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How does GOARCH see UOC-KP parishes in the US?

rakovsky

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I wonder how the CP parishes in the US are treating the handful of KP parishes in the US now that the CP has recognized the KP hierarchs, including "KP" Filaret.

The Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine says, "In 2016 the Vicariate listed 16 parishes and missions in the USA and 2 in Canada."

After P. Bartholomew recognized KP Filaret as a metropolitan and not a patriarch, and recognized the OCU, KP Filaret left the OCU. Then a Ukrainian court announced that the KP was dissolved, but then KP Filaret removed his signature from the dissolution:
On 20 June 2019, a small number of Pro-Filaret UOC (former UOC-KP) members—including Filaret—left the OCU after a local UOC-KP council.
...

On 11 November 2019, the Court of Appeal of the District Administrative Court of Kyiv confirmed legality of the process of liquidation of the UOC-KP.[66][67]
...
In January 2020, the UOC-KP announced that Filaret had officially withdrawn his signature from 15 December 2018 act of dissolution of the UOC-KP.
OCU representatives had a meeting on July 8, 2019 (after KP Filaret left the OCU) with CP representatives on the status of KP Vicariate parishes in the US, but it didn't conclude anything:

“Archpriest” Bogdan Zgoba, secretary of the UOC-KP vicariate in the United States, said in February that KP Vicariate parishes in the US won't become part of the OCU because the CP's Tomos to the OCU only gives the OCU jurisdiction in Ukraine.
spzh.news/en/news/77483-vikariat-upc-kp-v-ssha-i-kanade-u-pcu-net-prav-na-nashi-prihody

In Feb. 2021, KP Filaret issued a statement reiterating that the KP parishes in the US are not under the OCU:

The KP has a cathedral in Bloomingdale, IL, considering itself as part of the "Vicariate" of the KP in the US and considers KP Filaret as their hierarch:

Here is a list of their US KP Vicariate parishes on the Vicariate website:

KP US Patriarchal cathedral is in Philadelphia and their page is below, but not on the list above:
 

LizaSymonenko

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They were, and remain uncanonical.

Out of pride, they refuse to come under the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (from which they splintered) and per the Tomos they are not permitted under the OCU (which they would love to join)... therefore, they created this vicariate in order to belong to someone...

It is sad situation.
 

rakovsky

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They were, and remain uncanonical.
Liza,
Thanks for your reply. What you said about their history is correct. I don't understand why the Constantinople Patriarchate (CP), including the UOC-USA, would not be in automatic communion with the KP Vicariate once the CP reinstalled the KP hierarchs.

In the case of the MP and the OCA, the CP's reasoning is that it recognizes the MP as canonical and that it therefore by extension recognizes the OCA's hierarchs and clergy as therefore canonical, even though it does not recognize the OCA per se as a legitimate jurisdiction.

Here is some more of the chronological of the CP's stance on the KP:
In October 2018, the CP "reinstated" the KP and claimed that the CP was now asserting jurisdiction over Ukraine. I don't know if this means that it recognized all of the KP bishops and clergy at that point. But apparently the CP's position was that although it recognized the KP hierarch Filaret and recognized the KP's sacraments as valid, it did NOT recognize the KP itself, which seems like a bit of a strange contradiction, ie. it sounds like a contradiction in recognizing a church's sacraments as valid without recognizing that church or its leaders as valid:
It was later clarified that the Ecumenical Patriarchate considered Filaret "the former metropolitan of Kyiv"[35][36][37][38] and Makariy "the former Archbishop of Lviv"[36][37] and, on 2 November 2018, the Ecumenical Patriarchate did not recognise the UAOC or the UOC-KP and their leaders.[39][40] The Ecumenical Patriarchate declared that it recognised sacraments performed by the UOC-KP and the UAOC as valid.[41]

SOURCES:

39. "Константинополь: "Надеемся, Москва обратится к разуму". Подробности беседы". BBC News Русская служба. 2 November 2018. Retrieved 3 November 2018.
40. Cazabonne, Emma (6 November 2018). "BBC interview with Archbishop Job of Telmessos on the Ukrainian question". orthodoxie.com. Retrieved 7 November 2018.
The UOC-KP and UOAC united into the OCU on 15 December 2018.

