How do "the Phanariotes" feel without us?

[srba]

Disclaimer: I used the term "Phanariotes" to refer to all adhering to the decisions of Patriarchate of Constantinopolis on church issues in Ukraine.

I would like to hear how do you feel without us, not accepting those decision(s)?

Is there something you lack now? Do you feel sorry?

Perhaps you feel just fine and do not notice that we are not together anymore?

Thank you for your input.

 

[Dominika]

Frankly I don't understand well the question...

 

[Tzimis]

How do you feel without us?
Hopefully these aren't installed outside your churches any time soon.

Moscow says it is first to launch large-scale metro facial ID payment system

Moscow's sprawling metro network on Friday launched a fare payment system using facial recognition technology at its more than 240 stations, an initiative the authorities said was the first of its kind in the world.

www.reuters.com

 

[rakovsky]

Frankly I don't understand well the question...

Srba is from the MP. He is asking forum users who follow Constantinople's decisions on Ukraine how they feel without having the MP, which includes him, in their communion.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

Disclaimer: I used the term "Phanariotes" to refer to all adhering to the decisions of Patriarchate of Constantinopolis on church issues in Ukraine.

I would like to hear how do you feel without us, not accepting those decision(s)?

Is there something you lack now? Do you feel sorry?

Perhaps you feel just fine and do not notice that we are not together anymore?

Thank you for your input.

I belong to the UOCofUSA, under the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew...

1. Is there something "I" lack now? Do I feel sorry?
Sorry for what?
Is there something lacking? Well... yes. I miss the Russians who used to attend Divine Liturgy at my parish. They've been told they may no longer come to my church, they even forbad their children from attending our Summer School program. So, yes... I lack seeing them, and teaching their children. Otherwise, there are no noticeable differences.

2. Perhaps you feel just fine and do not notice that we are not together anymore?
See answer #1.

Our Divine Liturgies are still as deep and fulfilling as ever. The message of the Gospel is still true and edifying. The sermons are thought provoking. Confession is always humbling, and the Eucharist is even more so.

I'm not sure what you are looking for in an answer.

 

[Ariend]

Hopefully these aren't installed outside your churches any time soon.

Moscow says it is first to launch large-scale metro facial ID payment system

Moscow's sprawling metro network on Friday launched a fare payment system using facial recognition technology at its more than 240 stations, an initiative the authorities said was the first of its kind in the world.

www.reuters.com

What does that have to do with the question?

 

[FULK NERA]

Srba is from the MP. He is asking forum users who follow Constantinople's decisions on Ukraine how they feel without having the MP, which includes him, in their communion.

But the break in communion isn’t complete. As Christians we should hate what schism does to all of us. One of the effects is it allows people to hate with less compunction.

 

[Alpo2]

Frankly I don't understand well the question...

+1

We're under EP but AFAIK there hasn't been much changes on relations between the Church of Finland and MP. Some Finnish pilgrims have even been allowed to commune in Russian monasteries near the border. The Ukrainian issue is very unfortunate but I don't think MP is anyhow farther or away from us. We're neighbours after all.

 

[Dominika]

Srba is from the MP. He is asking forum users who follow Constantinople's decisions on Ukraine how they feel without having the MP, which includes him, in their communion.

Well, personally I quite agree with these decisions (not 100% but to some extend). I belong to Polish Orthodox Church but have strong ties also with Antiochian Patriarchate. Both are in communion with Constantinople and MP so I don't see any issue, at least in religious lifes of my congregations...

 

[srba]

How do you feel without us?
...

Me personally, I feel great.

But the break in communion isn’t complete. As Christians we should hate what schism does to all of us. One of the effects is it allows people to hate with less compunction.

It was a nightmare for me while I was in communion with Patriarch Bartholomew, Metropolitan Zizioulas and Metropolitan (Archbishop?) Elpidoporos. Now, when I am not in communion with them, I feel a relief. While it may be truth what you said, in my case it is just the opposite. I don't care for them anymore.

 

[FULK NERA]

Me personally, I feel great.



It was a nightmare for me while I was in communion with Patriarch Bartholomew, Metropolitan Zizioulas and Metropolitan (Archbishop?) Elpidoporos. Now, when I am not in communion with them, I feel a relief. While it may be truth what you said, in my case it is just the opposite. I don't care for them anymore.

Do you mean you felt a painful dissonance about their words and actions, while knowing we commune of the same Body and Blood of Christ? If we are Christians we do not rejoice or luxuriate in schism. I strongly disagree with the Phanar as regards Ukraine, but also Estonia, Rue Daru, Czechia, and the Unites States, to varying degrees. But communion is not broken until it is mutual. The Russian Church does not commemorate Bartholomew but have not declared him or the Church he presides over as graceless, so there is still hope of healing, with repentance. Maybe his successor will work that out; I don’t see how deepening a divide against the largest body of Orthodox Christians is going to do the EP any favors in the long run.

