I like this

Maria

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You like creedless "Christianity" ???

No Creed but Christ?  Remember that Christ established His Holy Church, which gave us both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed.
 

Cyrillic

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Maria said:
You like creedless "Christianity" ???

No Creed but Christ?  Remember that Christ established His Holy Church, which gave us both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed.
Which you left because of some calendar nonsense.
 

Maria

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What are our Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith? We have none, and we do not follow any. Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith alike fail to give us this full knowledge of God which is so essential to our faith and walk. They are only man’s impressions, inferences, and conclusions drawn from Scripture; and have themselves to be judged by Scripture. Whatever of truth there may be in them, or however useful, they can never take the place of the Word of God. Only the Living Word, and in the pages of the written Word, can we get to know God.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/who.html

Interesting that these Protestants say that the Nicene Creed will have to be judged by Scripture, when both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed were compiled and canonized by the Holy Orthodox Church established by Christ God.

Edited to add the link to this excerpt.
 

Maria

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Does this Protestant denomination have an outreach to Russia?

When I clicked HOME at the bottom of the page linked in the OP, it took me to this website:

http://devoted.to/truth -- which appears to be a forum to discuss apartment and home construction projects

Архив категории: Новости строительства
Как любое большое и хлопотное дело, переезд на новую квартиру требует хорошей организации, которую желательно обдумать заранее. Самый длительный процесс – это упаковка и сортировка вещей. За день этого не сделаешь. Поэтому, если Вы решили продать квартиру в Нижегородской области, начинать готовиться к переезду нужно хотя бы за неделю. Переезд – это один из поводов, чтобы пересмотреть свои ...

Google translate:

Archive Category: News Construction
Like any large and troublesome thing, moving to a new apartment requires a good organization that it is desirable to consider in advance. Most long-term process - a packaging and sorting things. The day will not. Therefore, if you decide to sell an apartment in Nizhny Novgorod region, to start preparing for the move need at least a week. Moving - is one of the reasons to revise their ...
Apartment selling?
 

scamandrius

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Maria said:
What are our Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith? We have none, and we do not follow any. Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith alike fail to give us this full knowledge of God which is so essential to our faith and walk. They are only man’s impressions, inferences, and conclusions drawn from Scripture; and have themselves to be judged by Scripture. Whatever of truth there may be in them, or however useful, they can never take the place of the Word of God. Only the Living Word, and in the pages of the written Word, can we get to know God.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/who.html

Interesting that these Protestants say that the Nicene Creed will have to be judged by Scripture, when both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed were compiled and canonized by the Holy Orthodox Church established by Christ God.

Edited to add the link to this excerpt.
Protestants like Lutherans and Anglicans will say that the Nicene Creed is acceptable because is derived from and agrees with Scripture.  Of course, the image they have in their heads when they say something like that is that all the bishops at Nicaea had their Bibles out and were taking out verses and paraphrasing them.
 

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Maria said:
You like creedless "Christianity" ???

No Creed but Christ?  Remember that Christ established His Holy Church, which gave us both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed.
Well, he linked to one page, not the entire site. ;) And there seems to be good things there, including some Scriptural passages that many Orthodox give little place for, so it's doubly good as something to look over. And even if you think their theology just the absolute pits, there is always the truthful words: "We ought not to deprecatingly shun all that the heretics say, inasmuch as they confess many things which we also confess." (St. Cyril of Alexandria, Epistle 44)
 

Maria

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Justin Kissel said:
Maria said:
You like creedless "Christianity" ???

No Creed but Christ?  Remember that Christ established His Holy Church, which gave us both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed.
Well, he linked to one page, not the entire site. ;) And there seems to be good things there, including some Scriptural passages that many Orthodox give little place for, so it's doubly good as something to look over. And even if you think their theology just the absolute pits, there is always the truthful words: "We ought not to deprecatingly shun all that the heretics say, inasmuch as they confess many things which we also confess." (St. Cyril of Alexandria, Epistle 44)
Yes, there is good protein in snake venom, but on the whole, that miserly five percent poison in that snake venom can kill and do so swiftly.
 