Then on January 5, 2019, the CP gave a Tomos of Autocephaly to the OCU. Based on the CP's reasoning then towards the MP and OCA, apparently the CP would recognize the OCU/KP parishes in the US as a result of the CP recognizing the OCU.

The OCU's Tomos from the CP says that the OCU does not have any canonical parishes outside Ukraine. However, based on the CP's treatment of the MP and OCA, the mere fact that the CP does not recognize another Church (eg. MP or "OCU") as having jurisdiction in the US does not automatically prevent the CP from recognizing that Church's clergy (eg. MP clergy in the US) or "daughter" churches in the US (eg. OCA).

Then in June 2019, the KP leader Filaret left the OCU, and in February of this year, KP parishes in the US said that they are staying under Filaret and not joining the OCU.

Does the OCU recognize the KP parishes in the US as legitimate, or have they declared them "schismatic"?
 

rakovsky

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And about how many OCU clergy and parishes in Ukraine belong to the OCU vs. the remnants of the UOC-KP? Did few of KP Filaret's members leave the OCU with him?
 

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Does the OCU recognize the KP parishes in the US as legitimate? Well, since the KP is non-canonical, than so are they.

Did the KP members leave the OCU with "P" Filaret? You must understand, and I think you already know.... that the schismatic KP is very tiny. Only his diehard friends and followers are with him. Everyone else has happily joined the OCU, or remained with the MP. KP is almost inconsequential at this point.
 

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Does the OCU recognize the KP parishes in the US as legitimate? Well, since the KP is non-canonical, than so are they.

Did the KP members leave the OCU with "P" Filaret? You must understand, and I think you already know.... that the schismatic KP is very tiny. Only his diehard friends and followers are with him. Everyone else has happily joined the OCU, or remained with the MP. KP is almost inconsequential at this point.
A friend who is Episcopalian attended some services recently at a KP chapel in California‘s Gold Country. It’s not an ethnic place, the priest is American.
 

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Does the OCU recognize the KP parishes in the US as legitimate? Well, since the KP is non-canonical, than so are they.
According to Wikipedia:
On 4 February 2020, the synod of the OCU decided that Filaret remained part of the episcopate of the OCU, but ... also stated that the bishops consecrated by Filaret had no valid holy order.[148] The press service of the UOC-KP said the decision to remove Filaret from the Holy Synod of the OCU was non-canonical since he was already the primate of the UOC-KP. The press release added that a similar decision to declare Filaret's ordination null and void had also been taken by the Moscow Patriarchate and that after the Moscow Patriarchate's "ban", the overwhelming majority of the OCU, including its primate, had been consecrated by Filaret and other archpastors.
The UOC-KP's implication in the last sentence above makes sense, as it alludes to the irony of the OCU's synod declaring KP Filaret's consecrations invalid.

That is, chronologically:
(1) In 1992, the MP defrocked KP Filaret,
(2) KP Filaret consecrated the OCU Primate Epiphany, and most other OCU clergy,
(3) In Oct. 2018, Constantinople "reinstated" KP Filaret,
(4) In January 2019, Constantinople gave a "Tomos of Autocephaly" to the OCU.
(5) In February 2020, the OCU declared the consecrations made by KP FIlaret invalid.

The implication is that the OCU in effect invalidated their own consecrations as clergy, performed in 1992-2018. It would have made more sense at least if the OCU had selectively defrocked the KP clergy who had left the OCU with KP Filaret, because that way they would not be in effect invalidating their own consecrations by KP. FIlaret.

