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"I Waited Until My Wedding Night to Lose My Virginity, and I Wish I Hadn’t"

orthonorm

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Papist said:
The most insane thing about this article is that she identified her virginity with her identity. She is missing the entire point. All Christians are called to chastity, but that takes different forms given one's state in life. When single it means celibacy, but when married it means sexual fidelity to one's spouse. She got the wrong message. It's not that sex is bad, but abuse of sex is.
Sex is bad. Christians have sex in public? I don't think the blinds are there just to protect prying eyes. Sex is shameful. The question isn't whether or not it is shameful to have sex but how to understand the origins of the shame and how to best enjoy the shame which accompanies sex.
 

littlepilgrim64

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Papist said:
The most insane thing about this article is that she identified her virginity with her identity. She is missing the entire point. All Christians are called to chastity, but that takes different forms given one's state in life. When single it means celibacy, but when married it means sexual fidelity to one's spouse. She got the wrong message. It's not that sex is bad, but abuse of sex is.
+1
 

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It's honestly as simple as following the gospel and the teachings.  Pledges and all that are .. whatever.  Following God's will is where it is at.

At matrimony, the two become one flesh.  Yes, it is very important.  There are so many biblical warnings about fornication/adultery.  Also so many writings of EO saints warning of it.  Along with that it is a commandment.

It's a touchy subject but fornication can affect people in their marriages.  I have a friend who suffers knowing that his wife was not exactly a virgin.  There is a purity in the giving of herself to him and only him.  I don't think he reacts in a jealous way, nor does it consume him, but he has expressed that it bothers him fwiw. 

Perhaps we should look at St. Joseph and consider what he thought of the Mary before his dream. 
 

PeterTheAleut

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yeshuaisiam said:
It's honestly as simple as following the gospel and the teachings.  Pledges and all that are .. whatever.  Following God's will is where it is at.

At matrimony, the two become one flesh.  Yes, it is very important.   There are so many biblical warnings about fornication/adultery.  Also so many writings of EO saints warning of it.
It's easy to cite EO saints when they agree with you, isn't it, yesh? ;)
 

ialmisry

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Charles Martel said:
ialmisry said:
"When I have sex with my husband, I make sure it’s because I have a sexual need and not because I feel I’m required to fulfill his desires."
So, he's just a tool to fulfill her sexual needs, and that is progress.  OK.

"Your sexuality is nobody’s business but yours." Only if your masturbating, and some would dispute even then.  You don't have to listen to them though.
Onanism is a sin.........

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/onanism

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2940

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-teaching-on-masturbation.html
onanism is a renaissance neurosis-the term originates in the beginning of the 18th century advertising (an early informercial) "cures" for it and the "dangers" of it.  To go further into the Scholastics obsession on this would be a tangent, which has already been spun off many times.
 

Punch

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Let's face it, if you were not supposed to touch yourself, you would not have been created to be able to touch the parts that feel good.
 

gzt

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I don't think having sex before marriage would have made a difference without different catechesis, but then with different catechesis, this may not have been a problem. There are a lot of unfortunate things going on here, but I don't see how "doin' it" earlier in life would have solved them.
 

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gzt said:
I don't think having sex before marriage would have made a difference without different catechesis, but then with different catechesis, this may not have been a problem. There are a lot of unfortunate things going on here, but I don't see how "doin' it" earlier in life would have solved them.
I don't know if it would have solved her problem, but I can't help it might have solved the poor husband's problem of having married a woman with all these issues. In fact, I'm scared out of my mind of marrying a woman and waiting till the marriage, and finding out she has some issue like this.
 

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zaphod said:
gzt said:
I don't think having sex before marriage would have made a difference without different catechesis, but then with different catechesis, this may not have been a problem. There are a lot of unfortunate things going on here, but I don't see how "doin' it" earlier in life would have solved them.
I don't know if it would have solved her problem, but I can't help it might have solved the poor husband's problem of having married a woman with all these issues. In fact, I'm scared out of my mind of marrying a woman and waiting till the marriage, and finding out she has some issue like this.
One thing that may help is to actually talk, at some point, to the woman you are thinking of marrying.
 

