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How can God be just?

LivenotoneviL

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So, here me out - 7,500,000,000 people are on this planet.
If we assume that Eastern Orthodoxy is correct: 300,000,000 people.

0.04% of the planet.

More than this, it's very clear in Christ's own words that "narrow is the gate", so for the sake of generosity, let's say that 49% of the population of Orthodoxy make it to Heaven.

That's .0196% of the population who make it to Heaven. 99.98% of the population is condemned burning for INFINITY, because no salvation outside the Church.

If you want to be more realistic, it's more like .002% when you think of it like a traditionalist.

More than that, in order to simply be a part of that 300,000,000, unless God deliberately made you born from some ethnic background, just some meaningless physical characteristics that mean nothing - NOTHING - which begs the question, how can God have preference to something that means nothing - you have to know all these Ancient Philosophies just to understand how you get to that conclusion. Plato, Aristotle, Ptolemy, etc.

Or you can just take a random guess, and hope for the best, because even though people feel like "God" tells them the "Truth", guess what? God allowed demons to have free will, knowing all the well they would become corrupt just so they can allow 30,000 sects of Christianity alone to be created, so those who have free will and want to follow God can't. Also, the demons create several religions, some which are hundreds of times larger.

Also, he created these angels, knowing their intentions, knowing that they would take away your free will by allowing your inflation of the passions, and every time someone screws up - which EVERYBODY does, even in natural ways such as simply looking at a person of the different gender in an adolescent way - burning forever.

But hey, he allows there to be pretty services with incense, and pretty paintings - right?

So how is God just. Why should I bother even trying to get close to God, if it seems He's so hellbent on making sure that 99% of the population burns for eternity?
 

LivenotoneviL

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After all, isn't this something that He knew when he created the world?
 

LivenotoneviL

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How so? Can you find a Church Father which says that those outside the Church are saved other than "Let God handle it," which is a pure avoidance of the question? Can you find a Church Father who says that the majority of adherents of the Church will be saved?

How is it circular? They are only logical deductions based on the Church Fathers of Orthodoxy.
 

RaphaCam

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They are circular because you're deducing harshness from numbers and numbers from harshness.

[list type=decimal]
[*]This is religion, not common law jurisprudence. We don't have massive tomes of jurisprudential sentences by our saints with abridgements like: "SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH. AZYMES. STATUES." Not even the Scholastics did such a thing AFAIK. So it's hard to find much stuff, and sometimes there doesn't seem to be a continuity.
[*]Ss. Ignatius Brianchaninov and Paisios of the Holy Mountain explicitly said salvation for those outside the Church is possible in an extraordinary way, but we shouldn't give anyone false confidence since salvation is already hard for those within, let alone for those without.
[*]Ss. Augustine and Gregory of Nazianzus both supported the idea of people belonging to Christ will still out of the Church.
[*]St. Justin Martyr claimed some ancient philosophers like Heraclitus were Christians.
[*]There's a parable about Plato being converted in Hades, I believe in the Sayings of the Desert Fathers.
[/list]
 

Lepanto

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First of all, I think you did the math wrong  :p
300 Mio. Orthodox / 7.5 billion people is really 4%, not 0.04%.
There are a lot of you guys out there....
 

melkite

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If it really is true that such a scarce few make it to heaven, perhaps it is true that for most who go to hell for what we would consider trivial reasons, their experience of it is what the Latins would describe as limbo?

I also am given hope by the Apocalypse of Peter, which was so widely believed to be scriptural at one time that it almost was included in the NT canon.  It gives hope that even hell may not truly be eternal.
 

ttcmacro

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Your reasoning is one of the main reasons I am Orthodox, and no longer a Protestant. The idea that everyone who hasn't said a "sinner's prayer" is doomed didn't make sense to me (it also never made sense on a biblical basis, as Jesus tended to tie judgement to works in many places).

My reading of the fathers is limited, so I do not know exactly what many of them said about those outside the Church. But it is not my understanding that Orthodoxy holds such a exclusive view of salvation. At least some of the fathers were universalists after all!
 

Ainnir

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I think the fatal flaw in the OP is that it reduces salvation to an equation.  Whereas, as far as I've understood, salvation & theosis in Orthodoxy is a relationship, a process, holistic, and organic.  Which also means it can look messy.  This can be frustrating for some (occasionally, it has been for me as well), but I think it's necessary in order to compassionately allow for the myriad of ways in which we are weak and broken.  And His justice should not be spoken of without considering His mercy.
 

Sethrak

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All this ~ the only salvation being true ~ God can make an exception ~ Our Lord God can make ten million exceptions ~ only we ~ Only man is given One Way ```

There is nothing that limits Gods Mercy or Wish, Will or Intention to have all those He Considers Good at his side ```

All limits are on man ~ Our God Can Do Anything ```




seth
 

RaphaCam

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My archbishop had a homily partly on that theme last Sunday, regarding the gospel of Christ walking on water. He said that, as on the passage, one can find Christ outside the Church, but it's extremely dangerous, and they may even "mistake him for a ghost".
 

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My journey from Protestantism to Orthodox Christianity changed my relationship with Christ from "getting out of hell and into heaven" to "participating with Him in His plan to save the world". I don't even think in the terms espoused by the OP any more. Is that Orthodox?
 

hecma925

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LivenotoneviL said:
After all, isn't this something that He knew when he created the world?
God doesn't want us to be apart from Him.  But we choose to forsake Him, a footnote on a cross in Roman history.
 

Tzimis

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Bryan Paul said:
My journey from Protestantism to Orthodox Christianity changed my relationship with Christ from "getting out of hell and into heaven" to "participating with Him in His plan to save the world". I don't even think in the terms espoused by the OP any more. Is that Orthodox?
Very Orthodox.
 

ttcmacro

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Tzimis said:
Bryan Paul said:
My journey from Protestantism to Orthodox Christianity changed my relationship with Christ from "getting out of hell and into heaven" to "participating with Him in His plan to save the world". I don't even think in the terms espoused by the OP any more. Is that Orthodox?
Very Orthodox.
Agree :)
 

Sethrak

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Finding the Way is Through Christ ~ But Christ will gather His Good People ~ from everywhere ~ don't you think ```


Old man Melkonian told me ( when I was a small boy ) he told me and showed me the scars on his legs ~ where furkish sodiers shot him through the legs ~ when he was my age ``` He spoke of the bloody track he left in the snow as he ran ```

He told me also that he was hidden by turks ~"Good Turks" he said ``` 

Now these "Good Turks" ~ Would I wonder today ~ Christ bring them in as his own ~ I wonder ```
 
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