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How Does Decisionmaking at GOARCH Assemblies Work?

Tzimis

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No, but someone needs to be first. Otherwise it will splinter the church.
If the structure forces them to meet face to face. They will work things out. So first amongst equals is a viable title. When a meeting is called and the invited doesn't show up, it's a break in canon law.
If and when they show t
And it isn't breaking canon law to grant autocephaly without said meeting?
The MP deserved it because he never showed up and the EP has the power to do so.
 

hurrrah

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Gloria Tibi Trinitas, look who you're trying to talk to:
Menas17: I'm a little confused, are you insinuating that Christ was Greek?
Tzimis: Technically he was. If you go into his mothers lineage. She has greek blood.
 

Tzimis

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What would you do if you were left at the altar?
 

rakovsky

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No, but someone needs to be first. Otherwise it will splinter the church.
This is one of the Roman Catholic arguments justifying Papal Supremacy over all Christians. They claim that the Pope's vertical supremacy is needed to unite all Christians and that otherwise we have discord. But ironically, it was the medieval Pope's claims of power over the whole Church that caused the schism with the Eastern Patriarchs who did not agree with the Pope's assertions of power. A millenium after the Great Schism with Rome, the same phenomena, assertions, results, and irony are now at hand with Pat. Bartholomew's divisive assertions of supreme power over all Christians.
 

rakovsky

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The MP deserved it because he never showed up and the EP has the power to do so.
Recognizing schismatic groups is not supposed to depend on other churches "deserving punishment."

When the Greek Orthodox like Mark of Ephesus rejected the Pope's claims of power over them, did the Greek Orthodox "deserve" for the Pope to recognize the Greek Catholics in Greece as the only canonical Church?
 

Stinky

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Stinky did not say that. Stinky quoted Tzimis and only included the part "Otherwise it will splinter the church." Emphasizing that is the result of EP actions.
 

rakovsky

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Stinky did not say that. Stinky quoted Tzimis and only included the part "Otherwise it will splinter the church." Emphasizing that is the result of EP actions.
Right. That is why I put Tzimis' quote in a quote box inside your quote box.
 

FULK NERA

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Opus from GOARCH helpfully pointed to the 2020 conference documents, and asked which powers of Abp. Elpidophoros I am worried about. I answered that the root of my concern is the EP's assertions of vertical supremacy over Orthodoxy and his divisive decision about Ukraine, and Opus simply didn't reply anything.
The pretensions of the Phanar have jack to do with how GOARCH is governed. GOARCH has a Charter, which was put into abeyance (whatever that means) by the newly-elected Archbishop, who was appointed by the Phanar without consulting (rather ignoring) the recommendations of the Archdiocesan Council. As an Exarchate of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the North American Archdiocese receives orders and staff from above. It does not have direct input to any Patriarchal policies.
 

Tzimis

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Recognizing schismatic groups is not supposed to depend on other churches "deserving punishment."

When the Greek Orthodox like Mark of Ephesus rejected the Pope's claims of power over them, did the Greek Orthodox "deserve" for the Pope to recognize the Greek Catholics in Greece as the only canonical Church?
MP never showed up to discuss the topic. At least send a delegation. He severed himself.
This isn't the same scenario and St Mark wasn't arguing over power. It was the a theological break in communion.
If anyone is breaking the with canons its the MP. Show up, send a delegation, whatever.
MP is flat out wrong.
 

rakovsky

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As an Exarchate of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the North American Archdiocese receives orders and staff from above.
GOARCH's 2018 assembly took votes on the scope of powers to give its Archdiocesan Council and took votes on similar issues, and the 2020 assembly report that I linked to says that the decisions by the 2018 council were all implemented. Doesn't this mean that GOARCH's membership at large has decisionmaking power over some important issues regarding the rulership and management of GOARCH?
 

rakovsky

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"When the Greek Orthodox like Mark of Ephesus rejected the Pope's claims of power over them, did the Greek Orthodox "deserve" for the Pope to recognize the Greek Catholics in Greece as the only canonical Church? "
This isn't the same scenario and St Mark wasn't arguing over power.
The issue of Church power was one of the issues dividing the West and East during the great Schism.