Jonathan Gress

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Sex takes practice, so many couples who save themselves for marriage find their wedding night experience rather disappointing. It seems to me the solution is not to make such a big deal out of it. There seems to be this cultural expectation that honeymoon sex needs to be mindblowingly awesome, i.e. confident and well-practiced, rather than an opportunity to get to know each other intimately for the first time. If Christian couples had more realistic expectations about the first time, they wouldn't be so disappointed.

Another thing to remember is that many couples who have cohabited for a long time before marriage find that, soon after the wedding, they rapidly lose interest in each other. This is, of course, to be expected as couples become more familiar; a lot of sexual desire arises out of the novelty of your first experience with your partner. But it shows that not waiting until marriage isn't exactly a surefire solution to the problem of awkward honeymoon sex.

Finally, the author does seem clueless about traditional Christian moral teaching if she believes that men are not expected to uphold the same standards of chastity as women. The "double standard" appears to be a common cultural phenomenon, but has nothing to do with Christianity and everything to do with the different sexual natures of men and women (men are, to put it bluntly, more susceptible to the passion of lust than women).
 

Agabus

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Jonathan Gress said:
(men are, to put it bluntly, more susceptible to the passion of lust than women).
Ah, yes, it was 100 million men who bought copies of 50 Shades of Grey.
 

Alpo

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Jonathan Gress said:
Sex takes practice, so many couples who save themselves for marriage find their wedding night experience rather disappointing. It seems to me the solution is not to make such a big deal out of it. There seems to be this cultural expectation that honeymoon sex needs to be mindblowingly awesome, i.e. confident and well-practiced, rather than an opportunity to get to know each other intimately for the first time. If Christian couples had more realistic expectations about the first time, they wouldn't be so disappointed.
While I agree with basically everything you wrote IMO this is basically a failed task. Christians have too long been part of this suberb honeymoon narrative. These kind of internalized ideas won't just go away easily.

As for men being more lustful, have you ever actually talked with women?  :p
 

Jonathan Gress

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Alpo said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Sex takes practice, so many couples who save themselves for marriage find their wedding night experience rather disappointing. It seems to me the solution is not to make such a big deal out of it. There seems to be this cultural expectation that honeymoon sex needs to be mindblowingly awesome, i.e. confident and well-practiced, rather than an opportunity to get to know each other intimately for the first time. If Christian couples had more realistic expectations about the first time, they wouldn't be so disappointed.
While I agree with basically everything you wrote IMO this is basically a failed task. Christians have too long been part of this suberb honeymoon narrative. These kind of internalized ideas won't just go away easily.

As for men being more lustful, have you ever actually talked with women?  :p
Yes, in fact I'm even married to one. ;)
 

Jonathan Gress

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Alpo said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Sex takes practice, so many couples who save themselves for marriage find their wedding night experience rather disappointing. It seems to me the solution is not to make such a big deal out of it. There seems to be this cultural expectation that honeymoon sex needs to be mindblowingly awesome, i.e. confident and well-practiced, rather than an opportunity to get to know each other intimately for the first time. If Christian couples had more realistic expectations about the first time, they wouldn't be so disappointed.
While I agree with basically everything you wrote IMO this is basically a failed task. Christians have too long been part of this suberb honeymoon narrative. These kind of internalized ideas won't just go away easily.

As for men being more lustful, have you ever actually talked with women?  :p
Also, did you mean "superb" or "suburb"?
 

Alpo

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LOL. I meant "superb". Pardon for broken English.
 

Alpo

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Jonathan Gress said:
Alpo said:
LOL. I meant "superb". Pardon for broken English.
No worries. Your English is certainly not "broken". :)
Thanks.  I sometimes wonder how my English seems like for a native speaker. It's a shame really that I don't have any English-speaking friends. It would be nice to learn the language from someone who doesn't speak it as as second language.
 