 

[srba]

Do you mean you felt a painful dissonance about their words and actions,...

Yes, but also about the Theology of Metropolitan Zlizloulas. It was unbearable to me. Sorry, I'm just a sinner. I couldn't stand it.

Hopefully, there will be repentance and the return of their successors...some day before the Second Arrival. But I don't believe they should be accepted back into communion without demotion in the diptychs - let them go to 6th or 9th place.

Title added. --Ainnir

 

[Tzimis]

Yes, but also about the Theology of Mr. Zlizloulas. It was unbearable to me. Sorry, I'm just a sinner. I couldn't stand it.

Hopefully, there will be repentance and the return of their successors...some day before the Second Arrival. But I don't believe they should be accepted back into communion without demotion in the diptychs - let them go to 6th or 9th place.

What exactly bothers you about Metropolitan Zizioulas?
I actually enjoy his books. He thinks like an engineer would.

 

[srba]

What exactly bothers you about Metropolitan Zizioulas?
I actually enjoy his books. He thinks like an engineer would.

Nothing bothers me about him. His theology used to bother me, but not anymore, since he is like a custom-officer to me now.

I reject his relational ontology.

 

[FULK NERA]

Yes, but also about the Theology of Mr. Zlizloulas. It was unbearable to me. Sorry, I'm just a sinner. I couldn't stand it.

Hopefully, there will be repentance and the return of their successors...some day before the Second Arrival. But I don't believe they should be accepted back into communion without demotion in the diptychs - let them go to 6th or 9th place.

But they haven’t left the Orthodox Communion. Are you projecting that they will?

 

[srba]

But they haven’t left the Orthodox Communion. Are you projecting that they will?

They had.

Here is the official position of MP

Statement by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church concerning the encroachment of the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the canonical territory of the Russian Church

With profound pain the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church has taken the report of the Patriarchate of Constantinople published on October 11, 2018.

mospat.ru

...
Entering into communion with those who deviated into schism and the more so with those who are excommunicated from the Church is tantamount to deviation into schism and is severely condemned by the canons of the Holy Church: ‘If any one of the bishops, presbyters, or deacons, or any one in the Canon shall be found communicating with excommunicated persons, let him also be excommunicated as one who brings confusion on the order of the Church’ (Council of Antioch Canon 2; Apostolic Canons 10, 11).
...
To admit into communion schismatics and a person anathematized in other Local Church with all the ‘bishops’ and ‘clergy’ consecrated by him, the encroachment on somebody else’s canonical regions, the attempt to abandon its own historical decisions and commitments – all this leads the Patriarchate of Constantinople beyond the canonical space and, to our great grief, makes it impossible for us to continue the Eucharistic community with its hierarch, clergy and laity. From now on until the Patriarchate of Constantinople’s rejection of its anti-canonical decisions, it is impossible for all the clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church to concelebrate with the clergy of the Church of Constantinople and for the laity to participate in sacraments administered in its churches.
...

 

[Tzimis]

They had.

Here is the official position of MP

Statement by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church concerning the encroachment of the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the canonical territory of the Russian Church

With profound pain the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church has taken the report of the Patriarchate of Constantinople published on October 11, 2018.

mospat.ru

In 1990 Patriarch Alexei II handed to Metropolitan Filaret a tomos granting "independence in self government"
Does the current MP choose not to recognize it?

 

[srba]

In 1990 Patriarch Alexei II handed to Metropolitan Filaret a tomos granting "independence in self government"
Does the current MP choose not to recognize it?

Start your own thread about it. You may include the pool, just like I did here.

 

[srba]

I meant poll, not pool.

 

[Dominika]

They had.

Here is the official position of MP

Statement by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church concerning the encroachment of the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the canonical territory of the Russian Church

With profound pain the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church has taken the report of the Patriarchate of Constantinople published on October 11, 2018.

mospat.ru

Do you know well Orthodox ecclessiology?
If there are canonical Orthodox groups maintaining full communion with them, it's not a problem. I am giving example of my two Churches: Polish and Antioch. Both have Communionn with Moscow and Constantinople, meanwhile the latter one has Communion with the Ukrainian Church. So in consequence everybody there is in Communion. Or see conflict Antioch-Jerusalem; they are not now in Communion with each other, but via other Churches that maintain Communion with both of them - yes. And it's even official level, as unoficcialy (or semi-officialy) there is Communion between Antioch and Jerusalem, and between Russians and Greeks too. And all of this despite bad politics of both of them (in my experience, Russians are worse at least now, historically maybe it's more difficult). And BTW I can't get how you are in Serbia and your jurisdiction is MP?

