How Dangerous is Smokeless Tobacco

LBK

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Mor Ephrem said:
ZealousZeal said:
JamesR said:
Well at least there'd be less temptation to fornicate. I wouldn't be able to resist a turned-on female.
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Benedicta tu inter mulieres. 






Blessed are you among women.
Oh, our ZZ is a treasure indeed!  :)
 

WPM

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JamesR said:
orthonorm said:
LBK said:
DeniseDenise said:
PeterTheAleut said:
JamesR said:
Recently I started using Copenhagen Long Cut "dipping" tobacco and I've found that I really enjoy it--more so than cigars and smoking tobacco. My favorite flavor is Mint. I go through about a circular can a month. I want some real, unbiased sources and knowledge on just how dangerous--if at all--this really is for my health. Should I stop before I become addicted? Does anyone here have any experience with it? I love that lucid, uplifting feeling I get from the nicotine buzz  :laugh:

So, realistically, is this stuff dangerous? My mom hates seeing me do it because she says it will ruin my teeth that she spent money getting braces on when I was in 6-7th grade.
Common sense should tell you that if you have something as abrasive as smokeless tobacco rubbing against your teeth and gums all day every day you're very quickly going to lose tooth enamel and your gums. The end result of all this is that you'll lose your teeth.
Might not need those teeth when the oral cancer happens...
Yup. And orthonorm's "advice" is disgusting, if not criminal. Nasal and pharyngeal cancer, anyone? Lovely ....  :p :p :p :mad:
You have no idea what you are talking about. If I get time I'll demonstrate once again you rarely have any notion of what you are talking about. You post only suggests you were close to someone who died from disease which happens more frequently and earlier within tobacco users. That is all.

Please attempt to convict me of my crime. In the meantime, look at the health outcomes for those using non-cured oral tobacco. Hard to differentiate them from non-users.

I doubt you know much about the differences in orally used tobaccos. I grew up for a greater portion of my life in tobacco country.

Again, I'll post even more criminal stuff later.
Can you explain to me the difference between cured and non cured oral tobacco? I'm new to this. Is Copenhagen's Long Cut stuff non-cured? What product would you recommend for a newcomer like me? Preferably safer.
I've used snuff tobacco many times, ... I would rather quit now.
 

ZealousZeal

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JamesR said:
I read them all, and while being helpful, they were still vague. They virtually all point out that there's a correlation between smokeless tobacco and cancer, but neither of them have explained HOW strong this risk or correlation is. Nowadays it seems like even drinking water causes cancer.
I hope this helps:

  • Besides lung cancer, tobacco use also increases the risk for cancers of the mouth, lips, nose and sinuses, larynx (voice box), pharynx (throat), esophagus (swallowing tube), stomach, pancreas, kidney, bladder, uterus, cervix, colon/rectum, ovary (mucinous), and acute myeloid leukemia. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)
  • In the United States, tobacco use is responsible for nearly 1 in 5 deaths; this equals about 480,000 early deaths each year. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014; and US Surgeon General Report 2014)
  • Tobacco use accounts for at least 30% of all cancer deaths, causing 87% of lung cancer deaths in men, and 70% of lung cancer deaths in women. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)

 

PeterTheAleut

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ZealousZeal said:
JamesR said:
I read them all, and while being helpful, they were still vague. They virtually all point out that there's a correlation between smokeless tobacco and cancer, but neither of them have explained HOW strong this risk or correlation is. Nowadays it seems like even drinking water causes cancer.
I hope this helps:

  • Besides lung cancer, tobacco use also increases the risk for cancers of the mouth, lips, nose and sinuses, larynx (voice box), pharynx (throat), esophagus (swallowing tube), stomach, pancreas, kidney, bladder, uterus, cervix, colon/rectum, ovary (mucinous), and acute myeloid leukemia. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)
  • In the United States, tobacco use is responsible for nearly 1 in 5 deaths; this equals about 480,000 early deaths each year. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014; and US Surgeon General Report 2014)
  • Tobacco use accounts for at least 30% of all cancer deaths, causing 87% of lung cancer deaths in men, and 70% of lung cancer deaths in women. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)
This is about tobacco use in general. James asked for facts on smokeless tobacco in specific.
 

