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I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com

lovesupreme

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http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

What are we to make of something like this?

While I believe that people who struggle with SSA should not be denied the tools of salvation by unmerciful clergy who automatically reject them as reprobate, I also believe that homosexuality is a serious sin that needs to be fought, not encouraged. I believe that this is something most of us agree upon.

But a site that affirms homosexuality as a "gift from God" and wants to change the Church to approve of their particular vices? Yes, call me one of those old fashioned fuddy duddies, but that is not something I can support in any way shape or form.

I suppose the point of all this is that we can rail on Catholics for having such groups as Catholics for Choice and Catholics for Equality, but the Orthodox are not immune to this sinister twisting of logic and we should be more charitable to other Christian groups who struggle with this new challenge. And it's always a careful combination of standing firm but being merciful.

 

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Axios has been around since 1980. Is this the website of a similar organization?
 

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lovesupreme said:
http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

What are we to make of something like this?

While I believe that people who struggle with SSA should not be denied the tools of salvation by unmerciful clergy who automatically reject them as reprobate, I also believe that homosexuality is a serious sin that needs to be fought, not encouraged. I believe that this is something most of us agree upon.

But a site that affirms homosexuality as a "gift from God" and wants to change the Church to approve of their particular vices? Yes, call me one of those old fashioned fuddy duddies, but that is not something I can support in any way shape or form.

I suppose the point of all this is that we can rail on Catholics for having such groups as Catholics for Choice and Catholics for Equality, but the Orthodox are not immune to this sinister twisting of logic and we should be more charitable to other Christian groups who struggle with this new challenge. And it's always a careful combination of standing firm but being merciful.
The best thing to do is pray for those who are being deceived by said organizations.
 
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are these from the same creeps who did the orthodox calender with gay men? If they don't want to repent, live the ascetic life and is trying to make the church accept their sins why don't they go to the ELCA or the the espiscopal church? Not cool!
 

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seekeroftruth777 said:
are these from the same creeps who did the orthodox calender with gay men? If they don't want to repent, live the ascetic life and is trying to make the church accept their sins why don't they go to the ELCA or the the espiscopal church? Not cool!
I suspect that such people will not leave the Orthodox Church is the same reason why the same people will not leave the Catholic Church:  it is part of their heritage or they believe it is the one true church (despite the "problems" they have) or they think they can change it, etc., etc..
 

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Well I do think they raise a good question which is something Christianity seems inconsistent on. How do we affirm that God is the creator and that we are made in His image and likeness if there are things wrong with us? Furthermore, how can we be held accountable for the latter if He was the one responsible for our creation? The Fall sort of answers the question, but doesn't really leave us any direction. Where do we go from there? Are we officially screwed or what? And if Christ was supposed to be the New Adam, then how can the effects of the Fall still have any bearing on us? Homosexuality is just the popular issue at the time, but the issue is echoed in various topics, particularly those related to sexuality.
 
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It sounds agenda driven from the onset:

Being gay is a gift of God, the Creator. Therefore expressing that gift in a healthy and mature relationship is also blessed by God.

http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

This is not struggling with SSA but affirming SSA. More agenda driven sin cloaked under a false redefinition of the humanity of Christ preaching a false gospel.
 
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recent convert said:
It sounds agenda driven from the onset:

Being gay is a gift of God, the Creator. Therefore expressing that gift in a healthy and mature relationship is also blessed by God.

http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

This is not struggling with SSA but affirming SSA. More agenda driven sin cloaked under a false redefinition of the humanity of Christ preaching a false gospel.
+100
 

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recent convert said:
It sounds agenda driven from the onset:

Being gay is a gift of God, the Creator. Therefore expressing that gift in a healthy and mature relationship is also blessed by God.

http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

This is not struggling with SSA but affirming SSA. More agenda driven sin cloaked under a false redefinition of the humanity of Christ preaching a false gospel.
I often wonder if God finds homosexuality as much of an abomination as some of the posters on OrthodoxChristianity.net clearly do. Where are the people Christian enough to actually get to know some committed gay/lesbian couples and, if they are caring for them, the children or parents they are giving a home to? If you don't find them standing next to you on Sunday, consider that it may be because you've browbeaten them into silence or driven them out; you have your agenda, too, and you think God is on your side. Consider the possibility that unlike you, He doesn't take sides.
 