Jonathan Gress

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Alpo said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Alpo said:
LOL. I meant "superb". Pardon for broken English.
No worries. Your English is certainly not "broken". :)
Thanks.  I sometimes wonder how my English seems like for a native speaker. It's a shame really that I don't have any English-speaking friends. It would be nice to learn the language from someone who doesn't speak it as as second language.
I suppose I can spot the occasional error, but really your English is very impressive for a non-native speaker who apparently doesn't have any native-speaker friends! I guess that's typical for a Nordic these days. ;)
 

littlepilgrim64

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gzt said:
zaphod said:
gzt said:
I don't think having sex before marriage would have made a difference without different catechesis, but then with different catechesis, this may not have been a problem. There are a lot of unfortunate things going on here, but I don't see how "doin' it" earlier in life would have solved them.
I don't know if it would have solved her problem, but I can't help it might have solved the poor husband's problem of having married a woman with all these issues. In fact, I'm scared out of my mind of marrying a woman and waiting till the marriage, and finding out she has some issue like this.
One thing that may help is to actually talk, at some point, to the woman you are thinking of marrying.
Yes . . Communication, communication, communication before getting married.
 

Jonathan Gress

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littlepilgrim64 said:
gzt said:
zaphod said:
gzt said:
I don't think having sex before marriage would have made a difference without different catechesis, but then with different catechesis, this may not have been a problem. There are a lot of unfortunate things going on here, but I don't see how "doin' it" earlier in life would have solved them.
I don't know if it would have solved her problem, but I can't help it might have solved the poor husband's problem of having married a woman with all these issues. In fact, I'm scared out of my mind of marrying a woman and waiting till the marriage, and finding out she has some issue like this.
One thing that may help is to actually talk, at some point, to the woman you are thinking of marrying.
Yes . . Communication, communication, communication before getting married.
Agreed. Some of the problem does seem to arise out of the idealization of virginity that extends to punishing even open discussion of sex. It's as if we're supposed to be blissfully ignorant of all things sexual until our wedding, after which we miraculously turn into sex experts! Of course, it doesn't work like that in the real world. Men and women who are intending to get married need to know about what sex involves beforehand and be clear of any illusions and unrealistic expectations.
 

vamrat

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Alpo said:
Jonathan Gress said:
Alpo said:
LOL. I meant "superb". Pardon for broken English.
No worries. Your English is certainly not "broken". :)
Thanks.  I sometimes wonder how my English seems like for a native speaker. It's a shame really that I don't have any English-speaking friends. It would be nice to learn the language from someone who doesn't speak it as as second language.
You'd prolly talk much badder.  ESL's tend to learn the language weller than us native folk does.

And I am sure you speak English far better than I do Finn! (Jaakari talvisota suomi konapistooli!)
 

Second Chance

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Jonathan Gress said:
littlepilgrim64 said:
gzt said:
zaphod said:
gzt said:
I don't think having sex before marriage would have made a difference without different catechesis, but then with different catechesis, this may not have been a problem. There are a lot of unfortunate things going on here, but I don't see how "doin' it" earlier in life would have solved them.
I don't know if it would have solved her problem, but I can't help it might have solved the poor husband's problem of having married a woman with all these issues. In fact, I'm scared out of my mind of marrying a woman and waiting till the marriage, and finding out she has some issue like this.
One thing that may help is to actually talk, at some point, to the woman you are thinking of marrying.
Yes . . Communication, communication, communication before getting married.
Agreed. Some of the problem does seem to arise out of the idealization of virginity that extends to punishing even open discussion of sex. It's as if we're supposed to be blissfully ignorant of all things sexual until our wedding, after which we miraculously turn into sex experts! Of course, it doesn't work like that in the real world. Men and women who are intending to get married need to know about what sex involves beforehand and be clear of any illusions and unrealistic expectations.
CAVEAT: I want to make it crystal clear that I do not advocate the following practice.

The Amish and Mennonites in Netherlands had a couple of interesting cathechetical tools in this regard. First, an engaged couple were allowed to sleep together, but with a board between them to ensure that they do not engage in intercourse. Second, the engaged couples did not get married until the young lady had become pregnant.  :laugh: :police: :angel:
 

Alpo

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vamrat said:
And I am sure you speak English far better than I do Finn! (Jaakari talvisota suomi konapistooli!)
I can't teach you lots of obscenities in Finnish. With those you can impress your friends with mastery of an exotic language, convince your Protestant relatives that you are a born-again Christian by speaking in tongues and swear without your priest noticing it.
 

