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How often do you commune?

TomS

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Then again, maybe it is ME picking out those things that make it easier for me to not be so stringent in keeping the fast!


 

Jonathan

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TomΣ said:
Also, please understand that I was not trying to "catch" the person, I was just wondering if maybe not all Orthodox jurisdictions are stringent on the fasting issue?
For us, if someone accidentally breaks the Communion fast, they usually just go tell the priest that and usually he'll give permission to have Communion anyways since the point of fasting is to prepair us, not to give Satan a way to keep us from Communion by tempting us to slip up. We also aren't strict about it being from midnight, that's when it should start, but 9 hrs before Communion is all that most priests ask as a minimum.
 

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At the moment I attend an Antiochian parish (60% convert 40% assorted and miscellanous cradle. Makes things interesting.. Everybody has an opinion on what is the "right" way to take communion ) My parish priest encourages frequent communion. I go to confession about every other month.

Pardon my ignorance... What is "Group Confession"?
Oh yes... What about that edit function?
 

Keble

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By group confession I'm presuming that they mean the general confession that is a part of western liturgies. In anglican liturgies it is held to be sufficient for communing, and auricular confession is not linked to communing. We're also fasting wimps, which means that afternoon services which include eucharists are common (e.g. for ordinations).
 

Elisha

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TomΣ said:
Then again, maybe it is ME picking out those things that make it easier for me to not be so stringent in keeping the fast!
Again, as stated before, I don't get the impression (unless you're not telling us the whole picture) that you're infirm, need a special diet, have certain medical conditions, etc. This not expecting one to actually fast the 40 days is just laziness IMO. Like the example I stated before, an Orthodox Christian shouldn't be put in the awkward situation - even by one from another jurisdiction (especially in an event, however informal, where a bishop is present!) of having to break the fast.

I find it interesting that in modern culture, we hear about the East coast being more conservative and the West coast more liberal, but in the Orthodox world, it seems reversed. Keep in mind that the parishes in my area are not (for lack of a better way to put it) filled with zealot-like converts, but have many cradle Orthodox. A seminarian that was visiting a summer ago jokingly mentioned that the fasting he was used to (not personally, but those around him) consisted of only having butter on your cheese perogi.
 

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Tom doesn't need to tell you or anyone else about his whole picture, since it isn't anyone else's business. I recall Christ saying something about not worrying about the speck in another's eye, while we have logs in our own.

Elisha said:
Again, as stated before, I don't get the impression (unless you're not telling us the whole picture) that you're infirm, need a special diet, have certain medical conditions, etc. This not expecting one to actually fast the 40 days is just laziness IMO. Like the example I stated before, an Orthodox Christian shouldn't be put in the awkward situation - even by one from another jurisdiction (especially in an event, however informal, where a bishop is present!) of having to break the fast.

I find it interesting that in modern culture, we hear about the East coast being more conservative and the West coast more liberal, but in the Orthodox world, it seems reversed. Keep in mind that the parishes in my area are not (for lack of a better way to put it) filled with zealot-like converts, but have many cradle Orthodox. A seminarian that was visiting a summer ago jokingly mentioned that the fasting he was used to (not personally, but those around him) consisted of only having butter on your cheese perogi.
 

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I Commune at least once per week. Often if there is a week day Liturgy, I'll Commune more than once per week. (like at Christmas I partook of the Eucharist I think 4 times that week) But the average for me is once per week.

And no, my priest does not require Confession before Communion for those who partake regularly. However, for those who only take Communion a couple times a year, then he does ask they Confess before hand.
We never have "group" Confessions. And I'm in a Greek Orthodox parish.





 

ambrosemzv

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TomΣ said:
Even if you have not fasted since midnight for morning Litury?
No, as I said, "assuming we are fasting in accordance with our spriritual father's council," which certainly includes the Eucharistic fast from midnight.
 

ambrosemzv

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Woops! I see that someone else (thanks, Elisha!) had arlready replied on my behalf. Sorry for the repetition.
 