Kerdy

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I have no issues with a few cigars or picking up the briar as a hobby, I indulge in both myself, but I avoid dip for several reasons.  Of the tobacco products, it's the most dangerous, but a dip on occasion is fine.  An addictive habit which is the norm is bad.  

And mint?  *vomit*
 

Aristocles

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PeterTheAleut said:
ZealousZeal said:
JamesR said:
I read them all, and while being helpful, they were still vague. They virtually all point out that there's a correlation between smokeless tobacco and cancer, but neither of them have explained HOW strong this risk or correlation is. Nowadays it seems like even drinking water causes cancer.
I hope this helps:

  • Besides lung cancer, tobacco use also increases the risk for cancers of the mouth, lips, nose and sinuses, larynx (voice box), pharynx (throat), esophagus (swallowing tube), stomach, pancreas, kidney, bladder, uterus, cervix, colon/rectum, ovary (mucinous), and acute myeloid leukemia. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)
  • In the United States, tobacco use is responsible for nearly 1 in 5 deaths; this equals about 480,000 early deaths each year. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014; and US Surgeon General Report 2014)
  • Tobacco use accounts for at least 30% of all cancer deaths, causing 87% of lung cancer deaths in men, and 70% of lung cancer deaths in women. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)
This is about tobacco use in general. James asked for facts on smokeless tobacco in specific.
You are correct. I'm afraid I veered this thread when I alluded to my pipe avocation to lend credence to my advice to NOT use smokeless tobacco (who really wants advice from a non-tobacco user or enemy anyway?).
 

hecma925

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I've used tobacco.  I favor pipe smoking or a good cigar on occasion.  I used to do the smokeless stuff in college and it helped keep me awake when I needed it.  I've tried snuff, longcut, plugs, chew, and snus.  Out of all of them, I like the taste of natural chew and the convenience of snus (I use these on rare occasion).  Flavored stuff always made me gag.  Mint is for candy and gum; not tobacco.

Anyway, tobacco is something I enjoy every now and then.  I've never felt addicted to it at any time.  It's not the healthiest thing to do, if you had paid attention to middle/high school health class, you would know that; but there are plenty of worse things for your health that can kill you, such as not exercising, getting fat, and eating poorly (which can be just as addicting). 

If you do choose to use it every day, be scrupulous about your oral health.  Keep your teeth and gums clean.  The first hint of redness, swelling, or pain (one reason I stopped with the longcut/snuff), stop.  Take a break.  If symptoms persist, see a dentist/physician. 

You're an adult with access to the internet.  The information and studies are there for your perusal.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Αριστοκλής said:
PeterTheAleut said:
ZealousZeal said:
JamesR said:
I read them all, and while being helpful, they were still vague. They virtually all point out that there's a correlation between smokeless tobacco and cancer, but neither of them have explained HOW strong this risk or correlation is. Nowadays it seems like even drinking water causes cancer.
I hope this helps:

  • Besides lung cancer, tobacco use also increases the risk for cancers of the mouth, lips, nose and sinuses, larynx (voice box), pharynx (throat), esophagus (swallowing tube), stomach, pancreas, kidney, bladder, uterus, cervix, colon/rectum, ovary (mucinous), and acute myeloid leukemia. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)
  • In the United States, tobacco use is responsible for nearly 1 in 5 deaths; this equals about 480,000 early deaths each year. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014; and US Surgeon General Report 2014)
  • Tobacco use accounts for at least 30% of all cancer deaths, causing 87% of lung cancer deaths in men, and 70% of lung cancer deaths in women. (Source: Cancer Facts & Figures 2014)
This is about tobacco use in general. James asked for facts on smokeless tobacco in specific.
You are correct. I'm afraid I veered this thread when I alluded to my pipe avocation to lend credence to my advice to NOT use smokeless tobacco (who really wants advice from a non-tobacco user or enemy anyway?).
You give yourself too much credit. ;) The truth be told, I enjoy smoking a cigar or pipe on occasion, but I won't touch cigarettes or smokeless tobacco.
 