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seekeroftruth777 said:
are these from the same creeps who did the orthodox calender with gay men?
No, they're different 'creeps'.

seekeroftruth777 said:
are these from the same creeps who did the orthodox calender with gay men? If they don't want to repent, live the ascetic life and is trying to make the church accept their sins why don't they go to the ELCA or the the espiscopal church? Not cool!
The fact that you can ask this question shows you have a very shallow understanding of what makes Orthodoxy unique among the churches.
 

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JamesR said:
Well I do think they raise a good question which is something Christianity seems inconsistent on. How do we affirm that God is the creator and that we are made in His image and likeness if there are things wrong with us?
Do you own and read a Bible?  What do you do when you are in church?  Do you even go to church?  There is an answer for this question, and it is answered at least once a week, and more often if you participate in basic elements of Christian life more often. 

Furthermore, how can we be held accountable for the latter if He was the one responsible for our creation?
Your vision for humanity is babies securely and permanently latched to the abundant breasts of God.  Too bad God wants us to learn how to walk at some point. 

The Fall sort of answers the question, but doesn't really leave us any direction. Where do we go from there? Are we officially screwed or what?
We go toward Christ who comes toward us.  That is the direction. 

And if Christ was supposed to be the New Adam, then how can the effects of the Fall still have any bearing on us? Homosexuality is just the popular issue at the time, but the issue is echoed in various topics, particularly those related to sexuality.
Christ makes possible for us something greater than a mere reversal of the damage the Fall did to our nature.  And he does so precisely by experiencing and conquering death.  He allows us to become gods by grace, not merely to be humans who don't die anymore.   
 

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FinnJames said:
recent convert said:
It sounds agenda driven from the onset:

Being gay is a gift of God, the Creator. Therefore expressing that gift in a healthy and mature relationship is also blessed by God.

http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

This is not struggling with SSA but affirming SSA. More agenda driven sin cloaked under a false redefinition of the humanity of Christ preaching a false gospel.
I often wonder if God finds homosexuality as much of an abomination as some of the posters on OrthodoxChristianity.net clearly do. Where are the people Christian enough to actually get to know some committed gay/lesbian couples and, if they are caring for them, the children or parents they are giving a home to? If you don't find them standing next to you on Sunday, consider that it may be because you've browbeaten them into silence or driven them out; you have your agenda, too, and you think God is on your side. Consider the possibility that unlike you, He doesn't take sides.
I often wonder if people have ever experienced being totally filled with the light of God's love to the point of near dissolution.  After attending services at Orthodox parishes for years and reading on this forum, I think not.

I did experience it before I was Christian.  It convinced me of the Truth and put me on a long road to Orthodoxy.

I also learned from that there are degrees of spiritual light, and how we behave directly affects how much the light of God can dwell in us.  Misconduct, especially sexual misconduct, directly reduces the light within us and separates us from God.  That is what sin is: suffering and darkness caused by degrees of separation from God. 

I sometimes wonder if others see what I see in the Allegory of the Cave.  I wonder how much along with others I am still stuck in the cave looking at shadows and thinking they are real, imprisoned in this limiting shell of flesh and blood.  So, I work in the shadow of God's wings and by His grace to draw closer, to dispense with shadows and fooling myself.  It's a gradual process. 

I am Orthodox because the saints attest to a wide range of spiritual experiences and understandings that match exactly what I apprehended by God’s grace before I ever read them (experiences not because I was holy, but because God knows what I need to draw closer).  They clearly state that fornication and sexual abuse of our bodies separates us from God. 