Elisha

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Tony said:
Tom doesn't need to tell you or anyone else about his whole picture, since it isn't anyone else's business. I recall Christ saying something about not worrying about the speck in another's eye, while we have logs in our own.
Tony,

Tom has claimed in the past that fasting isn't all that necessary (not exact words) or that one is only "expected" to do it on a few days. Several of us on the board have pointed out otherwise. If someone is spreading misinformation, however well intentioned or unintentionally they may be, it is our duty to correct the misinformation. I know of a parish (not mentioning names) in my area that has Pan-Orthodox events, which I would definitely go to, but definitely don't agree with many of the thoughts/opinions of the rector of said parish. Just because this certain priest may be liberal and lax, shouldn't give me an excuse to allow my praxis be as well. We should all strive to be as pious as possible and other Orthodox should be especially accomodating to others.
 

TomS

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Elisha said:
Again, as stated before, I don't get the impression (unless you're not telling us the whole picture) that you're infirm, need a special diet, have certain medical conditions, etc. This not expecting one to actually fast the 40 days is just laziness IMO.
Well, unfortunaltely, I don't think that I can dispute your conclusion.
 

TomS

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Elisha said:
Tony,

Tom has claimed in the past that fasting isn't all that necessary (not exact words) or that one is only "expected" to do it on a few days. Several of us on the board have pointed out otherwise.
And when I made those statements, I am pretty sure that I said that I received that information from someone in the Church. And I think I have said on this thread that the Church thinks that adhering to the whole fast IS preferable.

I am not trying to spread disinformation -- if you choose to fast or not to fast -- what is it to me? You need to do what you feel you need to do.
 

TomS

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I mean this IS a discussion board -- I was simply SHARING with you my understandings of how the fast is applied based upon my experiance in the GOA and from being married to a Greek woman and her extended family.
 

Elisha

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TomΣ said:
I mean this IS a discussion board -- I was simply SHARING with you my understandings of how the fast is applied based upon my experiance in the GOA and from being married to a Greek woman and her extended family.
Yeah, those lazy Greeks. ;D

I think this discussion has definitely run its course. Move on everyone, nothing to see here.
 

sthoman

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I am not working right now so I fast from midnight on and I receive everyday, I'm Roman Catholic.
 

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Keble said:
By group confession I'm presuming that they mean the general confession that is a part of western liturgies. In anglican liturgies it is held to be sufficient for communing, and auricular confession is not linked to communing. We're also fasting wimps, which means that afternoon services which include eucharists are common (e.g. for ordinations).
The one who used that language really should qualify it. I am betting that what is meant is "general confession" that is practiced in the OCA somwhat and in other jurisdictions. Since the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy doesn't really have the equivalent to what Keble is mentioning and ths thrust of this thread seems to not be about Anglican practices I doubt that is the case. If "group confession" is not general confession as it is commonly practiced then it should be qualified.

No offense is meant, but there is an excessive amount of sloppy language usage that goes on that ends up causing misunderstandings and harm. Much of that can be avoided I think by explaining what we mean when we use terms that are not common.
 

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TonyS said:
The one who used that language really should qualify it. I am betting that what is meant is "general confession" that is practiced in the OCA somwhat and in other jurisdictions. Since the Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy doesn't really have the equivalent to what Keble is mentioning and ths thrust of this thread seems to not be about Anglican practices I doubt that is the case. If "group confession" is not general confession as it is commonly practiced then it should be qualified.

No offense is meant, but there is an excessive amount of sloppy language usage that goes on that ends up causing misunderstandings and harm. Much of that can be avoided I think by explaining what we mean when we use terms that are not common.
Interesting...I'm of course new at this all.
So how is OCA general confession different from Anglican or RC general confession? Aside of course from the obvious visible differences within their churches...
 