Asteriktos

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Well, to continue with that metaphor, what if someone offered the snake so that you could get something good from it (for example a key ingredient in an anti-venom)--would you then say "snakes are dangerous and can be deadly, so no thanks"? Or would you cautiously but gratefully accept it?  (though I suppose that supposed the ingredient would be helpful to you--or the bible verses in this case)

I think this may be one area where there is a shift in how we perceive sources, data, and so on. If someone gives you a book I think the natural tendency is to view it as a whole, rather than something made up of parts (even if there are numerous authors or wildly varying topics). But while websites can be viewed in that way, they often aren't, and most people never read much beyond that first page they went to. Not many people would go to a library, randomly pick up a book in the section they're interested in, read a single page, and then close it and move on to start the process again. But that's pretty much what we do on the net, and so if we show someone that single page we happened to read, we do not mean to be endorsing the entire thing, but only the particular thing we are pointing out.
 

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Cyrillic said:
Maria said:
You like creedless "Christianity" ???

No Creed but Christ?  Remember that Christ established His Holy Church, which gave us both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed.
Which you left because of some calendar nonsense.
How is that relevant to this discussion or to Maria's participation therein? One thing I'm not going to let you or anyone do is attack Maria for her decision to join an Old-Calendarist jurisdiction when said decision is not the topic of discussion and bears no relevance to the topic of discussion.
 

wgw

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I agree with Maria that the content linked to is rather toxic, and Maria's devotion to and love for the Apostolic faith and her inate Orthodoxy is demonstrated by her raising a red flag over the pietist nuda scriptura claptrap published by this site, which appears to be connected to those evil "evangelists" who want to undermine the Holy Orthodox of Russia.  Even of the article itslef makes good points, its a bit like reading Origen or another heretoc: dangerous unless one either recognizes the heretical origin of the work or alternately reads portions of it quoted by a holy father or eminent bishop as being edifying.  Thus, one must be on ones guard when reading any of Origen with the exception of the Philocalia of his works compiled by the Cappadocians, and the only part of the Gnostic gospels I read for edification is the solitary verse from The Gospel of Truth Metropolitan Kallistos Ware quotes to make a point.  As Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick says, "Doctrine Matters," and even this piece to me strikes me as being a bit warped and reflective of the anti-creedal phronema which produced it.  There is so much more Orthodox material to read on the web, why bother with this?
 

PeterTheAleut

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wgw said:
I agree with Maria that the content linked to is rather toxic, and Maria's devotion to and love for the Apostolic faith and her inate Orthodoxy is demonstrated by her raising a red flag over the pietist nuda scriptura claptrap published by this site, which appears to be connected to those evil "evangelists" who want to undermine the Holy Orthodox of Russia.  Even of the article itslef makes good points, its a bit like reading Origen or another heretoc: dangerous unless one either recognizes the heretical origin of the work or alternately reads portions of it quoted by a holy father or eminent bishop as being edifying.  Thus, one must be on ones guard when reading any of Origen with the exception of the Philocalia of his works compiled by the Cappadocians, and the only part of the Gnostic gospels I read for edification is the solitary verse from The Gospel of Truth Metropolitan Kallistos Ware quotes to make a point.  As Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick says, "Doctrine Matters," and even this piece to me strikes me as being a bit warped and reflective of the anti-creedal phronema which produced it.  There is so much more Orthodox material to read on the web, why bother with this?
As Justin said, if the page cited in the OP is the only page you ever read of that site, what harm is done? Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day. Why knock a heretic for actually speaking truth for a change?
 

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scamandrius said:
Of course, the image they have in their heads ... is that all the bishops at Nicaea had their Bibles out and were taking out verses and paraphrasing them.
I don't think we have that in our heads. I think rather that we believe that they were attempting to summarise the essence of Christian belief, though they were not infallible in the way that the inspired scriptures are. There have been hugely long discussions on this in earlier threads, with long and searching arguments from the sadly disappeared GreekChef, and we discovered that the only word we disagreed on in the Nicene Creed is the possible width of meaning of the preposition eis. Not a bad achievement for a gathering of bishops 1700 years ago, drawing up a document on which an Evangelical Baptist and a theologically learned Orthodox would find no more than that to disagree on.
 

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David Young said:
Maria said:
...Protestants say that the Nicene Creed will have to be judged by Scripture
Indeed we do. But we say the same about such documents as the Baptist Confession of Faith, John Wesley's standard sermons, or any other attempted distillation of Christian truth.
It was judged by Scripture when the Church accepted it. Why must every person become their own judge of the Creed?
 

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TheTrisagion said:
Why must every person become their own judge of the Creed?
Well, we wouldn't have Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians otherwise, would we? "...I hear there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized" (1 Corinthians 11:18-9). Maybe that gives a clue.
 