Yes, God is love, but like a person who can't go out and run a marathon without a lot of conditioning for it first, a person cannot be a great spiritual athlete if they don't train for it first. 

That's what Orthodoxy is: training.  All they can do is point the way for you.  The rest is up to you.

God's love is not a limited human sort of love you speak of, a shadow of love, but something in a frequency range that mere flesh cannot endure.  This is why some find the sayings of Christ to be so hard.  It’s about spiritual conditioning that can only become stronger through discipline of the flesh.
 

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JamesR said:
Well I do think they raise a good question which is something Christianity seems inconsistent on. How do we affirm that God is the creator and that we are made in His image and likeness if there are things wrong with us? Furthermore, how can we be held accountable for the latter if He was the one responsible for our creation? The Fall sort of answers the question, but doesn't really leave us any direction. Where do we go from there? Are we officially screwed or what? And if Christ was supposed to be the New Adam, then how can the effects of the Fall still have any bearing on us? Homosexuality is just the popular issue at the time, but the issue is echoed in various topics, particularly those related to sexuality.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (1 Cor. 12)
 

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Hi JamesR,

If the questions below are real ones asking for information, I can give it a stab if you want. Or better still, ask your priest or have a look at, say, Andrew Louth's Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology. As for why sexuality is a recurrent hot-button issue in religion, I think Velsigne's post in the thread does a good job of pointing toward the answer.

Best wishes,
James

JamesR said:
Well I do think they raise a good question which is something Christianity seems inconsistent on. How do we affirm that God is the creator and that we are made in His image and likeness if there are things wrong with us? Furthermore, how can we be held accountable for the latter if He was the one responsible for our creation? The Fall sort of answers the question, but doesn't really leave us any direction. Where do we go from there? Are we officially screwed or what? And if Christ was supposed to be the New Adam, then how can the effects of the Fall still have any bearing on us? Homosexuality is just the popular issue at the time, but the issue is echoed in various topics, particularly those related to sexuality.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Christ makes possible for us something greater than a mere reversal of the damage the Fall did to our nature.  And he does so precisely by experiencing and conquering death.  He allows us to become gods by grace, not merely to be humans who don't die anymore. 
This is probably the most succinct, accurate statement on Orthodox soteriology I have ever read.
 

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Yawn. Stopped reading when noticed the idea that homosexuality is a gift of God. No, just no. There's no way that can be supported by any sensible theology. Some Orthodox Christians are homophobic but crappy theology doesn't really change that.
 

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Alpo said:
Yawn. Stopped reading when noticed the idea that homosexuality is a gift of God. No, just no. There's no way that can be supported by any sensible theology. Some Orthodox Christians are homophobic but crappy theology doesn't really change that.
Even cancer is a gift of God according to some conservative Protestant theologians, who, ironically, probably would not say the same about homosexuality.
 

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Minnesotan said:
Alpo said:
Yawn. Stopped reading when noticed the idea that homosexuality is a gift of God. No, just no. There's no way that can be supported by any sensible theology. Some Orthodox Christians are homophobic but crappy theology doesn't really change that.
Even cancer is a gift of God according to some conservative Protestant theologians, who, ironically, probably would not say the same about homosexuality.
Cancer is not sinful though.  We may liken sin to disease but the converse does not always hold.
 
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FinnJames said:
seekeroftruth777 said:
are these from the same creeps who did the orthodox calender with gay men?
No, they're different 'creeps'.

seekeroftruth777 said:
are these from the same creeps who did the orthodox calender with gay men? If they don't want to repent, live the ascetic life and is trying to make the church accept their sins why don't they go to the ELCA or the the espiscopal church? Not cool!
The fact that you can ask this question shows you have a very shallow understanding of what makes Orthodoxy unique among the churches.
it not shallowness and Orthodoxy is very much unique.  I don't think anyone here has a problem  with homosexuals in the Orthodox church trying to struggle with their sins and we should all pray for them. However my problem is when they try to have the church affirm & approve their sins as okay and natural while not struggling with their sins or for that matter pusing  the ideology that "being gay is a gift from god" into the Orthodox church and I hope I'm not alone. The church is a hospital for patients who needs treatment but if the patients doesn't take their medicine then why keep going back to the doctor expecting different results? you seem like a compassionate kind man finnjames may I ask what makes you so passionate on this one issue with the church?
 

