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Icons of the Church-Ark and of the councils

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Iconodule

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According to a priest on another forum, he witnessed the iconographer painting while listening to Rush Limbaugh on the radio.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Iconodule said:
According to a priest on another forum, he witnessed the iconographer painting while listening to Rush Limbaugh on the radio.
That explains the big-mouthed, demonic whale at bottom right.
 

Iconodule

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Ouch!

When I visited the Tretyakov gallery, I did see a precursor of this image, onshore heretics and all, which was dated to the 17th or 18th century. Unfortunately I couldn't get a picture of it and I can't find images online of it.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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I wonder who the everyone is in that one.  Is the second heretic from the left supposed to be a "Monophysite" in an Armenian cowl?
 

Iconodule

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I don't know. Pointy cowls though do appear on icons of saints though, e.g. Saint Ephraim of Syria.
 

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Iconodule said:
According to a priest on another forum, he witnessed the iconographer painting while listening to Rush Limbaugh on the radio.
I suppose someone has to give Monastery Icons a run for their money on profanation.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Iconodule said:
I don't know. Pointy cowls though do appear on icons of saints though, e.g. Saint Ephraim of Syria.
I was just guessing, because on a similar, modern icon in another thread, there was a cowled figure that was labeled as a "Monophysite".  I'm not bothered or anything.  :)

Agabus said:
Iconodule said:
According to a priest on another forum, he witnessed the iconographer painting while listening to Rush Limbaugh on the radio.
I suppose someone has to give Monastery Icons a run for their money on profanation.
 

rakovsky

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Papist said:
Papist said:
hecma925 said:
I want them to issue a stamp with this:

In the iconographer's mind, the "ecumenists" with the monk's cowl would probably not be M-n-physites, but rather people in the EO Church who were ecumenists and wanted to intercommune with the M-n-physites. In the more conservative EOs' minds, the M-n-physites would be in the heretics camp for denying the Truth of two natures in one hypostasis.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Is the "Assembly of Heretics" represented by that one guy in the mitre with the red demon egging him on, hands on shoulders?  And is the archer in Rush's mouth with the vaguely Islamic hat supposed to be Muhammad?  The guys riding lions are pretty cool (I guess they're the anti-Christ's retinue?), as is the fact that Luther has grown a beard and is packing heat!  ;)
 

LBK

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Papist said:
hecma925 said:
I want them to issue a stamp with this:

I MUST have a copy of that icon!
Ain't no icon, that. It's schlock.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11209.msg297730.html#msg297730

And there's more on that thread about it.
 

Alpo

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Papist said:
Papist said:
hecma925 said:
I want them to issue a stamp with this:

I MUST have a copy of that icon!
Well, I would have to change the Pope part, but otherwise, this is awesome.
You coul think of it Pope Honorius. IIRC he's a heretic for you guys too.
 

Iconodule

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LBK said:
Papist said:
hecma925 said:
I want them to issue a stamp with this:

I MUST have a copy of that icon!
Ain't no icon, that. It's schlock.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11209.msg297730.html#msg297730

And there's more on that thread about it.
LBK said:
No, that icon should not be venerated. It is simply a polemical propaganda piece, promoting a particular ecclesiopolitical ideology
 

LBK

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Iconodule said:
LBK said:
Papist said:
hecma925 said:
I want them to issue a stamp with this:

I MUST have a copy of that icon!
Ain't no icon, that. It's schlock.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11209.msg297730.html#msg297730

And there's more on that thread about it.
LBK said:
No, that icon should not be venerated. It is simply a polemical propaganda piece, promoting a particular ecclesiopolitical ideology
Nice try, but way off the mark.

The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
 

Iconodule

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Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
 

LBK

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Iconodule said:
Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
There is nothing edifying or of doctrinal worth in that image, it is simply a piece of propaganda, just as are "icons" of St Tikhon of Moscow trampling on Metropolitan Sergius dressed as a Soviet komissar under his vestments.

There's no way either image will become the subject of liturgical commemoration.

 

Iconodule

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LBK said:
Iconodule said:
Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
There is nothing edifying or of doctrinal worth in that image, it is simply a piece of propaganda, just as are "icons" of St Tikhon of Moscow trampling on Metropolitan Sergius dressed as a Soviet komissar under his vestments.
And there is nothing edifying about an icon falsely conflating Dioscorus and Eutyches. And yet...

Is your problem with the Ark of Salvation icon specifically the inclusion of ecumenists?