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David Young said:
TheTrisagion said:
Why must every person become their own judge of the Creed?
Well, we wouldn't have Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians otherwise, would we? "...I hear there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized" (1 Corinthians 11:18-9). Maybe that gives a clue.
That is my point. Every time someone says they have to judge the Creed by Scripture, they are in effect saying that they are putting their own opinion of Scripture above the opinion of the Church. The Church has held to the Creed for over 1600 years and it has held to the beliefs that the Creed states for 2000 years. Why do people feel the need to come along 2000 years later and "judge the Creed by Scripture". It makes no more sense to say the Creed needs to be judged by Scripture than it does to say that the Scripture needs to be judged by the Creed. They both come from the Word of God. We don't need to judge what Christ says in one place by what He says in another.
 

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TheTrisagion said:
Why do people feel the need to come along 2000 years later and "judge the Creed by Scripture". ... We don't need to judge what Christ says in one place by what He says in another.
They aren't. But given that Christ would not contradict himself, they wish to check that the two sources agree. An illustration: when I preach, I don't want people to believe what I preach just because I've said it (and I hope it is wholly in agree with the ancient creeds as well as with scripture), I want them to think about it, and personally believe that what I say is right. That is, I don't want to impart a second-hand religion, wherein people think what they are told to think without real conviction. So if I quote the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, John Wesley's sermons, the Baptist Confession of Faith, or whatever, I am happy for them - nay it is what I want - to compare it with scripture and come to a first-hand faith. Surely those who genuinely think about their own religious beliefs, whether Orthodox, Roman, Baptist, Lutheran or whatever, reach that point of agreeing on those ancient creeds, because (as you say) what Christ says in one place must not be contradicted in another.
 

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scamandrius said:
Maria said:
What are our Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith? We have none, and we do not follow any. Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith alike fail to give us this full knowledge of God which is so essential to our faith and walk. They are only man’s impressions, inferences, and conclusions drawn from Scripture; and have themselves to be judged by Scripture. Whatever of truth there may be in them, or however useful, they can never take the place of the Word of God. Only the Living Word, and in the pages of the written Word, can we get to know God.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/who.html

Interesting that these Protestants say that the Nicene Creed will have to be judged by Scripture, when both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed were compiled and canonized by the Holy Orthodox Church established by Christ God.

Edited to add the link to this excerpt.
Protestants like Lutherans and Anglicans will say that the Nicene Creed is acceptable because is derived from and agrees with Scripture.  Of course, the image they have in their heads when they say something like that is that all the bishops at Nicaea had their tablets Bibles out and were taking out verses using their Bible App and paraphrasing them.
Fixed it for ya.

But yes...love the image.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
wgw said:
I agree with Maria that the content linked to is rather toxic, and Maria's devotion to and love for the Apostolic faith and her inate Orthodoxy is demonstrated by her raising a red flag over the pietist nuda scriptura claptrap published by this site, which appears to be connected to those evil "evangelists" who want to undermine the Holy Orthodox of Russia.  Even of the article itslef makes good points, its a bit like reading Origen or another heretoc: dangerous unless one either recognizes the heretical origin of the work or alternately reads portions of it quoted by a holy father or eminent bishop as being edifying.  Thus, one must be on ones guard when reading any of Origen with the exception of the Philocalia of his works compiled by the Cappadocians, and the only part of the Gnostic gospels I read for edification is the solitary verse from The Gospel of Truth Metropolitan Kallistos Ware quotes to make a point.  As Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick says, "Doctrine Matters," and even this piece to me strikes me as being a bit warped and reflective of the anti-creedal phronema which produced it.  There is so much more Orthodox material to read on the web, why bother with this?
As Justin said, if the page cited in the OP is the only page you ever read of that site, what harm is done? Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day. Why knock a heretic for actually speaking truth for a change?
One theme I see reflected in the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis is the danger that occurs when heretics do speak the truth and thus gain your trust.  Thus he regards those sects that come closer to the truth as more of a danger than more bizarre Gnostics and so on.
 

Asteriktos

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I'm pretty sure that for St. Epiphanius, just saying the word 'heretic' was good enough in most cases to get you condemned. After all, he wasn't going to take a chance, and what were you doing using such an ugly word anyway? (this is an exaggeration, but only a slight one)
 