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lovesupreme said:
http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

What are we to make of something like this?
Pray for them.  Otherwise ignore it. Groups like these exist in every religion and there effect is directly related to just how firmly grounded in holy scripture and tradition a church actually is.  I am not too worried about any group like this actually effecting the Church.
 

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seekeroftruth777 said:
you seem like a compassionate kind man finnjames may I ask what makes you so passionate on this one issue with the church?
Thank you for the question. In my view, it is far to easy to simply fall back on Church doctrine and condemn the website in question out of hand without giving the voices in it a fair hearing. They are, after all, not the voices coming to us in our Sunday homilies, nor are they the voices which we hear from the laity in our congregations. So I think we ought at least to listen to them before condemning them out of hand. Surely that is the Christ-like thing to do.

Presumably unlike most who have posted here, I have actually read everything on OrthodoxandGay.com, posted a few comments to it, and exchanged some emails with the man who keeps the website. He is a former Orthodox priest who now shares his life with a male partner so presumably (I would wager unlike all of us expressing our opinions here) has a firm grasp of the truth of Church canons, the struggles of gay/lesbian Orthodox in confession, and the truth of the workings of Christ in his own partnered relationship.

I believe gay/lesbian Christians have a point when they claim that what is condemned in the Bible and Patristic texts is neither identical with nor similar to the sort of long-term committed monogamous gay and lesbian partnerships that have sailed undetected under the general public's radar at least since the beginning of the 20th century and are now more publicly visible (though perhaps standing in the shadow of a more hedonistic so-called gay agenda which we no doubt all wish would fade away). Therefore it is my opinion that it is high time for the Church to at least re-evaluate the Biblical texts and historical canons on which current Church teaching rests. Though some of my best friends are straight  ;), let me add that heterosexuals would do well to remember that the current stance on divorce and remarriage within the Church was arrived at in just this manner. It was not a part of original Church doctrine though it now firmly stands within Church tradition.

In closing let state here, as I have done elsewhere, that I am not calling on the Church to rewrite its marriage ceremony and begin performing same-sex weddings--and would argue against anyone who did. 
 

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I understand what you're saying, but I am not sure there is really much to review without a slippery slope.  How many other things can we discuss in future society that is considered "what is condemned in the Bible and Patristic texts is neither identical with nor similar to the sort of long-term committed" relationships we can define?  Perhaps, it was a mistake for the Church to be relatively liberal on divorces?
 

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minasoliman said:
I understand what you're saying, but I am not sure there is really much to review without a slippery slope.  How many other things can we discuss in future society that is considered "what is condemned in the Bible and Patristic texts is neither identical with nor similar to the sort of long-term committed" relationships we can define?  Perhaps, it was a mistake for the Church to be relatively liberal on divorces?
Indeed, my own life and that of my mother are very difficult right now because my mother married my father without knowing he was a divorcee, and I am locked in battle royale with my non Christian half sisters, which is heartbreaking.  I do think the church should allow divorce and remarriage, but only for the reasons historically considered valid.  And divorce should be discouraged in the strongest possible way.  Remarriage should be done with the penitentially themed rite.

A particular sad thing occurs when a woman is divorced by her husband who becomes gay.  A good friend of mine growing up were our friends, a retired TWA pilot and his wife, a retired travel agent.  Then the retired TWA pilot in the early years of the internet got sucked into a homosexual relationship and left his wife.  Her hair color changed from blonde to grey when this happened.  It was so profoundly sad.  I love reproduction, but hate concupiscence.
 