 

LBK

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Iconodule said:
LBK said:
Iconodule said:
Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
There is nothing edifying or of doctrinal worth in that image, it is simply a piece of propaganda, just as are "icons" of St Tikhon of Moscow trampling on Metropolitan Sergius dressed as a Soviet komissar under his vestments.
And there is nothing edifying about an icon falsely conflating Dioscorus and Eutyches.
I'm content to defer to the Fathers of the Council in their wisdom, to the wisdom of the Church which saw it fit to commemorate the Council and which, through the hymns of this feast, clearly denounces those who promoted heresy.

Iconodule said:
Is your problem with the Ark of Salvation icon specifically the inclusion of ecumenists?
There are all sorts of problems with the image called "The Ark of Salvation". The presence of "ecumenists" (whatever that word means) is just one aspect of its errors:

LBK said:
No, that icon should not be venerated. It is simply a polemical propaganda piece, promoting a particular ecclesiopolitical ideology. Some food for thought:

Iconography is, above all else, concerned with the revelation of God in Trinity: of the incarnation of the Son and Word of God which has allowed the sanctification of fallen creation (matter), including humanity (made in the image of God)**; of the signs and wonders of the Divine revelation in both the Old and New Testament periods; and, in its portrayal of the saints, their transfiguration from mere men and women into those who have attained deification, a "oneness with God" and full participation of the heavenly life with God and in God, through the conduct of their earthly lives and their steadfast witness to the true faith. They have become true icons and reflections of the Divine. The word godly is most apt to describe them.

(** St John of Damascus sums this up beautifully: "Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.")

Secondly, in the same way that the saints have obliterated their passions to give themselves completely to God, icons must also reflect this dispassionate quality. Obvious displays of human emotions, even a “positive” one such as laughter, are considered to be manifestations of human passion, and therefore have no place in iconography. Christ’s kingdom is “not of this world” (John 18: 36), therefore the portrayal of saints in their spiritually transformed state must be dispassionate. This also applies to church singing and reading; the singers and readers are there to glorify God and serve the church by their efforts, not to self-aggrandise. Even the display of sorrow in the face of a saint or the Mother of God should be kept subtle, with the emotion conveyed with the eyes, not through histrionics.

Thirdly, there must be complete agreement between scripture, liturgical content (which represents the distillation of the doctrinal, dogmatic and theological position of the Church), and the pictorial content of an icon for any icon to be deemed canonical.

Hence there is no place for ugliness, anger, enmity, and other negative emotions in iconography. The purpose of an icon is to draw us closer to God. Of course, there are specific examples of didactic icons, such as Last Judgement and Ladder of Divine Ascent which feature fearsome dragon-like creatures swallowing unrepentant evildoers. The Resurrection icon shows the personification of sin and death bound in chains in the abyss. It may be said, therefore, if there is room for such portrayals in these canonical icons, then why object to the presence of the figures in the Ark of Salvation image?

I offer this reply: An icon is a material, tangible expression of the incarnate God. The iconographic portrayal of the saints as icons of Christ, then, should reflect the sanctity, dispassion and boundless compassionate mercy of Christ to those who repent of their sins. Do we not pray to the saints and the Mother of God to intercede on our behalf? Are we not exhorted to pray for our enemies, to love them, and not to hate them? Of all scripture passages on this theme, Matt. 5: 43-48 is perhaps the most useful and succinct:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

We are also assured that God is Love, and that His love and mercy are available to all who seek Him in true faith. There are petitions in various Orthodox litanies which ask for the repentance and return to the true faith of sinners, apostates, and, yes, enemies. One which immediately comes to mind is "Let us pray for those who love us, and those who hate us", a petition in the litany sung towards the end of the Great Compline services of Great Lent where the Canon of St Andrew of Crete is sung.

There is the question of the iconographic portrayal of prophets and saints who denounced kings and princes. Such scenes are found in the smaller panels of a "life" icon of a saint or prophet (an icon which has a large central panel of the saint or prophet, surrounded by a series of smaller panels showing scenes of his or her life). Keeping to the dispassionate nature of icons, these scenes of rebuke of kings and princes (such as in icons of Prophet Elijah, and any number of OT and NT saints and righteous ones) show the saint standing before the errant ruler with a hand raised in rebuke, but nothing more. It is also significant that such scenes, almost without exception, are never used as icons in their own right.

it is not surprising that certain schismatic groups have favoured this so-called Ark of Salvation image as it reflects their particular ideology. This image suggests that those who are not Orthodox are somehow beyond repentance and redemption. Can we really agree with this as Orthodox Christians? The persecuting Pharisee Saul openly boasted of his zeal and success in persecuting Christians, yet, by the grace of God, became one of the Princes of the Apostles, a pillar of Orthodoxy. There are also innumerable converts to the Orthodox faith who have come from every religious background imaginable, including atheism, paganism and communism; many who have become saints, in times of old, and in our present day. The grace of God knows no bounds.