Quotes from Mark of Ephesus:
"It is impossible to recall peace without dissolving the cause of the schism— the primacy of the Pope exalting himself equal to God."

"Our Head, Christ our God... does not tolerate that the bond of love be taken from us entirely. " (1)
  1. Mineva, Evelina (2000). The Hymnographic Opus of Mark Eugenikos (in Greek). Athens.
SOURCE:

Another quote:
And for us, the Pope is as one of the Patriarchs, and that alone—if he be Orthodox; while they, with great gravity, proclaim him “Vicar of Christ, Father and Teacher of all Christians.” May they be more fortunate than their Father, who are also like him. For he does not greatly prosper, having an anti-pope who is the cause of sufficient unpleasantness; and they are not happy to imitate him.



The Traditional EO understanding, as I understand it, is that the leading Patriarch, be he the Pope or the EP, is equal to the other Patriarchs, not "Father and teacher of all Christians" as the EP is now practically styling himself to be.
 

Opus118

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Opus from GOARCH helpfully pointed to the 2020 conference documents, and asked which powers of Abp. Elpidophoros I am worried about. I answered that the root of my concern is the EP's assertions of vertical supremacy over Orthodoxy and his divisive decision about Ukraine, and Opus simply didn't reply anything.
My time is limited. I will reply at some point. One of the things that endeared me to you was that you would reply to posts directed to you years after the fact.
 

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Next time show up at the councils.
Haha, ironic that now it's Patriarch Kyrill, Patriarch John X, etc. that are calling for a pan-Orthodox council to resolve the matter, and Patriarch Bartholomew won't consider it.
 

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I’m not MP. I was EP then left and joined the Antiochians. This is not just a “muhh MP is mean to EP”. There are orthodox from other jurisdictions that are not happy with what the EP has done
Yeah I know, I just wanted to do a rant and get it out of my system. I think it's completely understandable why the MP broke Communion with the EP. I just hope it doesn't splinter the Orthodox Church into a Venn Diagram.
 

Tzimis

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This cannot be any more false.
It's not false. ok, it's just as false as all the canons.
Let's disregard all of them.
See what kind of church we are left with.
Dont be bitter because the law isn't on your side.
 
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Tzimis

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You're goning to fall apart without us. You weren't even a church though communism.
 

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So when Patriarch Bartholomew said, "Orthodoxy can't exist without the Ecumenical Patriarchate", I suppose some people actually listened to him. How sad.
 

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I refer you to the canons I posted earlier.
I do not think that those canons entail what you say that they do.
One of the main ones that the EP quotes is Canon 28 of Chalcedon, which says that the bishops of three specific named dioceses that are among the barbarians should be ordained by Constantinople. The text says:
in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople;
The EP misreads this to mean that bishops of all "barbarian" lands (eg. Russia and now the Americas) get ordained by Constantinople.

An article explaining this canon and the EP's misreading of it are here:
 

rakovsky

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Yeah I know, I just wanted to do a rant and get it out of my system. I think it's completely understandable why the MP broke Communion with the EP. I just hope it doesn't splinter the Orthodox Church into a Venn Diagram.
Only the EP and some or all of the Churches of Alexandria, Greece, and Cyprus recognize the OCU.
The MP only suspended communion with the EP, and with those hierarchs of the Pat. of Alexandria that recognize the OCU, and with some or all of the Church of Greece and the Church of Cyprus.
 

rakovsky

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You're goning to fall apart without us. You weren't even a church though communism.
This is not the case for the MP even in the canonical hierarchical sense of succession.
Pat. Tikhon, who died in 1925, appointed Peter of Krutitsa as his successor as Patriarch, and Peter, who died in 1938, appointed Met. Sergius as his successor. Peter of Krutitsa's jailer noted that Peter pointed out to him that as a result, the authorities would not extinguish the patriarchal succession. The Russian Church's synod appointed Met. Sergius as Patriarch in 1943.
 