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MsGuided said:
Interesting...I'm of course new at this all.
So how is OCA general confession different from Anglican or RC general confession? Aside of course from the obvious visible differences within their churches...
Dear MsGuided,

Keble mentions the "general confession" that happens toward the beginning of the Western liturgies. These form an integral part of those liturgies. In their most reduced form IIRC it is merely: Lord, have mercy; Christ, have mercy; Lord, have mercy. This is what is oft cited as the "Kyrie" the last remnant of Greek language used in Western liturgy. When I was looking into Anglicanism (over 20 years ago) I recall that there was an absolution formula and a blessing with the hand that accompanied this rite. In the RC Mass for a time there was a blessing with the hand but not currently as best as I can determine. Now, I am not very familiar with Western liturgy so please correct me if I am wrong but among RCs that does not count as confession for either the yearly requirement nor does it allow one in mortal sin to commune.

In the Russian Usage (attested in MP, OCA and other churches) there is a service totally outside of the Divine Liturgy that is a service of confession. The way it is celebrated varies from place to place, in my home parish it follows what is in the Hapgood book. After the recitation of the confession of sins by the priest (he says that on out behalf) there is a reflection or a short homily, then each person approaches the analogion for individual absolution. There is time for each person to mention anything he wants at that time, should he want. I have participated in the same exact service in a local MP parish and seen basically the same service in Prague and Budapest.

This service is not meant to take the place of regular private confession but to supplement it. In some places the confession:communion ration is still 1:1, this is helpful in those cases especially.

I have also witnessed general confession that was celebrated slightly differently. One who belongs to that community wouuld need to ascertain what the local understanding of the local practice is.

As far as I am aware, general confession is not used during Lent as private individual confession is the norm. Such is the case in my home parish.

If any of this is unclear or begs questions that are not obvious to me, please let me know.

Tony
 

Keble

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TonyS said:
Dear MsGuided,

Keble mentions the "general confession" that happens toward the beginning of the Western liturgies.
In current liturgies (NO and 1979 BCP) it falls in the center of liturgy, just before the peace and the offertory. Penitential rites (including the Kyrie and Trisagion) occur towards the beginning, and the Anglicans have separate penitential rites in which the confession is moved to precede the normal liturgy.

In Anglican churches this confession is accompanied by an absolution and is considered sufficient.
 

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Keble said:
In current liturgies (NO and 1979 BCP) it falls in the center of liturgy, just before the peace and the offertory. Penitential rites (including the Kyrie and Trisagion) occur towards the beginning, and the Anglicans have separate penitential rites in which the confession is moved to precede the normal liturgy.

In Anglican churches this confession is accompanied by an absolution and is considered sufficient.
This, then, does not correspond to the Kyrie? Then it is not familiar to me.
 

Keble

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In modern rites the order is typically:

Introit consisting of acclamation + prayer
Kyrie or Trisagion
Gloria
Collect
Readings and psalms
Sermon
Creed
Prayers
Confession
Peace
Offertory etc.

There are some rules about how the Creed and Gloria fit into this; in a weekday service they may both be omitted according to the 1979 rite, and the Gloria is omitted anyway during Lent (and generally in Advent). If the Gloria is omitted, the Kyrie or Trisagion must be included, but older practice was to always include the Kyrie.

Now the 1928 rite (and most older Anglican rites) was pretty different, but the elements that were moved around are a little surprising. The confession is in the same place, but the sermon and the offertory immediately follow the creed and the Gloria is the very last element. The tridentine rite is like the modern order except that the confession falls right before the Kyrie. The Anglican Missal follows the same pattern but of course uses Anglican parts as much as possible.

Whether Roman usage connected the Kyrie with the confession is a good question. Obviously, the Anglicans never have, and now take the view that the Kyrie/Trisagion forms part of a small penitential rite which is coupled with the Gloria. But wait, there's more..... There is a distinctively Anglican penitential rite which normally contains the decagogue and ends with confession. This fits into the eucharistic liturgy by replacing the normal introit, thus moving the confession into its Roman position. Confused yet?