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wgw said:
PeterTheAleut said:
wgw said:
I agree with Maria that the content linked to is rather toxic, and Maria's devotion to and love for the Apostolic faith and her inate Orthodoxy is demonstrated by her raising a red flag over the pietist nuda scriptura claptrap published by this site, which appears to be connected to those evil "evangelists" who want to undermine the Holy Orthodox of Russia.  Even of the article itslef makes good points, its a bit like reading Origen or another heretoc: dangerous unless one either recognizes the heretical origin of the work or alternately reads portions of it quoted by a holy father or eminent bishop as being edifying.  Thus, one must be on ones guard when reading any of Origen with the exception of the Philocalia of his works compiled by the Cappadocians, and the only part of the Gnostic gospels I read for edification is the solitary verse from The Gospel of Truth Metropolitan Kallistos Ware quotes to make a point.  As Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick says, "Doctrine Matters," and even this piece to me strikes me as being a bit warped and reflective of the anti-creedal phronema which produced it.  There is so much more Orthodox material to read on the web, why bother with this?
As Justin said, if the page cited in the OP is the only page you ever read of that site, what harm is done? Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day. Why knock a heretic for actually speaking truth for a change?
One theme I see reflected in the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis is the danger that occurs when heretics do speak the truth and thus gain your trust.
That's why you would want to read the other pages on the site as I did. I know what the site is about, and it is very heretical--they deny the Trinity, for cryin' out loud! Even so, I don't let that influence how I read the one page linked in the OP. Even if I don't like the site, the single page quoted here speaks truth, and I will glorify that.

wgw said:
Thus he regards those sects that come closer to the truth as more of a danger than more bizarre Gnostics and so on.
I would agree, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
 

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Maria said:
You like creedless "Christianity" ???

No Creed but Christ?  Remember that Christ established His Holy Church, which gave us both the Holy Bible and the Nicene Creed.
Credo is Latin for "I Believe"; a creed is a statement of belief.

"No creeds but Christ" ...is a creed.
 

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David Young said:
Maria said:
...Protestants say that the Nicene Creed will have to be judged by Scripture
Indeed we do. But we say the same about such documents as the Baptist Confession of Faith, John Wesley's standard sermons, or any other attempted distillation of Christian truth.
only difference is that neither the Baptists nor John Wesely/the Methodists wrote the Holy Scriptures, but the Church that wrote the Nicene Creed wrote the Holy Scriptures as well.
 

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David Young said:
scamandrius said:
Of course, the image they have in their heads ... is that all the bishops at Nicaea had their Bibles out and were taking out verses and paraphrasing them.
I don't think we have that in our heads. I think rather that we believe that they were attempting to summarise the essence of Christian belief, though they were not infallible in the way that the inspired scriptures are.
Problem is those fallible bishops, as you put it, were the very ones who canonized the New Testament. So their table of contents to the NT must be fallible as well...and where would that leave you? :police:
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
wgw said:
PeterTheAleut said:
wgw said:
I agree with Maria that the content linked to is rather toxic, and Maria's devotion to and love for the Apostolic faith and her inate Orthodoxy is demonstrated by her raising a red flag over the pietist nuda scriptura claptrap published by this site, which appears to be connected to those evil "evangelists" who want to undermine the Holy Orthodox of Russia.  Even of the article itslef makes good points, its a bit like reading Origen or another heretoc: dangerous unless one either recognizes the heretical origin of the work or alternately reads portions of it quoted by a holy father or eminent bishop as being edifying.  Thus, one must be on ones guard when reading any of Origen with the exception of the Philocalia of his works compiled by the Cappadocians, and the only part of the Gnostic gospels I read for edification is the solitary verse from The Gospel of Truth Metropolitan Kallistos Ware quotes to make a point.  As Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick says, "Doctrine Matters," and even this piece to me strikes me as being a bit warped and reflective of the anti-creedal phronema which produced it.  There is so much more Orthodox material to read on the web, why bother with this?
As Justin said, if the page cited in the OP is the only page you ever read of that site, what harm is done? Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day. Why knock a heretic for actually speaking truth for a change?
One theme I see reflected in the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis is the danger that occurs when heretics do speak the truth and thus gain your trust.
That's why you would want to read the other pages on the site as I did. I know what the site is about, and it is very heretical--they deny the Trinity, for cryin' out loud! Even so, I don't let that influence how I read the one page linked in the OP. Even if I don't like the site, the single page quoted here speaks truth, and I will glorify that.

wgw said:
Thus he regards those sects that come closer to the truth as more of a danger than more bizarre Gnostics and so on.
I would agree, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
Well indeed the Cappadocians were able to distill from the poisoned well of origen the sweet water of the Philocalia (not to be confused with the Philokalia of Ss. Nicodemus and Macarius of the Holy Mountain), so your point is taken to that extent.  My point however is there are so many other materials which offer the same edification that the first page of the poison well of that site offers, and which do so without being connected to Soccinian/neo Samosatian heretics, whereas in he case of Origen his mind was brilliant enough that it was worth it for the Cappadocians to filter through the dung in order to extract the gold the Philocalia, whereas here I think they would just consign all of this material to the flames.  But not the authors (it is worth recalling the vehement opposition of St. Ambrose and others to the torching of Priscillian by Theodosius).
 