Jonathan Gress

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Yeah, if it's a daily habit you're starting to look at significant health risks, but if you keep it to special occasions, and you genuinely enjoy the flavor of the smoke, then I don't see that it's such a big deal, at least no bigger then enjoying a occasional double bacon cheeseburger or a similar heart-attack-on-a-plate.

Think of it as a special treat. If you start to think of it as self-medication (I need to smoke to calm my nerves, concentrate etc) then you're likely to find yourself self-medicating more often and putting yourself in more serious danger. If you really need something on a regular basis to calm anxiety or relieve pain, talk to your doctor and get something less lethal.

For every George Burns there's a Christopher Hitchens.
 

Alpo

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hecma925 said:
You're an adult
NOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!11



Teenagers are not adults. Not by a long shot.

As for the smokeless tobacco, I'd go with Swedish snus. Everything else is heretical. With moderation of course. You could try avoiding the habit during lenten seasons.
 

hecma925

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Alpo said:
hecma925 said:
You're an adult
NOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!11



Teenagers are not adults. Not by a long shot.

As for the smokeless tobacco, I'd go with Swedish snus. Everything else is heretical. With moderation of course. You could try avoiding the habit during lenten seasons.
LOL!  But really, people need to stop treating legal adults (even if they're 18 or 19) as kids.  They'll continue to act as children if society thinks it's ok.  And, yes, Swedish snus is the standard, even if Camel came out with a "kid" version.
 

Alpo

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hecma925 said:
LOL!  But really, people need to stop treating legal adults (even if they're 18 or 19) as kids.
They are kids. It's just that compared to Americans I might have a little more harsher ideas how kids ought to raised. :angel:
 

orthonorm

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Alpo said:
hecma925 said:
You're an adult
NOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!11



Teenagers are not adults. Not by a long shot.

As for the smokeless tobacco, I'd go with Swedish snus. Everything else is heretical. With moderation of course. You could try avoiding the habit during lenten seasons.
See my suggestion above.

LBK doesn't know what that is and and not knowing manages to believes it poses the same risks as smoking or other forms of oral tobacco. I am not sure how you can't be moderate with snus. It is moderate by design. Nothing like full plug.

Wonder if she is aware of the use of snus as a method of risk reduction in smokers.

I dubbed it the proletariat patch.
 

Alpo

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orthonorm said:
I am not sure how you can't be moderate with snus.
Using several dosages of snus while simultaneously smoking a cigarrette seems rather unmoderate to me. I've heard of someone who did that. Not sure if it was an urban legend but wouldn't be anyhow suprised if the story was true.
 
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Alpo said:
hecma925 said:
You're an adult
NOOOOOoooooooooooo!!!!!!!11



Teenagers are not adults. Not by a long shot.

As for the smokeless tobacco, I'd go with Swedish snus. Everything else is heretical. With moderation of course. You could try avoiding the habit during lenten seasons.
We all have enough bad habits that have accrued to us over a lifetime. 

If one intentionally seeks to cultivate a habit, it ought to be prayer.
 

hecma925

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Alpo said:
orthonorm said:
I am not sure how you can't be moderate with snus.
Using several dosages of snus while simultaneously smoking a cigarrette seems rather unmoderate to me. I've heard of someone who did that. Not sure if it was an urban legend but wouldn't be anyhow suprised if the story was true.
I knew a few guys in college who did that, but with longcut dip.  That's some serious nicotine overkill.  They just needed a nicotine patch for the trifecta.
 

DeniseDenise

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Despite everyone discussing habit vs non habit etc...