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This is not the case for the MP even in the canonical hierarchical sense of succession.
Pat. Tikhon, who died in 1925, appointed Peter of Krutitsa as his successor as Patriarch, and Peter, who died in 1938, appointed Met. Sergius as his successor. Peter of Krutitsa's jailer noted that Peter pointed out to him that as a result, the authorities would not extinguish the patriarchal succession. The Russian Church's synod appointed Met. Sergius as Patriarch in 1943.
It's also funny that they use canon 28 to justify this, since the canon says Old Rome has the same prerogatives of Constantinople. If the Church can't survive without Constantinople than it can't survive without Rome either.
 

rakovsky

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So when Patriarch Bartholomew said, "Orthodoxy can't exist without the Ecumenical Patriarchate", I suppose some people actually listened to him. How sad.
His new ecclesiology is that his see is the defining uniting point of Orthodoxy, analogous to the See of Canterbury in Anglicanism or the See of Peter in Rome, in effect making us the "Constantinopolitan Communion."

This transparent ecclesiology can be easily disproved either with history or with current relations. Historically, there were cases when those whom the Church today judges to be orthodox were not in communion with the patriarch of Constantinople like during the Acacian schism. Further, since the EP recognizes and communes the MP while the MP suspends communion with the EP, it shows in practical terms that the EP is not the central definitive essential uniting point in Orthodoxy.
 

rakovsky

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It's also funny that they use canon 28 to justify this, since the canon says Old Rome has the same prerogatives of Constantinople. If the Church can't survive without Constantinople than it can't survive without Rome either.
Right. If Rome and Constantinople have the same prerogatives, then how can one of them be the single lone vertical supreme head of all Christians? Logically, the canon is teaching a "first among equals" ecclesiology, not a "first without equals" one like the EP is now promoting.
 

Tzimis

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Right. If Rome and Constantinople have the same prerogatives, then how can one of them be the single lone vertical supreme head of all Christians? Logically, the canon is teaching a "first among equals" ecclesiology, not a "first without equals" one like the EP is now promoting.
The Ep isn't promoting a first without equals. He has the right to call a council when a dispute is raised, which The MP completely disregarded.
The council went on without him and the Tomos was handed down. It's that simple.
 

rakovsky

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The Ep isn't promoting a first without equals.
It sounds like you oppose the "First without equals" anti-Orthodox ideology. I am glad to hear that, Tzimis.

Unfortunately, Abp. Elpidophoros whom the EP appointed over GOARCH takes this position:
THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH: FIRST WITHOUT EQUALS by Metropolitan Elpidophoros (Lambriniadis) of Bursa

And the EP posted the "First without equals" document on its website:

The Patriarch of Constantinople website says:


Primus sine paribus...
As the Archbishop of Constantinople he is 'one among' equals,
as the Patriarch of Constantinople he is 'first among' equals, and
as the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople he is 'first without' equal

In the photo they are showing him raised on a platform above the other Patriarchs like he is the Pope. Patriarch Kyril is in the photo. I think Patriarch Kyril does not agree with this description of Orthodoxy ecclesiology.
 

rakovsky

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He has the right to call a council when a dispute is raised, which The MP completely disregarded.
Every Patriarch has the "right" to call a council. Plenty of times in history not all patriarchs attended councils. Is there a canon saying that the EP can force all patriarchs to attend any one that he wants to? Not that I am aware of.
The council went on without him and the Tomos was handed down. It's that simple.
The EP's regional council "went on without the MP" and the council did not decide to "hand down" the Tomos.
 

FULK NERA

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I refer you to the canons I posted earlier.
That’s an absurdly peculiar reading that doesn’t have any currency outside the precincts of the Phanar, as it only benefits them in their search for relevance which evaporated with the end of the Ottoman Empire that gave the Rûm Milet Başı some chures to run and some dioceses to pay him tithes.
 

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You're goning to fall apart without us. You weren't even a church though communism.
The hell they weren’t! Your own Ecumenical Patriarch told St. Tikhon to stand down and let the Living Church take the fore. They gave the Renovationists full faith amd credit.
 