The OCU clergy could try to counterargue that they were not invalidating their own consecrations because they were relying on CP Bartholomew's recognition of them. But while it's true that CP Bartholomew was recognizing the OCU, he did not perform consecrations of them. Rather, he could only have been recognizing the OCU's past consecrations by KP Filaret as valid, like under principles of "ekonomia." However, by issuing a blanket revocation of KP Filaret's consecrations, they would still be revoking their own as a matter of logic, since CP Bartholomew never gave them separate consecrations beyond those that they had.

By analogy, if someone joined an EO Church by Chrismation and the EO Church later "invalidated" the convert's original baptism, the implication could be that the person would require rebaptism. I guess that this is not real clear though, because the EO Church itself is not definite and clear on the religious principles by which they accept Catholics and traditional Trinitarian Protestants by Chrismation, ie. whether the acceptance by Chrismation is based on the original baptism as being "valid" or not.
 

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Does the OCU recognize the KP parishes in the US as legitimate? Well, since the KP is non-canonical, than so are they.

Did the KP members leave the OCU with "P" Filaret? You must understand, and I think you already know.... that the schismatic KP is very tiny. Only his diehard friends and followers are with him. Everyone else has happily joined the OCU, or remained with the MP. KP is almost inconsequential at this point.
Unfortunately not, given that the OCU is uncanonical.
 

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But you are mistaken. The OCU actually is canonical. ;)
The canonicity of The mew creation of Patr. Bartholomew is far from universally recognized; it is only canonical in the eyes of the EP. It‘s controversial even in Greek-run Local Churches and outright unrecognized everywhere else. So no, Epiphany Dumenko is not the canonical Metropolitan of Ukraine.
 

rakovsky

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As a matter of logic, most Orthodox will disagree that the OCU is canonical. A defender of the OCU's position must either argue that the CP has jurisdiction over the whole orthodox world, as the CP claims, or must narrowly say that he has specific jurisdiction over Ukraine. And most Orthodox disagree with both of those arguments.

It seems like practically a stalemate ATM in the US. MP and CP won't concelebrate in the US. And only the CP in the US is going to give fraternal greetings to OCU representatives visiting the US. SCOBA won't. OCU can concelebrate in Greece, maybe Cyprus, CP parishes worldwide, Africa, and Turkey. That's it.

The MP has about 1/3-1/2 of EO parishes in Ukraine. The MP could give in on the topic and recognize the OCU like the MP recognizes some other non-MP Churches in the Baltics. But the MP seems pretty serious this time.

The OCU doesn't look like it is going to join the MP, and it would be a big policy change for the CP to change its stance on the OCU. Conceivably, a new CP could revoke its recognition of the OCU, and the problem could end that way.

I think that other churches are not really interested pragmatically in the CP's logic that says that the CP has supreme authority over all EOs. Maybe someone in the US is OK with the CP's claim of universal authority if they are already under the CP. But understandably, KP Filaret is not OK with that. And even though I don't particularly sympathize with the OCU, the CP's Tomos to them seems to have unfair, self-aggregating demands, like how they need to get chrism from the CP and can't have parishes outside Ukraine.

Rome had power over Western Europe, and this gave it power for its demands to last a long time. The CP has some favoritism in the western world in geopolitics, but that is not the same as the CP's place in the Byzantine empire, and even then, the CP did not portray itself as the supreme head of all EO Churches, AFAIK. In the past, there were periods when the CP was in schism for a long time, like during the Council of Florence's period. So we could be stuck with a schism between the CP and the MP for a long time. Who knows.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Give it time... every time a new Church is created, there is always friction. Someone's feelings, and sense of pride and power, is going to be hurt.

We, Orthodox Christians, ought to leave these matters to our hierarchs. Our days should be filled with trying to be the good Orthodox Christians that we are. Instead of demeaning and trying to discount the faith of our brothers and sisters, we ought to be helping the needy, feeing the hungry, etc. That is what we are called to do...

Please don't answer if you have or haven't.... it is none of my business... however, consider making a donation to a homeless shelter... if you are able bodied, volunteer at a soup kitchen... purchase new clothing for a family in need.... if you have little funds, pray for people... it is free.
 