Honestly James, considering you have an uncle with cancer, if I were in your shoes I would steer very clear of as many of the cancer causing things as is possible.

Even if there is a trigger, the 'likelyhood' of aquiring a cancer is genetic.  'Not all people have these dire consequences', which is true, but the odds increase if you have the genetic pre-disposition.


I personally just wouldn't take the risk over something that is not -doing- anything for my life in a positive way.
 

Maria

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DeniseDenise said:
Despite everyone discussing habit vs non habit etc...

Honestly James, considering you have an uncle with cancer, if I were in your shoes I would steer very clear of as many of the cancer causing things as is possible.

Even if there is a trigger, the 'likelyhood' of aquiring a cancer is genetic.  'Not all people have these dire consequences', which is true, but the odds increase if you have the genetic pre-disposition.


I personally just wouldn't take the risk over something that is not -doing- anything for my life in a positive way.
I agree with Denise!
 

orthonorm

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hecma925 said:
Alpo said:
orthonorm said:
I am not sure how you can't be moderate with snus.
Using several dosages of snus while simultaneously smoking a cigarrette seems rather unmoderate to me. I've heard of someone who did that. Not sure if it was an urban legend but wouldn't be anyhow suprised if the story was true.
I knew a few guys in college who did that, but with longcut dip.  That's some serious nicotine overkill.  They just needed a nicotine patch for the trifecta.
That's folks with a high nicotine tolerance, which is set genetically primarily it seems. So some people can moderately use nicotine. I can't. It will stir up my need for nicotine. With dip / smoking, people will dose to get their fix. Which is why cigarettes with greater nicotine levels will hook you sooner, if you are hooked they are better for you, since you will smoke less to get your fix.

My brother tried using short cut dip to stop smoking and wound up doing both.

But yeah, if I were to smoke regular cigarettes, I could go a couple packs a day easily. With heavier cigarettes, I got by on fewer than 8 a day. Sometimes less. At which point, the dangers of smoking become difficult to determine save for those with underlying heart issue for whom any repeated increase in heart rate outside moderate physical activity is likely to be a bad thing.

My mother died like PtA's father did. But it wasn't smoking that killed her at 39. Based on my own problem and genetic makeup and other biometrics she was going to have a heart attack early in life. Maybe smoking reduce that life by some years. But it wasn't like she was going to reach 90 or even 60 if she hadn't.

Uncured tobacco is associated with higher risks of stuff like pancreatic cancer, since you swallow the juice rather than spitting it out, but such cancer is already so rare that the increase is, well, no big deal. Again, some have advocated its use as risk reduction much like the patch (which is not without risk, it still creates cardiac stimulus which isn't so great for some).

Being a shrill and uninformed nay sayer is going to do nothing to stop a young person from using tobacco. It that worked, none would use it. Make it illegal, cost prohibitive, or take my route, show nuance and tolerance. Helps abate that knee jerk reaction. And if you quite before 30, really it becomes difficult to determine harm. Not what people want to say, but a lot of people can pick up and put down smoking. Just like heavy drinking. Others can't. I would look at family history rather medical facts.

So if JamesR wants to play with tobacco and is worried about health concerns, I would suggest avoiding it, but if he wants real data, I would look toward those who use tobacco in my near family. If they are strung out and always quitting till they die, I would avoid it. But I also wouldn't make it such an all or nothing dire situation. If you believe this is a one time decision, when you might want to quit, you might really believe the nonsense, and think it is pointless to try.

I've seen that pattern in AA where they condition people in meeting over and over about not being able to have a single drink or two without utter and complete relapse. This speaks against nearly all literature on the subject and given the fact that most in AA are not alcoholics anymore but people badgered by their spouses and the courts to stop irresponsible drinking, they might have a drink and then *bam* they are off to the races, cause that is what that drinks means.

It doesn't.

So James, I would suggest not picking up tobacco but if you do, there are a variety of way to use which have varying risks and benefits.

More so, I think JamesR is mature enough to digest all this and make the appropriate decision.
 
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