I suppose the big question is why western rites contain a general confession in the first place; in modern but pre-Vat-II practice auricular confession was what "counted", so there didn't seem to be much of a point to having another confession in the service proper. For Anglicans, the situation has always been reversed. Auricular confession is uncoupled from the eucharist and has a pastoral and ascetic focus.
 

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Keble

[In current liturgies (NO and 1979 BCP) it falls in the center of liturgy, just before the peace and the offertory]

General confession? What are we talking about here? Just need a bit of clarity. In the Roman rite (NO) the penitential rite is just after the greeting and is usually the Kyrie or the Confiteor. Before the peace there's the Pater. ???

Carpo-Rusyn
 

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Thanks, Keble, for the information. In any event, this is a part of the Anglican liturgy that does not have a clear counterpart in the Byzantine Rite. And, the prayer before communion, common in one form or another is all usages that I know, does not count as absolution.

If the original poster does not mean what is more commonly called general confession (at least in all the documents I have read) then he should clarify it.
 

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I try and commune every Sunday if at all possible.

In the Orthodox Church I belong which is part of the OCA (Orthodox Church In
America) we partake of 'Private' Confession & 'General Confession'.

Private Confession is a must during Lenten periods and major feast days when 'General Confession' is not available.
However, We also have 'General' Confession which is usually after Vespers on a Saturday when the priest announces it. The priest will come out from behind the Iconostasis and in front of the Icon of Christ recite a series of 'Forgiveness Prayers'. Then he will proceed with 'General Confession'.

At 'General Confession' the entire congregation kneels and
recites the following from the 'Full Confession of St. Demetrius of Rostov) Which goes-

"I confess to the Lord my God and before thee, venerable father, all my countless sins, committed by me unto this very day and hour, in deed, word or thought. I sin daily and hourly by mine ingratitude toward God for His Great and countless blessings and benevolent providence over me, a sinner.
I have sinned through: idle talking, judging others, stubborness, pride, hard-heartedness, envy, anger, slander, inattention, negeligence concerning my salvation, carelessness, indifference, impertinence, irritability, despondency, rendering evil for evil, bitterness, disobedience, complaining, self-justification, contradicting others, self-will, being reproachful, gossiping, lying, light-mindedness, tempting others, self-love, ambition, gourmandizing, eating and drinking to excess, vanity, laziness, entertaining
unclean thoughts, acquisitiveness, impure glances, absence from Divine Services, because of laziness and carelessness, absentmindedness at prayer both in church and at home; I have sinned in deed, word, thought, in sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch and the rest of my mental and physical senses; of all my sins I repent and beg forgiveness.

(At this point there is about a five minute silence. Here one should mention privately to God specifially any other sins which may be burdening the soul).

Forgive and absolve me, venerable father, and bless me to commune of the holy and life-creating Mysteries of Christ unto the remission of sins and life-everlasting."

Amen!

At this point each individual person will go to the priest and receive absolution in the usuall manner.

In our parish approximately 75% - 85% of the people who go to Communion on any given Sunday do so every Sunday. Usually when there is a Liturgy during the week the priest will be there a half hour prior to the start of the Liturgy. If you
stand in front of the Iconostasis he will come out. He will ask if you have any sins to confess and proceed to give you confession and/or absolution (depending on how you reply). Our priest is very strict and knows his parishioners (even to the kind of car we drive). If you come up and he
knows you have not received confession or absolution he will not give you communion. We all know enough not to even attempt it!
On any given Sunday well over 75% or more of the congregation partake of communion which usually takes bout 15 to 20 minutes.

I also utilize the prayer of St Demetrius when I am preparing myself for private Confession. It reading through it, it helps we to see all my sins and weaknesses.

=====

Orthodoc
 
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