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But you are mistaken. The OCU actually is canonical. ;)
No, the Ethnarch of the Phanar has actually cheated you. The OCA remains uncanonical, if not heretical. He just joined them in their schism and heresy, marrying theirs to his own.
 

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No, the Ethnarch of the Phanar has actually cheated you. The OCA remains uncanonical, if not heretical. He just joined them in their schism and heresy, marrying theirs to his own.
EP is five steps ahead of the MP. MP will become isolated and alone, for thinking he has become thrird rome. Its only a matter of time. The peripheral churches all pull away from him.
 

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No, the Ethnarch of the Phanar has actually cheated you. The OCA remains uncanonical, if not heretical. He just joined them in their schism and heresy, marrying theirs to his own.
I will leave it up to God to figure out.
I am grateful that there are people who still believe in Him, worship Him, wish to serve Him. The world is a better place for having Christians in it.
Glory be to God!
 

ialmisry

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EP is five steps ahead of the MP. MP will become isolated and alone, for thinking he has become thrird rome. Its only a matter of time. The peripheral churches all pull away from him.
"The peripheral churches"? You mean the Greek dominated churches?

The EP (Ethnarch of the Phanar) is only many steps ahead of the MP down the road to perdition, which direction the MP isn't going anyways.
 

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Tzimis

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Tzimis, denigrating clergy is not permitted here, especially not the Patriarch -- of any jurisdiction. 200 points for 2 weeks. Please appeal via PM if you wish. Thanks. --Ainnir
"The peripheral churches"? You mean the Greek dominated churches?

The EP (Ethnarch of the Phanar) is only many steps ahead of the MP down the road to perdition, which direction the MP isn't going anyways.
Once he resumes taking his meds again, he will realize the faults of the regime.
 

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P. Filaret is not a part of the OCU... so your point makes no sense... attempting to compare canonical Orthodox loving each other... while the OCU (supposedly non-canonical) associates with the Greek Catholics.

You just like rocking the boat... rock on... Christ will still the storm.
 

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EP is five steps ahead of the MP. MP will become isolated and alone, for thinking he has become thrird rome. Its only a matter of time. The peripheral churches all pull away from him.

Sure, sure. MP will be "isolated" and "alone", while the Phanar will flourish in its stronghold on Bosphorus. Everybody will embrace "the first without equals" who is also "the first among equals".
 

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Once he resumes taking his meds again, he will realize the faults of the regime.
I didn't know that Patriarch Bartholomew is taking medications. :unsure:
 

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OCU vs. KP relations are a drama.

A big majority of the current OCU clergy made up the bulk of the "OUC-KP", and KP Filaret was the head of the UOC-KP from 1995 to 2018. Then in 2018, the OUC-KP practically reformed itself as the "OCU". Next, the OCU practically rejected KP Filaret, without going as far as to defrock him. Then KP Filaret rejected the OCU and is overseeing a "rump" remnant of the UOC-KP that left the OCU.
 

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ialmisry, denigrating a Patriarch of any jurisdiction is not permitted here. You've received 200 points for 2 weeks. If you wish to appeal, please do so via PM. Thanks. --Ainnir
Once he resumes taking his meds again, he will realize the faults of the regime.
So you are saying that the EP has been off his psychtropics?
 

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Lots of people have to take medications. Myself among them. It’s for the sake of my health.
 

ialmisry

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P. Filaret is not a part of the OCU... so your point makes no sense
As much sense as this:
I am grateful that there are people who still believe in Him, worship Him, wish to serve Him.
... attempting to compare canonical Orthodox loving each other...

while the OCU (supposedly non-canonical) associates with the Greek Catholics.

You just like rocking the boat...
Not at all. Just like standing firm on the Rock. And not the Phanar's sinking sand.
rock on... Christ will still the storm.
подай Господи! Grant it O Lord!
 

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So you are saying that the EP has been off his psychtropics?
I don't know why you're so butthurt over the EP's actions. i sense some extreme hostilities in your posts. I think you should tame it down a little.
 