Jonathan Gress

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Jonathan Gress said:
littlepilgrim64 said:
gzt said:
zaphod said:
gzt said:
I don't think having sex before marriage would have made a difference without different catechesis, but then with different catechesis, this may not have been a problem. There are a lot of unfortunate things going on here, but I don't see how "doin' it" earlier in life would have solved them.
I don't know if it would have solved her problem, but I can't help it might have solved the poor husband's problem of having married a woman with all these issues. In fact, I'm scared out of my mind of marrying a woman and waiting till the marriage, and finding out she has some issue like this.
One thing that may help is to actually talk, at some point, to the woman you are thinking of marrying.
Yes . . Communication, communication, communication before getting married.
Agreed. Some of the problem does seem to arise out of the idealization of virginity that extends to punishing even open discussion of sex. It's as if we're supposed to be blissfully ignorant of all things sexual until our wedding, after which we miraculously turn into sex experts! Of course, it doesn't work like that in the real world. Men and women who are intending to get married need to know about what sex involves beforehand and be clear of any illusions and unrealistic expectations.
CAVEAT: I want to make it crystal clear that I do not advocate the following practice.

The Amish and Mennonites in Netherlands had a couple of interesting cathechetical tools in this regard. First, an engaged couple were allowed to sleep together, but with a board between them to ensure that they do not engage in intercourse. Second, the engaged couples did not get married until the young lady had become pregnant.  :laugh: :police: :angel:
I've heard about those "bed courtships". I honestly don't understand what they are supposed to achieve, unless there's some poorly communicated expectation that the couple will "explore" each other without engaging in full intercourse and so learn at least some practical things about sex before fully committing to each other. Otherwise, if you really want the couple to remain chaste as traditionally understood, a board is hardly going to make a difference if they are left alone in the same room together overnight (unless there's something about Amish bed design I don't know).

Another issue I suspect is simply that, when knowledge of sex is as circumscribed as it is in traditionally Christian cultures, expectations of performance are correspondingly low. In our era of sex aids and manuals and free pornography, everyone expects fireworks in the bedroom.
 

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The article sounds as if this woman's identity was based on being a virgin, that her Christianity was defined by her virginity, that her virginity was sustained by her perception of sex as "dirty" and "sinful".  Consequently, once she lost her virginity she naturally felt dirty and her Christian identity based on her virginity fell apart.  She then went to "therapy" in which she was likely told that all forms of self-denial and repression are bad and unhealthy and so now she is preaching the gospel of modern psychology that we should indulge our passions in the quest for self-satisfaction rather than restrain our passions out of love for and obedience to Christ.

It is bizarre for this woman to think that sex before marriage would have been good for her.  Sure, she may not have had these particular problems, but she would simply trade one set of problems for another.

All forms of sexual activity, including masturbation, both before marriage and outside of marriage are sins that cut us off from Christ, keep us from receiving Holy Communion, and deprive us of the grace of God.  All such sexual sins should be confessed, repented of, and penanced according to the canons.  Celibacy before marriage and chastity in marriage cannot be maintained in a healthy and beneficial way outside of living an active Orthodox lifestyle by participating in the mysteries, maintaining a prayerful lifestyle, and engaging in an ascetical struggle against all of the passions. 

Ascetical struggle is required of all Christians, but we have to understand why we abstain from certain things at certain times and for what purpose.  The same action can be either pleasing to God or displeasing to God based on a person's understanding and intention.  For instance, in the Scriptures we find both praise for those who refrain from marriage and remain virgins for the sake of God, as well as condemnation for those who "forbid to marry" as teaching "doctrines of demons".  It is not the action (virginity) that is pleasing to God by itself, but rather the good action (virginity) embraced in a God-pleasing manner.

 

Jonathan Gress

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Struggle against the passions does help to put struggle with lust in a broader context: if our minds are clouded by things of this world, we can't hope to have room for God. Too many people, however, think more in terms of ritual purity, and unfortunately a lot of traditional language about sex can give rise to that kind of misinterpretation: we talk about staying "pure" and not "defiling" ourselves with fornication. It's not surprising that many people who are not fluent in the language of struggle and asceticism come away with the impression that sex is "dirty", which is not what the Church intends us to think.
 