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Unfortunately, for you: you do not run the church.  Divorce & re-marriage exist in the Orthodox Church.
 

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wgw said:
A particular sad thing occurs when a woman is divorced by her husband who becomes gay.  A good friend of mine growing up were our friends, a retired TWA pilot and his wife, a retired travel agent.  Then the retired TWA pilot in the early years of the internet got sucked into a homosexual relationship and left his wife.  Her hair color changed from blonde to grey when this happened.  It was so profoundly sad.  I love reproduction, but hate concupiscence.
There is, of course, another way to look at this tragedy. Perhaps the husband was gay all along and entered into marriage due to family or social pressure, which is not to say he didn't care strongly for his wife at the time they were married. This is precisely why my mother's sister's first marriage broke up. This was way back in the '50s, so one can hardly say that her husband was lured in by the internet or today's very visible 'gay lifestyle'. Though my aunt took this rather well, remarried and is still on good terms with her former husband, it is was quite a blow to my mother and her parents and is one of the reasons why I determined not to marry a woman.
 

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Orest said:
Unfortunately, for you: you do not run the church.  Divorce & re-marriage exist in the Orthodox Church.
They do...but is proper penance offered, or do some priests just allow remarriage without proper spiritual guidance?  I tend to think sometimes some people go on a hunt for a priest that has good connections that could allow him to remarry without all the penance involved.  At least this is my own personal experience in this.  We know what is "ideal", but do we actually strictly uphold it?
 

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FinnJames said:
seekeroftruth777 said:
you seem like a compassionate kind man finnjames may I ask what makes you so passionate on this one issue with the church?
Thank you for the question. In my view, it is far to easy to simply fall back on Church doctrine and condemn the website in question out of hand without giving the voices in it a fair hearing. They are, after all, not the voices coming to us in our Sunday homilies, nor are they the voices which we hear from the laity in our congregations. So I think we ought at least to listen to them before condemning them out of hand. Surely that is the Christ-like thing to do.

Presumably unlike most who have posted here, I have actually read everything on OrthodoxandGay.com, posted a few comments to it, and exchanged some emails with the man who keeps the website. He is a former Orthodox priest who now shares his life with a male partner so presumably (I would wager unlike all of us expressing our opinions here) has a firm grasp of the truth of Church canons, the struggles of gay/lesbian Orthodox in confession, and the truth of the workings of Christ in his own partnered relationship.

I believe gay/lesbian Christians have a point when they claim that what is condemned in the Bible and Patristic texts is neither identical with nor similar to the sort of long-term committed monogamous gay and lesbian partnerships that have sailed undetected under the general public's radar at least since the beginning of the 20th century and are now more publicly visible (though perhaps standing in the shadow of a more hedonistic so-called gay agenda which we no doubt all wish would fade away). Therefore it is my opinion that it is high time for the Church to at least re-evaluate the Biblical texts and historical canons on which current Church teaching rests. Though some of my best friends are straight  ;), let me add that heterosexuals would do well to remember that the current stance on divorce and remarriage within the Church was arrived at in just this manner. It was not a part of original Church doctrine though it now firmly stands within Church tradition.

In closing let state here, as I have done elsewhere, that I am not calling on the Church to rewrite its marriage ceremony and begin performing same-sex weddings--and would argue against anyone who did.
In other words, you would like the Church to edit, rather than deliver Christ's message.
 

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wgw said:
I do think the church should allow divorce and remarriage, but only for the reasons historically considered valid.
IOW, a woman doesn't get to divorce her husband for adultery. ::)

Thanks but no thanks.
 

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Papist said:
FinnJames said:
seekeroftruth777 said:
you seem like a compassionate kind man finnjames may I ask what makes you so passionate on this one issue with the church?
Thank you for the question. In my view, it is far to easy to simply fall back on Church doctrine and condemn the website in question out of hand without giving the voices in it a fair hearing. They are, after all, not the voices coming to us in our Sunday homilies, nor are they the voices which we hear from the laity in our congregations. So I think we ought at least to listen to them before condemning them out of hand. Surely that is the Christ-like thing to do.

