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How do Oriental and Eastern Orthodox view original sin?

hecma925

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He's jealous he isn't smart. So he resorts to bulling tactics.
20,000 + posts full of cough! And not one donation.
I have Covid-19. Coughing is a symptom.
 

Ainnir

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What does this have to do with original sin?
Well, it all started here:
No, we don't. We inherit death, the result of sin. A baby isn't born sinful.
That isn't entirety true.
So what is entirely true?
Lets look at it this way. The consequence of sin is death right? So that begs the question. Whey do people die if they have no sin?
You still haven't answered my question, so I will repeat it.
If the consequence for sin is death, why do people still die who are sinless?
Because the world is fallen. Christ died.
Your religion teaches that Christ is dead?
The rest we know.
 

Stephen Philips

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Tzimis has agreed that Christ physically underwent the process of death, and that His human soul separated from His human Body, while His divinity remained one with both. What remains to be discussed is whether or not sin is inherited, as St. Augustine taught. As well, we ought to address how we look at personal sin in Orthodox soteriology. But none of this should even be discussed if the rude tone is going to continue. We would be adding condemnation to ourselves. Forgive my sternness, but I think I'm right about what I'm saying.
 

hecma925

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Tzimis has agreed that Christ physically underwent the process of death, and that His human soul separated from His human Body, while His divinity remained one with both. What remains to be discussed is whether or not sin is inherited, as St. Augustine taught. As well, we ought to address how we look at personal sin in Orthodox soteriology. But none of this should even be discussed if the rude tone is going to continue. We would be adding condemnation to ourselves. Forgive my sternness, but I think I'm right about what I'm saying.
If you believe that's what Tzimis wrote, ok. If you believe you are being stern, ok.
 

Tzimis

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Tzimis has agreed that Christ physically underwent the process of death, and that His human soul separated from His human Body, while His divinity remained one with both. What remains to be discussed is whether or not sin is inherited, as St. Augustine taught. As well, we ought to address how we look at personal sin in Orthodox soteriology. But none of this should even be discussed if the rude tone is going to continue. We would be adding condemnation to ourselves. Forgive my sternness, but I think I'm right about what I'm saying.
You sound like a reasonable fellow. Believe me, I'm correct. That is why I stated earlier that the OO do not have a concept of it. They object to the "Tome of st leo." So they will never agree with him.
 

Tzimis

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Tome of saint Leo:

“The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, and therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God;” as if, because the Virgin’s conception was caused by a divine act, therefore the flesh of him whom she conceived was not of the nature of her who conceived him. But we are not to understand that “generation,” peerlessly wonderful, and wonderfully peerless, in such a sense as that the newness of the mode of production did away with the proper character of the kind. For it was the Holy Ghost who gave fecundity to the Virgin, but it was from a body that a real body was derived; and “when Wisdom was building herself a house,” the “Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,” that is, in that flesh which he assumed from a human being, and which he animated with the spirit of rational life.


Accordingly while the distinctness of both natures and substances was preserved, and both met in one Person, lowliness was assumed by majesty, weakness by power, mortality by eternity; and, in order to pay the debt of our condition, the inviolable nature was united to the passible, so that as the appropriate remedy for our ills, one and the same “Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus,” might from one element be capable of dying and also from the other be incapable. Therefore in the entire and perfect nature of very man was born very God, whole in what was his, whole in what was ours. By “ours” we mean what the Creator formed in us at the beginning and what he assumed in order to restore; for of that which the deceiver brought in, and man, thus deceived, admitted, there was not a trace in the Saviour; and the fact that he took on himself a share in our infirmities did not make him a partaker in our transgressions. He assumed “the form of a servant” without the defilement of sin.
 

Wandile

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Tzimis will say that Christ did not die.
This is unfair to Tzimis.

He is simply holding to a strict distinction between the two natures of Christ. That is, that the divine nature (He uses “the Word” to signify this) did not die but rather his humanity/flesh suffered death. This is the tome of St Leo verbatim. He as also shown that even St Athanasius taught similarly.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, died in the flesh.
 

