• For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

How do Oriental and Eastern Orthodox view original sin?

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
I'm sorry for heckling you. It's not right for you to be treated with a lack of respect, especially since you're genuinely seeking the truth of the matter, and have already quoted some research you made. But I must say that I agree with Michael Seraphim's comment.
No, It was directed towards hecma the heckler.
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
Sorry, I thought it was me b/c you said Mr. Philips.
Anyways, I encourage you to read "On the Incarnation" and the article I posted earlier. As well, just continue to dialogue with the people online. God bless!
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
The consequence of sin is death. The consequence of Adam's sin was mortal and corrupt human nature

The wage of sin is death = this doesn't mean that if you never sinned you wouldn't die, since you are born inheriting mortal and corrupt nature from Adam, which was the consequence of his sin upon his human nature
The very reason why Christ cheated death is because of his sinlessness.
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
I like it! Too bad you're not a Christian.
Hecma...The Gospel of John says that Christ was “full of grace and truth” I think our comments should be the same way. There is absolutely a place for sternness, but we are speaking over the internet, to people we don’t know. When someone attacks someone online, the other person gets on the defensive and the goal becomes winning an argument, not truth.

Please correct Tzimis’ soteriology in a comprehensive manner.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,242
Reaction score
669
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Oh it's been done. Never seems to stick, though...
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
983
Points
113
Age
160
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Hecma...The Gospel of John says that Christ was “full of grace and truth” I think our comments should be the same way. There is absolutely a place for sternness, but we are speaking over the internet, to people we don’t know. When someone attacks someone online, the other person gets on the defensive and the goal becomes winning an argument, not truth.

Please correct Tzimis’ soteriology in a comprehensive manner.
Sure! He believes that Christ did not die. Maybe he believes the swoon hypothesis. He can explain it himself. I believe that the God-Man Jesus Christ died. He literally died. But because He is the God-Man, He resurrected. If Tzimis believes that Jesus did not die, he denies the Faith of Our Fathers, both EO or OO. That is in the Creed. If Tzimis doesn't believe that fact, he is not EO or OO. So what is he? He can explain his own self. Maybe Jesus ended up in India. Or buried in Japan. I believe Jesus rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,242
Reaction score
669
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
"Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death..."
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
Sure! He believes that Christ did not die. Maybe he believes the swoon hypothesis. He can explain it himself. I believe that the God-Man Jesus Christ died. He literally died. But because He is the God-Man, He resurrected. If Tzimis believes that Jesus did not die, he denies the Faith of Our Fathers, both EO or OO. That is in the Creed. If Tzimis doesn't believe that fact, he is not EO or OO. So what is he? He can explain his own self. Maybe Jesus ended up in India. Or buried in Japan. I believe Jesus rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Of course the soteriology that Tzimis is presenting is not the faith of the EO or OO. But he did not explicitly deny Christ’s death. What he did do, however, is create a false assumption that death is always the result of personal sin. And I think he believes in Augustinian Original Sin.
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
Here’s a good video about Orthodox Soteriology and answering tough questions about Christ’s death.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
983
Points
113
Age
160
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Here’s a good video about Orthodox Soteriology and answering tough questions about Christ’s death.
Just as I believe Christ died and rose from the dead, I will not watch a Zoom meeting.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
983
Points
113
Age
160
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Of course the soteriology that Tzimis is presenting is not the faith of the EO or OO. But he did not explicitly deny Christ’s death. What he did do, however, is create a false assumption that death is always the result of personal sin. And I think he believes in Augustinian Original Sin.
If Christ didn't die, who cares when I die?
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,242
Reaction score
669
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Well if we want to bring it back to Tzimis' original point, for the record, what I've heard from both EO and OO is the term "ancestral sin."
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
I think Hecma, Ainnir, and I are on the same page when it comes to Soteriology. It's just Tzimis who differs from us, and is adopting a wrong view. I don't know what Tzimis meant in his messages to be honest. I think we shouldn't grill him about what he thinks. We should just give him resources and let him ask questions
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
983
Points
113
Age
160
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
"Greek Orthodox"
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
By the way, we believe that Christ died in the flesh. His human soul separated from His human Body, while His divinity remained one with both.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Sorry, I thought it was me b/c you said Mr. Philips.
Anyways, I encourage you to read "On the Incarnation" and the article I posted earlier. As well, just continue to dialogue with the people online. God bless!
I've read it plenty of times, but thanks for the suggestion. Whats missing here are the alternative facts. I understand you perfectly though. I can see how my words may confuse you. Yet I've said nothing that the church doesn't already agree with. Human nature is both physical and personified.
So to say Christs human nature died is wrong. That is why the word death isn't in the vocabulary of the creed.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,242
Reaction score
669
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Yes, your alternative facts for your alternate reality. You are incorrect, plain and simple.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Of course the soteriology that Tzimis is presenting is not the faith of the EO or OO. But he did not explicitly deny Christ’s death. What he did do, however, is create a false assumption that death is always the result of personal sin. And I think he believes in Augustinian Original Sin.
Death comes from our nature yet in life all will sin and give credibility to our fallibleness. So personal sin is unavoidable.
Augustinian wasn't completely wrong. Sin is passed down through generation. Even though we aren't guilty of it, in a sense we are.
Just as a guilty as a climate activist using a car to drive to work.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Yes, your alternative facts for your alternate reality. You are incorrect, plain and simple.
Im as wrong as a wall when blind person walks into it.
 

