue that if this is true, then anything that comes into contact with the eucharist automatically becomes eucharist (which we discussed quite lengthily in the link I sent you), including a fly, spider, etc. that might get into the chalice.  Is that true?  Or is it more "theologically correct" what you allude to (below) that it is merely the eucharist ON something like a fly, etc. so for good "disposal" we properly take care of the eucharist and that which has come into contact with it. 

Another school of thought denies this, saying that the wine in the chalice is indeed not the Blood. This is important, I see, for really only one reason. When the chalice is consumed after the Liturgy...can the deacon (or priest) simply consume it all at once, or must he spoon out each piece of the Body, then drink the wine?
Well it's important for several reasons, which I listed above.  In terms of the reason you put here I believe it is moot because the priest/deacon must consume EVERYTHING in the chalice, down to the last bit, and in no particular order (necessarily).  This all stems from proper disposal/taking care of the eucharist and that which it has come into contact with.  Just like we burn holy things, all things have to be disposed of properly.

Yet, even though this is a debate that is had, we have no problem with pouring the Blood into wine in order to consecrate it as Blood. Interesting.
Maybe i'm not understanding you correctly....but the wine BECOMES blood.  unless you are speaking to the presanctified liturgy in which case no blood is actually consecrated...hence the term "pre-sanctified".  So.  Again, the wine is consecrated as blood at the altar table.  i'm not really sure what you mean by "pouring blood into wine"...?

Some could say that the difference is the intinction. Pouring Blood directly into wine obviously makes more Blood, but intinct Body into wine does not necessarily make wine Blood. Why? Well, one could argue that adding more of one element to that element can effectively make more of whatever it is. Oil to oil, water to water, wine to wine, etc.
No, not obviously.  Just because it comes into contact with it, doesn't make it the same thing.  Especially when we are speaking of holiness or blessed elements.  As Fr. George argued in the thread I sent you, there is the idea of "purpose" and "intent".  Regular water added to holy water is not intended to be holy water, but for another purpose.  whether that is to "stretch the holy water out" and give it to you for a longer time, or whether that is to keep it fresh.  The issue is intent.  Just b/c you add water to holy water doesn't make it holy water.  it makes it water with holy water in it. 

Same thing with when you receive the eucharist.  when you receive the eucharist doesn't literally make YOU the body of Christ, but rather a member of HIS body, by consuming Him in you.  You don't magically become literally the body of christ.  Make sense? 

But, not bread to wine, apparently. No one argues, as far as I know, that the wine at the Presanctified Liturgy becomes Blood because it touches the Body. Why? I would surmise that it is because the Body is of bread, and the wine is wine...and not bread. Further we cannot make "more" bread, can we? No, because mixing bread with bread means...crumbs...they are always able to be separated as solids...the same is not true with liquid or otherwise fluidic substances (again: oil, water, wine, etc.).
Well I think you are missing a key element here. The eucharist that is added to the cup is ALREADY co-mingled body and blood, and as I said, the cup DOES get blessed, but its primary function is to use wine to distribute the eucharist.  Almost in the same way as when a priest visits someone in the hospital. they give the body in a spoon and then add wine.  does that make the wine the blood of christ?  no, it is still wine, but it contains the eucharist in it so we take care of it & dispose of it properly.  Again, question of intent. 

Also...i'm pretty sure you can't seperate liquids either.  can you tell the difference in a molecule of h20 and a holy molecule of h20??  I sure can't...

So, the conclusion I would make is that, liquid added to more liquid of the same type makes more, be it Holy Water or Blood (this is even used at the creation of Holy Myron by an autocelphalous church...a remnant of the Holy Chrism from before is added to it. I believe there is one tradition which states this is a tradition from Apostolic times, and therefore it can be claimed that the Holy Chrism used even to this day is the "same" Chrism used in the Apostolic era. Fascinating!).
Actually the Myron is added to keep a physical manifestation of the tradition of holy myron.  However, just adding it to the other "unconsecrated" myron doesn't make it all consecrated.  And as an additional side-note, it is all "re-consecrated" (so to say, in this argument) at the end anyway.  it's not like there's a 6 hour service just to put oil into oil.  It's just a physical reminder/remnant of the ancient myron used by the apostles. 

However, spilled Blood does not make a carpet Blood...it makes it carpet on which has been spilt Blood (God forbid). Holy water spilt on my kitchen floor doesn't make my kitchen floor Holy Water, it makes is a floor on which has been spilt Holy Water (time to bring out the Holy Mop??). However, Holy Water poured into the ocean melds with that water and makes it indiscernable, in the same way that Blood poured into an unconsecrated chalice becomes indiscernable, and therefore makes that with which it has united Holy Water (or Blood) as well.

Hold on.  You say that holy water spilled into the ocean becomes indiscernible, but holy water put into a bowl of regular water is discernible?  how did we get there?  It's the same difference, just 2 different sample sizes...??


 

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AWR said:
I'm confused, if I ran out, I would just get more the next time I was in church.  Do not all Orthodox Churches have the Holy Water available year round?  I believe all the parishes that I've belonged to do.
Ours does, but not, not all do.  A friend of mine relayed to me that in Kyrgyzstan that a parish he attended for some time blessed holy water every single Sunday after Liturgy with the full blessing of waters (i.e. lesser blessing from Trebnik, but still a bit lengthy for being after every Liturgy). 
 

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podkarpatska said:
yeshuaisiam said:
Is Holy Water just plain tap water with all the chlorine & sodium fluoride added?  Or is there a filtration process? 
Would it be wrong to say "Holy fertilizer, Holy fluoride, Holy chlorine", if we recognized those chemicals in our water?
Or is it more proper to be simplistic ie "not needing direct H20, but what is commonly known as water"?
Thanks!
  Sorry to be snarky, but please, give us a break. You think too much on the arcane.
Thank you.  It needed to be said. 
 

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I am not going to quote the entire conversation between BTR and Serb, but have these few comments:

At every Liturgy:  "blessed is the union of Holy Things always now and ever and unto ages of ages" (addition of the Zeon).  The Zeon was not consecrated with the wine, but is added at every Liturgy, and afterwards, we do not call it "the Blood of Christ with warm water" that we are partaking of but rather the Blood of Christ. 

We bless rivers, lakes, and reservoirs that everyone drinks from every Theophany with the Greater blessing of waters, as well as sprinkling dirty cupboards, bathrooms with toilets, and animals.   



 
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