 

[srba]

Do you know well Orthodox ecclessiology?
If there are canonical Orthodox groups maintaining full communion with them, it's not a problem. I am giving example of my two Churches: Polish and Antioch. Both have Communionn with Moscow and Constantinople, meanwhile the latter one has Communion with the Ukrainian Church. So in consequence everybody there is in Communion. ...

I am not sure if I know Orthodox ecclessiology well according to your standards, but I know I am not in communion with Patriarch of Constantinopolis Bartholomew. That's what my church says and I happily oblige.

.... And BTW I can't get how you are in Serbia and your jurisdiction is MP?

Do you know well Orthodox ecclessiology?

 

[LizaSymonenko]

Do you know well Orthodox ecclessiology?

She does. She is seminary trained.

I would wager that Serbia's adherence to the MP is based more along political lines than ecclesiastical. Completely understandable as humans tend to not be able to divide their secular and spiritual selves. It's human nature to cleave to those who defend one's nation, pride, etc.

 

[srba]

I would wager that Serbia's adherence to the MP..., etc.

As an American of Ukrainian origin your opinion is completely irrelevant for me. Besides, I am not Serbia. Serbia speaks for herself, I speak for myself.

 

[FULK NERA]

In 1990 Patriarch Alexei II handed to Metropolitan Filaret a tomos granting "independence in self government"
Does the current MP choose not to recognize it?

The autonomy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in relation to Moscow is not secret or controversial. In fact it is far more extensive than the fictive autocephaly granted Epiphany Dumenko‘s outfit by Patr. Bartholomew. Also, the 2018 Tomos enjoins upon anyone who recognizes it that the EP has ecclesiastical rights within the territory of the church recognizing the new Ukraine Tomos that effectively end that local church‘s autocephaly. That’s one reason why the Phanar is so unpopular.

 

[Dominika]

Do you know well Orthodox ecclessiology?

I think so, I'm graduated from two different Orthodox seminaries (theological institutes). And I'm also Serbian and Serbia is canonical territory for the Serbian Orthodox Church, though there is one MP parish in Belgrade - do you belong to it?

 

[Tzimis]

Start your own thread about it. You may include the pool, just like I did here.

I'm heading poolside with a margarita.

 

[hurrrah]

I think so, I'm graduated from two different Orthodox seminaries (theological institutes).

Can I ask - for what?

 

[srba]

I think so, I'm graduated from two different Orthodox seminaries (theological institutes).

I am curious about the reasoning for belonging to two different autocephalous churches? What is the ecclessiology behind it? Did you study that subject at those two different seminaries?

... there is one MP parish in Belgrade - do you belong to it?

I don't think it's a business of yours.

 

[srba]

I'm heading poolside with a margarita.

Everybody is entitled to a pool, though not everybody chooses to announce a live stream of poolside with a margarita. What is the importance of you heading the poolside with a margarita for this thread?

You failed to vote in the poll, take care not to fall into the pool.

 

[Dominika]

Can I ask - for what?

Why not? Actually it's a longer story, in short: I link two scientifi fields, Arabic studies and Orthodox theology, Firstly I graduated Arabic studies, that theology in Poland to have rights for teaching and better papers for being sent to Antioch to study theology there (as it was my big dream).

 

[Dominika]

I am curious about the reasoning for belonging to two different autocephalous churches? What is the ecclessiology behind it? Did you study that subject at those two different seminaries?

I do not belong to two different Churches. For now, I belong to the Polish Church, however for two years I was living in the Antiochian Church, with this Churhc I maininta relations and most probably in future I'll belong to this jurisdiction because of personal (and not only) links.

Yes, ecclessiology is one of the essential themes for various theological subjects: dogmatics, liturgics, sacramentology, relation with other Church, history etc.

I don't think it's a business of yours.

It's not but I find it as something strange and suspicious, especially seein what you post in this forum and in what way. And since I'm also Serbian, that's natural curiosity.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

As an American of Ukrainian origin your opinion is completely irrelevant for me.

Your comment speaks volumes as to whether you truly are Christian, or are merely playing at being one.

That's too bad... because as a person of whatever nationality you are, and to whichever Church you claim to belong, I would still respect your opinion, and strive to understand it.

 

[FULK NERA]

I'm heading poolside with a margarita.

I just hope that's a real margarita made with fresh lime juice and agave syrup and not some grotesque blendered concoction made with 'margarita mix'. Got me?

 

[srba]

Your comment speaks volumes as to whether you truly are Christian, or are merely playing at being one.

That's too bad... because as a person of whatever nationality you are, and to whichever Church you claim to belong, I would still respect your opinion, and strive to understand it.

Forgive me, I am a sinner.

I should have added that it relates to this specific topic only, but it was rude and uncalled anyway. Again, I'm sorry.

 

[Alpo2]

though there is one MP parish in Belgrade

Why is that? Is it a metochion?

 

[Ainnir]

Thread locked pending moderator review. --Ainnir