Stephen Philips

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I don’t understand what it is you think the OO don’t have a concept of. If you think that Leo taught a new and correct theology, that was not in the earlier fathers, then it sounds like you are adopting the Roman Catholic view of development of dogma. The Oriental Orthodox Church rejected Chalcedon for Orthodox reasons
 
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Stephen Philips

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I think we should move this thread to OO discussion. There is a Coptic very scholarly priest on that forum named Fr Peter who I think can address whatever it is you object to better than me
 

Tzimis

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I don’t understand what it is you think the OO don’t have a concept of. If you think that Leo taught a new and correct theology, that was not in the earlier fathers, then it sounds like you are adopting the Roman Catholic view of development of dogma. The Oriental Orthodox Church rejected Chalcedon for Orthodox reasons
What Orthodox reasons? I'm Orthodox and so is that Council.
 

Stephen Philips

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What Orthodox reasons? I'm Orthodox and so is that Council.
I encourage you to read the article linked above. Here it is: http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/oriental-orthodox-rejection-chalcedon/ I can send you more material on this topic. That being said, I'm still not sure what it is that you think the Oriental Orthodox church doesn't have a concept of?
Is Mary the Mother of God or only the Mother of the body of the Word?
I think Mor Ephrem brought up a genuine concern about why your language may be problematic and may lead to Nestorianisim. This concern should be addressed as well.
 

Tzimis

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I encourage you to read the article linked above. Here it is: http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/oriental-orthodox-rejection-chalcedon/ I can send you more material on this topic. That being said, I'm still not sure what it is that you think the Oriental Orthodox church doesn't have a concept of?

I think Mor Ephrem brought up a genuine concern about why your language may be problematic and may lead to Nestorianisim. This concern should be addressed as well.
Fr. Peter and I have discussed this before. No need to go there, just do a search.

You still haven't answered my question.

Why do people die if they have no sin?
 

Stephen Philips

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Fr. Peter and I have discussed this before. No need to go there, just do a search.

You still haven't answered my question.

Why do people die if they have no sin?
That question has been addressed by multiple members of this forum already, and I am beginning to gain the impression that your goal is to debate, rather than to have a dialogue, or to seek an answer to a question. Seeing this, I will not comment again on this thread. In reality, I am theologically uneducated and absolutely not qualified to debate anyone.
 

Tzimis

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That question has been addressed by multiple members of this forum already, and I am beginning to gain the impression that your goal is to debate, rather than to have a dialogue, or to seek an answer to a question. Seeing this, I will not comment again on this thread. In reality, I am theologically uneducated and absolutely not qualified to debate anyone.
Nore am I, but it does beg the question.
 

Mor Ephrem

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I think Mor Ephrem brought up a genuine concern about why your language may be problematic and may lead to Nestorianisim. This concern should be addressed as well.
In a way, I respect Tzimis for demonstrating that Oriental Orthodox concerns about the Nestorian-leaning language of the Tome of Leo/Council of Chalcedon are as valid and substantial today as they were in the fifth century.
 

Tzimis

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In a way, I respect Tzimis for demonstrating that Oriental Orthodox concerns about the Nestorian-leaning language of the Tome of Leo/Council of Chalcedon are as valid and substantial today as they were in the fifth century.
I appreciate you as well. In fact, I kinda like you. Not in a gay way ofcourse. 😉
 

Mor Ephrem

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I appreciate you as well. In fact, I kinda like you. Not in a gay way ofcourse. 😉
You can like me in a gay way if you want. I wouldn’t reciprocate, but neither would I blame you for having excellent taste.
 

hecma925

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You can like me in a gay way if you want. I wouldn’t reciprocate, but neither would I blame you for having excellent taste.
A Greek being gay isn't a surprise to anyone.
 

LukeDM

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He's jealous he isn't smart. So he resorts to bulling tactics.
20,000 + posts full of cough! And not one donation.
Didn't realize people on this forum shamed others for not supporting it. That's a great way to make sure our guests don't want to join and contribute themselves.
 

Tzimis

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Didn't realize people on this forum shamed others for not supporting it. That's a great way to make sure our guests don't want to join and contribute themselves.
Whats a shame is not following the advice of St. Isaac you have listed in your signature.
 

LukeDM

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Whats a shame is not following the advice of St. Isaac you have listed in your signature.
Maybe I was just being compassionate toward Hecma.
 

Tzimis

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Maybe I was just being compassionate toward Hecma.
It seems you are locked in the know about peoples finances.
Besides, Hecma is a grown man. "I think" and seems quite capable at fighting his own battles.
 
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