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,242
Reaction score
669
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
So you say.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,372
Reaction score
239
Points
63
Age
40
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
I've read it plenty of times, but thanks for the suggestion. Whats missing here are the alternative facts. I understand you perfectly though. I can see how my words may confuse you. Yet I've said nothing that the church doesn't already agree with. Human nature is both physical and personified.
So to say Christs human nature died is wrong. That is why the word death isn't in the vocabulary of the creed.
John 19.33: Who died?
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
The body of the word died.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
On the incarnation of the word St. Athanasius

For the Word, perceiving that no otherwise could the corruption of men be undone save by death as a necessary condition, while it was impossible for the Word to suffer death, being immortal, and Son of the Father; to this end He takes to Himself a body capable of death, that it, by partaking of the Word Who is above all, might be worthy to die in the stead of all, and might, because of the Word which had come to dwell in it, remain incorruptible, and that thenceforth corruption might be stayed from all by the Grace of the Resurrection. Whence, by offering unto death the body
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
we believe that Christ died in the flesh. His human soul separated from His human Body, while His divinity remained one with both.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
we believe that Christ died in the flesh. His human soul separated from His human Body, while His divinity remained one with both.
What does this have to do with original sin?
This is like elementary level Christian learning.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
983
Points
113
Age
160
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
What does this have to do with original sin?
This is like elementary level Christian learning.
So are you pre-K or something? Jesus-loves-me-this-I-know-for-the-Bible-tells-me-so level of thinking?
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,996
Reaction score
508
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
"Let all the acts of one that loves men be loving, as were all the sufferings of Christ, to which we could add nothing greater than, when God even died for us, to refuse on our part to forgive even the smallest wrongs of our fellowmen." (St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 33.14)

"Is it possible to condemn the Pharisee, and expound the debasing effect of haughtiness, to know Christ, Who condescended to the form of a slave, and ate with publicans, and washed the disciples' feet, and did not disdain the cross, in order to nail my sin to it: and, more incredible still, to see God crucified, aye, along with robbers also, and derided by the passers by, impassible, and beyond the reach of suffering as He is; and yet, as his slanderers imagine, soar himself above the clouds, and think that nothing can be on an equality with him." (St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 43.64)

"And wonder not that the whole world was ransomed; for it was no mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God, who died on its behalf. Moreover one man's sin, even Adam's, had power to bring death to the world; but if by the trespass of the one death reigned over the world, how shall not life much rather reign by the righteousness of the One? ...For it was not a mere man who died for us, as I said before, but the Son of God, God made man." (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Lecture 13.2-3)
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
He's jealous he isn't smart. So he resorts to bulling tactics.
20,000 + posts full of cough! And not one donation.
Tzimis, and Hecma. Both of you would agree, I think, that Christ died in the flesh, and rose, trampling death, for us. Did He do so for us to be rude to each other?
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
983
Points
113
Age
160
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Tzimis, and Hecma. Both of you would agree, I think, that Christ died in the flesh, and rose, trampling death, for us. Did He do so for us to be rude to each other?
Tzimis will say that Christ did not die.
 
Top