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Yeah I know, I just wanted to do a rant and get it out of my system. I think it's completely understandable why the MP broke Communion with the EP. I just hope it doesn't splinter the Orthodox Church into a Venn Diagram.
No it won’t because the OCA stands in the middle. This is Orthodox leadership.
Communique of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America
SYOSSET, NY [OCA]

synod

The Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, meeting under the presidency of His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon via teleconference, on Tuesday, September 28, 2021, issued the following communique:

At numerous points in recent years, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America has reiterated its commitment to the unity of Orthodox Christians in North America, in fulfillment of the charge given to the Orthodox Church in America in the Tomos of Autocephaly, the witness of the canonical tradition, and the command of the Lord Himself, who wills that His followers be united together in a bond of love as He and His Heavenly Father are.

This Sunday, October 3, prior to the meeting of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops that will begin next week in Washington, DC, the Executive Committee of the Assembly will concelebrate the Divine Liturgy at St. Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Washington. With one accord, the Holy Synod rejoices that His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon will concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with the heads of the Orthodox jurisdictions in the United States and members of the Executive Committee: His Eminence Archbishop Elpidophoros of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, His Eminence Metropolitan Joseph of the Antiochian Christian Archdiocese of North America, His Grace Bishop Irinej of the Eastern American Diocese of the Serbian Orthodox Church, His Eminence Metropolitan Nicolae of the Romanian Orthodox Metropolia of the Americas, and His Grace Bishop Saba of the Georgian Apostolic Orthodox Church in North America; together with His Eminence Metropolitan Gregory of Nyssa, Secretary of the Assembly.

The Holy Synod also gives thanks to God and confirms the decision of His Beatitude to accept the invitation from the Moscow Patriarchate to travel with a delegation in November to Moscow, in order to celebrate the seventy-fifth birthday jubilee of His Holiness Patriarch Kirill. In doing so, the Holy Synod reaffirms the fundamental relationship between the Orthodox Church in America and the Russian Orthodox Church, and the warm ties that these two Churches share.

The Holy Synod states once again, unequivocally, that it desires and intends to maintain full communion with all the universally recognized autocephalous Orthodox Churches. Further, the Holy Synod exhorts the clergy and faithful of the Orthodox Church in America fervently to offer prayers that the unity and communion of Orthodox Christians throughout the world be restored, and that all schisms be resolved according to the canonical tradition and discipline of the Church.
 

hurrrah

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The Holy Synod states once again, unequivocally, that it desires and intends to maintain full communion with all the universally recognized autocephalous Orthodox Churches.
Trying to sit on two chairs? Well-well...
 

rakovsky

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The hell they weren’t! Your own Ecumenical Patriarch told St. Tikhon to stand down and let the Living Church take the fore. They gave the Renovationists full faith amd credit.
Fulk,
BTW, even if the EP switched its recognition to the Renovationists, it doesnt actually mean that the MP stopped existing.
1. St. Tikhon deliberately set up a backup plan for the eventuality of the lead hierarch being incapacitated by selecting a successor, St. Peter of Krutitsa, and that successor in turn had a selected successor, who became patriarch.
2. Even though the EP might not have recognized the MP at that time, probably others like the JP and Serbs did. ROCOR considered St Tikhon and St Peter the heads of the MP. Pat. Sergius considered them his predecessors, as does the MP today. Met. Peter of Krutitsa died in 1938. Rocor considers the catacomb church to be the legitimate succesor of Met. Peter. The OCA shares the MP's POV regarding the succession in those years. That is, from the standpoint of these churches, the Russian church did not cease to exist.
3. The EP recognizes the MP as legitimate instead of the Renovationists. I am not sure when exactly the EP switched recognition back to the MP. From the EP's perspective, either you have to say that the EP made a mistake for about 20 years from the 1920s to 1940s, or you have to say that the Renovationists were the legitimate Russian church in those decades. As I understand it, some renovationists reconciled with the MP and some other ones did not reconcile.
 

hurrrah

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From the EP's perspective, either you have to say that the EP made a mistake for about 20 years from the 1920s to 1940s,
Not for the first and not for the last time.
 
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