NicholasMyra

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jah777 said:
Celibacy before marriage and chastity in marriage cannot be maintained in a healthy and beneficial way outside of living an active Orthodox lifestyle by participating in the mysteries, maintaining a prayerful lifestyle, and engaging in an ascetical struggle against all of the passions.  
Never been any healthy or chaste people outside of Orthodoxy? In any respect?

Oh, Jah.

If moderation was not so lax...

Also, Orthodox lifestyle?
 

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"Celibacy before marriage and chastity in marriage cannot be maintained in a healthy and beneficial way outside of living an active Orthodox lifestyle by participating in the mysteries, maintaining a prayerful lifestyle, and engaging in an ascetical struggle against all of the passions."


This is the biggest crock of bull that I have read in a while (or rather, at least since the sex while fasting thread).  I will believe this when all of my Lutheran, Roman Catholic and Hindu friends have affairs and none of my Orthodox friends end up divorced.  I am not holding my breath. 
 

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Punch said:
"Celibacy before marriage and chastity in marriage cannot be maintained in a healthy and beneficial way outside of living an active Orthodox lifestyle by participating in the mysteries, maintaining a prayerful lifestyle, and engaging in an ascetical struggle against all of the passions."


This is the biggest crock of bull that I have read in a while (or rather, at least since the sex while fasting thread).  I will believe this when all of my Lutheran, Roman Catholic and Hindu friends have affairs and none of my Orthodox friends end up divorced.  I am not holding my breath. 
They are Orthodox and just didn't know it.  ;)
 

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TheTrisagion said:
Punch said:
"Celibacy before marriage and chastity in marriage cannot be maintained in a healthy and beneficial way outside of living an active Orthodox lifestyle by participating in the mysteries, maintaining a prayerful lifestyle, and engaging in an ascetical struggle against all of the passions."


This is the biggest crock of bull that I have read in a while (or rather, at least since the sex while fasting thread).  I will believe this when all of my Lutheran, Roman Catholic and Hindu friends have affairs and none of my Orthodox friends end up divorced.  I am not holding my breath. 
They are Orthodox and just didn't know it.  ;)
All conversions are just reversions to the state into which they born.
 

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Agabus said:
Jonathan Gress said:
(men are, to put it bluntly, more susceptible to the passion of lust than women).
Ah, yes, it was 100 million men who bought copies of 50 Shades of Grey.
Men bought plenty of porn before that.
 

Mor Ephrem

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biro said:
Agabus said:
Jonathan Gress said:
(men are, to put it bluntly, more susceptible to the passion of lust than women).
Ah, yes, it was 100 million men who bought copies of 50 Shades of Grey.
Men bought plenty of porn before that.
I suppose that was all gay porn.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
If moderation was not so lax...
If this was a criticism or complaint of forum moderation publicly, then I prefer you do not engage in this again.  And that goes for anyone else.  If you have a problem with moderation, you can send us a PM, or if there is a problem with someone's post that breaks the rules of the forum, then report the post.  Otherwise, I personally will not tolerate this in my section.  As the rules mention:

Please respect the mod/admin staff -- The moderators and administrative staff of oc.net keep this place running tidy.  While you don't have to agree with a particular decision they make, we ask that you at least respect it publicly.  Do not complain about forum moderation, or the specific official actions taken by the moderators, global moderators, or administrators, on the forum.

Thank you and God bless.

Mina
 

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jah777 said:
...

... Celibacy before marriage and chastity in marriage cannot be maintained in a healthy and beneficial way outside of living an active Orthodox lifestyle by participating in the mysteries, maintaining a prayerful lifestyle, and engaging in an ascetical struggle against all of the passions.

...
I was celibate and chaste for fifteen years outside the Church. I don't insist this was as healthful for me as for an Orthodox monk; I don't know.
 

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biro said:
Agabus said:
Jonathan Gress said:
(men are, to put it bluntly, more susceptible to the passion of lust than women).
Ah, yes, it was 100 million men who bought copies of 50 Shades of Grey.
Men bought plenty of porn before that.
Why would men buy porn when it is free on the internet?
 

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TheTrisagion said:
Why would men buy porn when it is free on the internet?
My gram used to say often: "A fool perv and his money are easily parted."
 
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