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I don't know why you're so butthurt over the EP's actions. i sense some extreme hostilities in your posts. I think you should tame it down a little.
I think you should omit the profane words from the polemics.

Patriarch Bartholomew managed to expose not only himself, but the Patriarchate he is currently running.

Demotion in the diptychs is about six centuries late already. We should not be letting it to became overdue even longer, if they decide to repent and return at all.
 

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No, the Ethnarch of the Phanar has actually cheated you. The OCA remains uncanonical, if not heretical. He just joined them in their schism and heresy, marrying theirs to his own.
What are you talking about? The OCA hasn’t joined anyone’s schism and remains free of the Phanar’s meddling. Metr. Tikhon has not concelebrated with any ukie schismatics and will not be seen to do so in future.
 
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I think you should omit the profane words from the polemics.

Patriarch Bartholomew managed to expose not only himself, but the Patriarchate he is currently running.

Demotion in the diptychs is about six centuries late already. We should not be letting it to became overdue even longer, if they decide to repent and return at all.
The Phanar has offended the Moscow patriarchate and those of us who care about canonicity amd ethics, but they have not left the church. Moscow might be totally justified to take further action, such as calling Patr. Bartholomew and his works anathema, but the EP remains recognized as such, in its traditional place of privilege. My opinion, which is not shared by anyone of authority or real probity, is that the EP ought to be busted down to its actual standing in the Diptychs, because it cannot fulfill its function as Primus inter pares and has shown decisively how inept it is at keeping the Orthodox Communion unified. If this was a democracy, he’d be voted out of office but as we know it isn’t and he won’t be curtailed. We just have to put up with it, powerless to receive any better leadership. It’s a damn shame.
 

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I think you should omit the profane words from the polemics.

Patriarch Bartholomew managed to expose not only himself, but the Patriarchate he is currently running.

Demotion in the diptychs is about six centuries late already. We should not be letting it to became overdue even longer, if they decide to repent and return at all.
I think that the MP now has to deal with it.
 

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I think that the MP now has to deal with it.
The Church herself with deal with it.

I am a native Serbian speaker. I have read more than one article in Serbian explaining that "we should get used to the fact that Patriarchate of Constintanopolis is no more...". That is a good start, my friend.
 

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The Church herself with deal with it.

I am a native Serbian speaker. I have read more than one article in Serbian explaining that "we should get used to the fact that Patriarchate of Constintanopolis is no more...". That is a good start, my friend.
Many have tried and failed.
 

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Isa, srba, etc. your hostility towards a patriarch is in poor taste.

You may have your reasons to disagree with a hierarch, but, you still need to keep it civil. I pray the Lord doesn't judge you as harshly as you judge your fellow man.
 

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Isa, srba, etc. your hostility towards a patriarch is in poor taste.

You may have your reasons to disagree with a hierarch,...
He is not my hierarch. I am not in communion with him. If that's harsh, so be it. I will be judged justly, anyway.
 

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Isa, srba, etc. your hostility towards a patriarch is in poor taste.[/QUOTE}
Pope St. Cyril's zeal against the EP Nestorius.
You may have your reasons to disagree with a hierarch, but, you still need to keep it civil. I pray the Lord doesn't judge you as harshly as you judge your fellow man.
Silence means consent. The Vatican condemns EP St. Photios the Great because he would not keep silent at the Vatican's pretensions dragging the Church into schism and heresy.
 

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Many have tried and failed.
Setting up a supreme pontificate instead of the Head of the Church. Yes, EP Bartholomew is foolish enough not to learn from the mistakes of others, and instead emulate them.
 

ialmisry

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What are you talking about? The OCA hasn’t joined anyone’s schism and remains free of the Phanar’s meddling. Metr. Tikhon has not concelebrated with any ukie schismatics and will not be seen to do so in future.
Sorry, OCU, so called. The OCA is fully canonical-and, btw, autocephalous, the Phanar's protestations notwithstanding.
 
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