Presumably unlike most who have posted here, I have actually read everything on OrthodoxandGay.com, posted a few comments to it, and exchanged some emails with the man who keeps the website. He is a former Orthodox priest who now shares his life with a male partner so presumably (I would wager unlike all of us expressing our opinions here) has a firm grasp of the truth of Church canons, the struggles of gay/lesbian Orthodox in confession, and the truth of the workings of Christ in his own partnered relationship.

I believe gay/lesbian Christians have a point when they claim that what is condemned in the Bible and Patristic texts is neither identical with nor similar to the sort of long-term committed monogamous gay and lesbian partnerships that have sailed undetected under the general public's radar at least since the beginning of the 20th century and are now more publicly visible (though perhaps standing in the shadow of a more hedonistic so-called gay agenda which we no doubt all wish would fade away). Therefore it is my opinion that it is high time for the Church to at least re-evaluate the Biblical texts and historical canons on which current Church teaching rests. Though some of my best friends are straight  ;), let me add that heterosexuals would do well to remember that the current stance on divorce and remarriage within the Church was arrived at in just this manner. It was not a part of original Church doctrine though it now firmly stands within Church tradition.

In closing let state here, as I have done elsewhere, that I am not calling on the Church to rewrite its marriage ceremony and begin performing same-sex weddings--and would argue against anyone who did.
In other words, you would like the Church to edit, rather than deliver Christ's message.
Please respond to what I wrote rather than what you imagine:
re- 'again'
evaluate 'to determine the significance or worth of something by careful appraisal and study'

So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.
 

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FinnJames said:
So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.
Do you believe that there's nothing in common between biblical texts and modern monogamous homosexual relationship?
 

Marc1152

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This guy isnt Orthodox but he is a bibilical scholar. He answers most of the hot button questions rather well:

Dr. Michael Brown - Answering the Tough Questions Asked by Homosexuals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3Mtgj5R2Qk
 

FinnJames

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Alpo said:
FinnJames said:
So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.
Do you believe that there's nothing in common between biblical texts and modern monogamous homosexual relationship?
I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.

There is actually a fairly large amount of scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that the biblical prohibitions were against probably passive anal sex in pagan temple cult prostitution, homosexual rape, and the like. That most (all?) of these works were written by scholars who are known or suspected to be homosexual has led many to ignore them out of hand since the authors 'must' be biased, have an axe to grind, be misinterpreting facts in a self-serving manner, etc. when they deviate from traditionally held opinions.

On the other hand--and I think this too is relevant--I know of no serious scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that there was any monogamous long-term committed same-sex pair in the scriptures equivalent to, say, my own 40-year-long partnership or the partnerships of the (ex?)Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.
 

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FinnJames said:
I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.
Why does everyone automatically assume that modern or contemporary scholarship leads to the correct or better answer than what we already have? 
 
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scamandrius said:
FinnJames said:
I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.
Why does everyone automatically assume that modern or contemporary scholarship leads to the correct or better answer than what we already have?
Because everyone likes to be their own authority and think they know through their text proofing and intellectualism what is the "truth" regarding the "Church. if you catch my drift.
 

Marc1152

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FinnJames said:
Alpo said:
FinnJames said:
So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.
Do you believe that there's nothing in common between biblical texts and modern monogamous homosexual relationship?
I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.

There is actually a fairly large amount of scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that the biblical prohibitions were against probably passive anal sex in pagan temple cult prostitution, homosexual rape, and the like. That most (all?) of these works were written by scholars who are known or suspected to be homosexual has led many to ignore them out of hand since the authors 'must' be biased, have an axe to grind, be misinterpreting facts in a self-serving manner, etc. when they deviate from traditionally held opinions.