Iconography, as I have said before, must never be used for political or ideological purposes. To portray the non-Orthodox as a whole as being irredeemable and in league with demonic and evil forces to destroy Orthodoxy is a shameful debasement of iconography. I am reminded of a reply to a convert to Orthodoxy as to how he came to the conclusion that the Orthodox faith was the true faith: "The Soviet Union was capable of destroying anything. Yet, despite its immense power and resources, it could not destroy the Orthodox Church. So that was good enough for me." The gates of hell cannot prevail, indeed ...
 

Iconodule

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What are your credentials for fabricating these criteria?
 

WPM

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I think its reasoning in a fictional context because you have to come up with something to type in.
 

Iconodule

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LBK said:
I'm content to defer to the Fathers of the Council in their wisdom
Then you should defer to their judgment that Dioscorus was not deposed for the faith but for disciplinary reasons.
 

LBK

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Iconodule said:
LBK said:
I'm content to defer to the Fathers of the Council in their wisdom
Then you should defer to their judgment that Dioscorus was not deposed for the faith but for disciplinary reasons.
Which does not in any way make any difference to whether the Council and its Fathers and rulings should be commemorated liturgically. Or are you trying to say that the Church erred in doing so? Because either that is your position, or you are simply carrying on yet another bout of contrarianism.  ::)
 

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Iconodule said:
What are your credentials for fabricating these criteria?
PtA, is that you?  :-X
 

Iconodule

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LBK said:
Iconodule said:
What are your credentials for fabricating these criteria?
PtA, is that you?  :-X
In your ongoing effort to promote your personal preferences as canon, you routinely appeal to citations of... you. No citations of existing canons, iconographic manuals, patristics. Just "Thus saith LBK". You clearly expect us to defer to you as an established authority. So it's fair to ask what you have done to earn this authority. If the question makes you uneasy, though, feel free to evade it with more snark.
 

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LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
 

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Iconodule said:
Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
It could if it was a historical event. It's awesome but IMO not really an icon as we are  to believe in God and Saints rather than this or that set of doctrines.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
It could if it was a historical event. It's awesome but IMO not really an icon as we are  to believe in God and Saints rather than this or that set of doctrines.
Wait, you mean the events depicted in that icon didn't actually happen?!?  Even Bearded Cowboy Luther and the Muslim Archer in Rush Limbaugh's mouth?  Imagine my disappointment.  :'(
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
Nice try, but no.  We're not talking about how you interpret the "etymology and essence" of the word heresy.  We're talking about its generally accepted definition, "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine".  Further, the primary definition of the term "repudiate" is "to deny the truth or validity of", as in repudiating a theological error, such as Monophysitism.  "Not answering summons" is not a theological position which can be "repudiated".  It's a disciplinary matter.  So I'll ask again, what were the specific heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?
 

Iconodule

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Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
It could if it was a historical event.
Not one particular event, but it does depict history, which is perhaps more than can be said for such common icons as the Ladder of Divine Ascent or the Publican and the Pharisee.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
He was deposed on disciplinary grounds. If that makes him a heretic, then so was Saint John Chrysostom.
 

Alpo

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
Ah, so if at some point this "Ark of Salvation" gets a feast day the icon suddenly becomes okay.
It could if it was a historical event. It's awesome but IMO not really an icon as we are  to believe in God and Saints rather than this or that set of doctrines.
Wait, you mean the events depicted in that icon didn't actually happen?!?  Even Bearded Cowboy Luther and the Muslim Archer in Rush Limbaugh's mouth?  Imagine my disappointment.  :'(
It would make an awesome play for 'Odox sunday school play though. Kids would love it.
 