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^^I'm sure many people feel the same about the great majority of pages on this site, but let's not be so quick to burn things, mkay?
 

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wgw said:
PeterTheAleut said:
wgw said:
PeterTheAleut said:
wgw said:
I agree with Maria that the content linked to is rather toxic, and Maria's devotion to and love for the Apostolic faith and her inate Orthodoxy is demonstrated by her raising a red flag over the pietist nuda scriptura claptrap published by this site, which appears to be connected to those evil "evangelists" who want to undermine the Holy Orthodox of Russia.  Even of the article itslef makes good points, its a bit like reading Origen or another heretoc: dangerous unless one either recognizes the heretical origin of the work or alternately reads portions of it quoted by a holy father or eminent bishop as being edifying.  Thus, one must be on ones guard when reading any of Origen with the exception of the Philocalia of his works compiled by the Cappadocians, and the only part of the Gnostic gospels I read for edification is the solitary verse from The Gospel of Truth Metropolitan Kallistos Ware quotes to make a point.  As Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick says, "Doctrine Matters," and even this piece to me strikes me as being a bit warped and reflective of the anti-creedal phronema which produced it.  There is so much more Orthodox material to read on the web, why bother with this?
As Justin said, if the page cited in the OP is the only page you ever read of that site, what harm is done? Even a broken analog clock is right twice a day. Why knock a heretic for actually speaking truth for a change?
One theme I see reflected in the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis is the danger that occurs when heretics do speak the truth and thus gain your trust.
That's why you would want to read the other pages on the site as I did. I know what the site is about, and it is very heretical--they deny the Trinity, for cryin' out loud! Even so, I don't let that influence how I read the one page linked in the OP. Even if I don't like the site, the single page quoted here speaks truth, and I will glorify that.

wgw said:
Thus he regards those sects that come closer to the truth as more of a danger than more bizarre Gnostics and so on.
I would agree, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.
Well indeed the Cappadocians were able to distill from the poisoned well of origen the sweet water of the Philocalia (not to be confused with the Philokalia of Ss. Nicodemus and Macarius of the Holy Mountain), so your point is taken to that extent.  My point however is there are so many other materials which offer the same edification that the first page of the poison well of that site offers, and which do so without being connected to Soccinian/neo Samosatian heretics, whereas in he case of Origen his mind was brilliant enough that it was worth it for the Cappadocians to filter through the dung in order to extract the gold the Philocalia, whereas here I think they would just consign all of this material to the flames.  But not the authors (it is worth recalling the vehement opposition of St. Ambrose and others to the torching of Priscillian by Theodosius).
Can you distill those three sentences to maybe five words each? :p
 

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No, but I will try to summarize: it is true there is Orthodox doctrine plainly expressed on that page, just as some things written by Origen were of great value and were collected in the Philocalia.  However, the authors of that page being heretics, and ourselves not being the Cappadocians, we should not attempt to be edified by it.  Especially since unlike the writings of Origen, the information it contains is very low-level and not even worth the effort required to read it.

There, thats the beat I can do.

If one desires true edification I reccommend the Paradise of the Fathera, volumes 1 and 2, or the Lausoac History, or anything written by the saints, particularly Ignatius, Athanasius or Irenaeus of Lyon.  As is well known I am also very partial to Ss. Epiphanius of Salamis and Jacob of Sarugh.
 

PeterTheAleut

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wgw said:
No, but I will try to summarize: it is true there is Orthodox doctrine plainly expressed on that page, just as some things written by Origen were of great value and were collected in the Philocalia.  However, the authors of that page being heretics, and ourselves not being the Cappadocians, we should not attempt to be edified by it.  Especially since unlike the writings of Origen, the information it contains is very low-level and not even worth the effort required to read it.
Very simple solution. Don't read anything past the first page.
 

Minnesotan

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PeterTheAleut said:
wgw said:
No, but I will try to summarize: it is true there is Orthodox doctrine plainly expressed on that page, just as some things written by Origen were of great value and were collected in the Philocalia.  However, the authors of that page being heretics, and ourselves not being the Cappadocians, we should not attempt to be edified by it.  Especially since unlike the writings of Origen, the information it contains is very low-level and not even worth the effort required to read it.
Very simple solution. Don't read anything past the first page.
Except for the parts about powder finishing and furniture.
 
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