On the other hand--and I think this too is relevant--I know of no serious scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that there was any monogamous long-term committed same-sex pair in the scriptures equivalent to, say, my own 40-year-long partnership or the partnerships of the (ex?)Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.
Here is a debate between Dr. Michael Brown and Matthew Vines who puts forward the same arguments you do in the post above..

Can You Be Gay and Christian? - Dr. Michael Brown debates Matthew Vines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-bTqIJP2JI
 

Marc1152

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FinnJames said:
Alpo said:
FinnJames said:
So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.
Do you believe that there's nothing in common between biblical texts and modern monogamous homosexual relationship?
I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.

There is actually a fairly large amount of scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that the biblical prohibitions were against probably passive anal sex in pagan temple cult prostitution, homosexual rape, and the like. That most (all?) of these works were written by scholars who are known or suspected to be homosexual has led many to ignore them out of hand since the authors 'must' be biased, have an axe to grind, be misinterpreting facts in a self-serving manner, etc. when they deviate from traditionally held opinions.

On the other hand--and I think this too is relevant--I know of no serious scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that there was any monogamous long-term committed same-sex pair in the scriptures equivalent to, say, my own 40-year-long partnership or the partnerships of the (ex?)Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.
Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.

In the book "A Few Good Men" published ten or fifteen years ago the author concluded that about 48% of Roman Catholic Priests were Gay... Clearly they are comfortable in Church.

What you are talking about are homosexuals who are steadfast that the Church conform to them rather than they conform to the Church, which forbids homosexual sex. Yes, that must be taxing.

I have known several Orthodox people who are not so recalcitrant and are struggling though their sexual desires. They are not so taxed as to stop going to Church.. No one said it would be easy. Christ saves us from our sins, not in our sins.. Real Christianity demands that we all change...

With that said, some people combine Church teaching with common bigotry. We also need to know where that line is and not cross it.
 
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Marc1152 said:
FinnJames said:
Alpo said:
FinnJames said:
So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.
Do you believe that there's nothing in common between biblical texts and modern monogamous homosexual relationship?
I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.

There is actually a fairly large amount of scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that the biblical prohibitions were against probably passive anal sex in pagan temple cult prostitution, homosexual rape, and the like. That most (all?) of these works were written by scholars who are known or suspected to be homosexual has led many to ignore them out of hand since the authors 'must' be biased, have an axe to grind, be misinterpreting facts in a self-serving manner, etc. when they deviate from traditionally held opinions.

On the other hand--and I think this too is relevant--I know of no serious scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that there was any monogamous long-term committed same-sex pair in the scriptures equivalent to, say, my own 40-year-long partnership or the partnerships of the (ex?)Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.
Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.

In the book "A Few Good Men" published ten or fifteen years ago the author concluded that about 48% of Roman Catholic Priests were Gay... Clearly they are comfortable in Church.

What you are talking about are homosexuals who are steadfast that the Church conform to them rather than they conform to the Church, which forbids homosexual sex. Yes, that must be taxing.

I have known several Orthodox people who are not so recalcitrant and are struggling though their sexual desires. They are not so taxed as to stop going to Church.. No one said it would be easy. Christ saves us from our sins, not in our sins.. Real Christianity demands that we all change...

With that said, some people combine Church teaching with common bigotry. We also need to know where that line is and not cross it.
Well where is the line drawn concerning Bigotry? at some point the church has to say no we will not conform to the lifestyles of the LGBT activists (not the average church goer struggling). It gets real tricky these days since almost anything is considered bigotry that the church represents in the public eyes on moral issues.
 

FinnJames

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seekeroftruth777 said:
Well where is the line drawn concerning Bigotry? at some point the church has to say no we will not conform to the lifestyles of the LGBT activists (not the average church goer struggling). It gets real tricky these days since almost anything is considered bigotry that the church represents in the public eyes on moral issues.
I know many find this issue quite threatening, but do you really think you're going to be invaded by people wanting to make you conform to the lifestyles of the LGBT activists?
 
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