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Iconodule said:
LBK said:
I'm content to defer to the Fathers of the Council in their wisdom
Then you should defer to their judgment that Dioscorus was not deposed for the faith but for disciplinary reasons.
I was in an OCA church one summer evening for Vespers and that icon was on the stand, a fact I didn't realise until I'd already made my bows and was about to kiss the icon.  I read the Greek at the top, thought "Uh oh", found St Dioscoros, covered the little demon on his shoulder with my thumb, and kissed him.  The priest looked at me quizzically. 
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Antonious Nikolas said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
Nice try, but no.  We're not talking about how you interpret the "etymology and essence" of the word heresy.  We're talking about its generally accepted definition, "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine".  Further, the primary definition of the term "repudiate" is "to deny the truth or validity of", as in repudiating a theological error, such as Monophysitism.  "Not answering summons" is not a theological position which can be "repudiated".  It's a disciplinary matter.  So I'll ask again, what were the specific heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?
Heresy in Greek means a choice. He choose to reject the Church's authority. That, in the literal sense of the word is a heresy. Apart from that, he didn't do anything wrong accept cling to his own individual opinions.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Iconodule said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
He was deposed on disciplinary grounds. If that makes him a heretic, then so was Saint John Chrysostom.
You're good at making strawmen arguments. I'll make note of that. Once someone loses their teaching authority, they lose their teaching authority. St. Cyprian  says this in his "Unity of the Catholic Church" against Novatian.
 

Iconodule

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
Nice try, but no.  We're not talking about how you interpret the "etymology and essence" of the word heresy.  We're talking about its generally accepted definition, "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine".  Further, the primary definition of the term "repudiate" is "to deny the truth or validity of", as in repudiating a theological error, such as Monophysitism.  "Not answering summons" is not a theological position which can be "repudiated".  It's a disciplinary matter.  So I'll ask again, what were the specific heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?
Heresy in Greek means a choice. He choose to reject the Church's authority. That, in the literal sense of the word is a heresy. Apart from that, he didn't do anything wrong accept cling to his own individual opinions.
What exactly constitutes "the Church's authority" at a given time is pretty dubious, as Dioscorus' own "ecumenical council" at Ephesus in 449 shows.
 

Iconodule

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Iconodule said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
He was deposed on disciplinary grounds. If that makes him a heretic, then so was Saint John Chrysostom.
You're good at making strawmen arguments. I'll make note of that. Once someone loses their teaching authority, they lose their teaching authority.
What strawman? It's quite apposite to what you're saying even now. Chrysostom lost his teaching authority at the Synod of the Oak. He did not recognize this decision and continued to teach. Such occurrences were common for great church teachers of the time, who ruffled the wrong feathers and were deposed and exiled by powerful enemies. History vindicated them, but often only after their deaths. So what heresy exactly are you accusing Dioscorus of again?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Iconodule said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Iconodule said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
He was deposed on disciplinary grounds. If that makes him a heretic, then so was Saint John Chrysostom.
You're good at making strawmen arguments. I'll make note of that. Once someone loses their teaching authority, they lose their teaching authority.
What strawman? It's quite apposite to what you're saying even now. Chrysostom lost his teaching authority at the Synod of the Oak. He did not recognize this decision and continued to teach. Such occurrences were common for great church teachers of the time, who ruffled the wrong feathers and were deposed and exiled by powerful enemies. History vindicated them, but often only after their deaths. So what heresy exactly are you accusing Dioscorus of again?
Non-ring-kissingism.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
LBK said:
The Fathers of the Fourth Ecumenical Council are commemorated liturgically by the EO Church in mid-July, and Dioscorus and Eutyches, are shown in the icon as stripped of their clerical ranks, symbolic of the repudiation of that Council of their heresies.
What specifically were the heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Thank you.
Well, to not submit to the Church's teaching authority. That's the etymology and essence of the word heresy in Greek.
Nice try, but no.  We're not talking about how you interpret the "etymology and essence" of the word heresy.  We're talking about its generally accepted definition, "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine".  Further, the primary definition of the term "repudiate" is "to deny the truth or validity of", as in repudiating a theological error, such as Monophysitism.  "Not answering summons" is not a theological position which can be "repudiated".  It's a disciplinary matter.  So I'll ask again, what were the specific heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?
Heresy in Greek means a choice. He choose to reject the Church's authority. That, in the literal sense of the word is a heresy. Apart from that, he didn't do anything wrong accept cling to his own individual opinions.
Playing semantic games won't help you, honey.  Lady literally means "bread maker" and gymnasium literally means "a place to train naked".  Try that at Planet Fitness and let me know how that works out for you.  We all know the literal meaning of the term heresy in Greek.  That doesn't mean that a figure deposed for disciplinary reasons is properly understood to be advancing a heresy which needs to be repudiated.  So I'll ask again, what were the specific heresies of St. Dioscoros that were repudiated by the Council of Chalcedon?  Maybe LBK will actually chime in this time.
 
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